Tooley TFS 220's vs 235's on 408 - Page 2 - LS1TECH - Camaro and Firebird Forum Discussion

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Tooley TFS 220's vs 235's on 408

 
Old 01-11-2019, 06:33 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by JakeFusion View Post
That cam might be suited for a big shot of nitrous. How much are you spraying? If you're trying to spray 300, that cam would be good. But the exhaust port will need some work.

As far as the cam, it's designed for an LS3 head. And it's sort of a lot overlap for such an early IVC. Cathedral heads need overlap... but also need later intake closing points as they don't flow like an LS3 head. LS3 heads make power and are sensitive to overlap, so you usually undersize the intake duration and add exhaust duration to help them (generally speaking - exhaust flow sucks in comparison to cathedral with that big intake taking up so much space). But Blah blah. Cathedral heads make power with toasters for cams, so it'll work. I would have probably tried a 247/255 114+4 or so. But it's all in the ballpark. As I said, more exhaust duration carries the power higher and past peak. But it does flatten out the midrange gains. Tooley also sells an EPS 244/256 114 Cam... it makes big power too. And the valve events are closer to what I would want to see.

Other mods? ATI Balancer, EWP, 3" True Duals, 2" Headers, .036" quench, 12:1 CR (on 93... 12.5:1+ on E60/E85), short travel lifters, 3/8" pushrods etc. etc.

What I hate about NA Power is the cost to add 20HP. If you're trying to spray a lot, who even cares about NA power. Optimize it for the spray. You'll be running a tune with limited timing and cold plugs. It won't make huge power NA. But, if you don't plan to run it at the track and spray all the time, maybe don't worry about the spray as much.

What you'll find is that trying to get a lot of power out of an NA setup is frustrating. A 5.3L JY motor with a PT7675 would walk it for much much less money. And it would drive like stock. But there's other issues with turbo setups on these cars. Namely heat management. And retaining A/C and things like that.
Thanks for taking the time to write that. I appreciate the explanation.

I'll be spraying 250 ish, but here's the thing, I won't be spraying but maybe 25% of the time.

So you would recommend the EPS Cam over the one I listed?

What do you think it would run N/A, at a 3650 lb raceweight and something like 1,500 DA?
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:25 PM
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The one you listed will drive better. It's tamer.

I think something like 10.5-7s in the mid-to-high 120s NA (6sp or auto? auto might get to 10.3-4s). Get the DA to 0 or even negative with a nice cold day at sea level and you could maybe touch the 130s and bottom 10.3-10.4. Or get some weight out of the car.

I do more 1/8 mile stuff. If you could hit 6.70s in the 1/8 mile and 100+ mph, you would be doing great with that setup. 250 shot on top should get you to the bottom 6s and 112-114 in the 1/8. Which is something like a [email protected] in the 1/4. Anytime you can run 5.99 or better in a street car, you're flying.

Last edited by JakeFusion; 01-11-2019 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by 98RedBird View Post
Define heavy amounts of nitrous. I'm going to be in the 250 range.
I plan on spraying 400ish. I have been doing 250 on my ls6 with the 220's and it has gotten me down to a 6.12 in 2000+ DA. I will probably keep these heads and try them as is. If they dont perform how I want, all I'm out is a few hours and head gaskets
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Old 01-12-2019, 06:46 PM
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So, I guess if I understand all of the comments in this thread, the Tooley 220's should be just as strong as the 235's in the mid range and may give up 20 or so way up top?

If that's the case, I'll probably just hang on to these heads as suggested. 20 isn't really worth the added cost to me (also as mentioned by others in this thread.

Ultimately, I started this thread just wanting to understand the power differences between those two heads on my build.
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Old 01-12-2019, 07:51 PM
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Please report back!
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Old 01-12-2019, 08:02 PM
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Just curious on what made you choose the tooley tfs 220s over the Mamo mms220s ?
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Old 01-22-2019, 02:02 PM
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To update this, I got an email back from AI, they do have a 235 program for the TFS 220's. And according to what they told me, they will wind up flowing a bit better than the 235's from the factory.

Price is $1195.

Wonder what kind of power that'll be worth on a 408? Still in the 15 hp range? Awfully hard to sell myself on that one if that's the case.

Between 20-25 I'd prob consider it.
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Old 01-22-2019, 03:50 PM
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See what the CFM gain is. best case scenario, you gain 2.2 hp per cfm at the intake port. realistically, you won't get that much. But if it's say a 25 cfm improvement, and you get HALF the 2.2, you're likely getting what you want. if it only gains 10 cfm, then unlikely it makes that big a difference if any at all.
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Old 01-22-2019, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by 98RedBird View Post
To update this, I got an email back from AI, they do have a 235 program for the TFS 220's. And according to what they told me, they will wind up flowing a bit better than the 235's from the factory.

Price is $1195.

Wonder what kind of power that'll be worth on a 408? Still in the 15 hp range? Awfully hard to sell myself on that one if that's the case.

Between 20-25 I'd prob consider it.
Did you choose to ignore the above. It was propounded to you by skilled forum members that getting an extra 20 Hps from an NA motor is expensive. The heads you have are good for spray. Other mods such as crank scrapers and soforth will provide easier and less expensive HP. But yet, you want to spend over an additional $1000 for a port program for a fast as cast head.

You aren't getting it. Think with your mind and not the heart.
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Old 01-22-2019, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by rednari2 View Post
Did you choose to ignore the above. It was propounded to you by skilled forum members that getting an extra 20 Hps from an NA motor is expensive. The heads you have are good for spray. Other mods such as crank scrapers and soforth will provide easier and less expensive HP. But yet, you want to spend over an additional $1000 for a port program for a fast as cast head.

You aren't getting it. Think with your mind and not the heart.
Nope. I heard them loud and clear. Understand perfectly.

Was posting more or less to put the information out there that there are port programs out there for the 220's, and give additional prices and commentary from the porters in addition to what's been listed.

I agree perfectly that the cost for N/A hp isn't great return on investment as has been mentioned several times in this thread.

Thanks

Darth, yeah, I asked them about that. We'll see what he says. The thing about AI is that when you send them an email, it takes about 3 weeks to get a response in my experience lol
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Old 01-22-2019, 09:22 PM
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Crank scraper is about 7HP maybe more on a big motor with windage issues at higher RPM. ATI Crank Pulley is worth a good bit too. But, you're now in the $200 here, $450 there for 7-12HP.

I think the best head for a 4.03" bore is probably the TFS 245s. After that, I dunno. It's likely the MAST 265 Medium Bore LS7 heads. But what I like about the LS7 architecture is the MSD AirForce or even the FAST LS7... they are big time performers. It uses the LS3 rockers though, so no added lift. But the other issue is the price. A 402-416 motor with a 245/259 114+3 cam and the MAST 265 heads, a ported MSD Intake, and at least 1-7/8" or 2" heads running on E85 with 13:1 CR would be a 600+rwhp motor. The cost just goes up a lot to eek out a few more ponies.

Last edited by JakeFusion; 01-22-2019 at 09:45 PM.
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Old 01-22-2019, 09:54 PM
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Anybody know by the way what Tooleys TFS 220s flow? I'm having a difficult time finding that information. I've seen a few ppl claim that they've gotten 320 ish @ .600

TEA claims 343 @ .600 for the 235's.

At 1.1 that's in the 25 hp range.
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Old 01-23-2019, 07:39 AM
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I see on their web site AI offers a 230 program. I havent heard of the 235 before. Did they say what size valves they put in those heads?
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Old 01-23-2019, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by 98RedBird View Post
Anybody know by the way what Tooleys TFS 220s flow? I'm having a difficult time finding that information. I've seen a few ppl claim that they've gotten 320 ish @ .600

TEA claims 343 @ .600 for the 235's.

At 1.1 that's in the 25 hp range.
320ish is about right. But that's on a 3.9" bore.. probably a few points higher on a 4" bore. The 235 is on a 4.125" bore. Put it on a 4" bore and it comes down a bit. So the difference is likely only 5-10HP. The test by Hot Rod way back in 2010 showed almost no difference between any of the heads. You get more variance from the intake manifold than you do the head... And that was on a 408 with a 239/247 cam... so while not the most aggressive thing ever, it was not mild either. Everything came in around 620HP (which is weak for a 408 with something like AFR 245s or TFS 235s). So it was not a highly optimized setup. And I still don't know what intake manifold was used. I assume a FAST 102? But that just goes to show you, going for super high dollar heads doesn't mean much. One of the reasons I've contemplated re-using my TEA LS6 heads on the 408. I don't know if there's 10HP to be had for spending $2500+ on new heads.

Another example of how insane this all is, Hot Rod did a test between the MAST 240 cathedrals and 255 LS3 heads and there was no difference between them either and each was running the FAST 102 variant for the heads. The LS3 had like 30cfm more airflow and didn't make any more power. But it was using a much larger valve. That's where the coefficient of discharge stuff really came from that Tooley used to talk about when he made his case for the TFS 245s vs the LS3 stuff. But, I don't know what to make of Holdener's tests as everything is so homogenized with him. And for both heads he used a 239/247 and 239/255 cam and the spread was I think 10HP. I don't recall if it was the same motor from the 2010 test... but if so, those MAST heads were up 20HP over everything else with the same cam (239/247).

Of course, stock LS3 heads are within 20HP of aftermarket LS3 heads on almost every test run, including those by Holdener and his homogenized tests. And for $1300 assembled new with something like BTR Springs... they are very hard to ignore on a 408+ motor given the value they provide.

Given all that, one interesting head I've been looking at is the MAST 240 LS3 heads for a 3.9" bore (not the ones tested by hot rod--these flow like the 255s but use a smaller CSA rect port and valve of the cathedrals and LS3 architecture)... they flow 360cfm with a 2.08" valve, 240cc runner tested on a 3.9" bore (342 @ .600). Most heads flow about what they flow with more valve and/or more runner, and on a larger bore. So, if they are a more efficient head flowing that, they will make more power with a smaller cam (less overlap). I think they'd work well on a 4.03" bore as well bringing up the mid-lift flow numbers a good bit... but at that point, you can move to the MAST 265 Small Bore LS7s and that will smoke just about everything given that it flows more than a stock LS7 head (even on a 4" bore) and you can cam it just like a regular LS7. And there are cam-only LS7s out there pushing 580-600rwhp with an MSD or FAST intake. So, a .660" lift 244/258 114 Cam with MAST 265s would run hard.
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Old 01-23-2019, 08:54 AM
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Jake, those are interesting results. Do you think the difference between the bigger and better flowing heads and the smaller 220s would really show with a better flowing single plane intake and a good bit of nitrous? Assuming an appropriate cam was ground for each set up?
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Old 01-23-2019, 09:53 AM
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Found some flow numbers for the 'touched up' 220's from a few old posts. Does not say what the bore is, probably 3.9, so as pointed out earlier, on a 4.03 bore, these figures might be up a bit. Probably 325 is a fair figure for tooley 220's on a 4.0 motor.




Lift int exh
0.1 71.7 59.5
0.2 137.5 110.9
0.3 214.7 167.3
0.4 269.6 212.1
0.5 303.5 239.6
0.55 314.2 247.5
0.6 321.7 252.4
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Old 01-23-2019, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Jtm2085 View Post
Jake, those are interesting results. Do you think the difference between the bigger and better flowing heads and the smaller 220s would really show with a better flowing single plane intake and a good bit of nitrous? Assuming an appropriate cam was ground for each set up?
Probably. Even in one of Holdener's tests (really the only place this **** exists it seems), the Super Victor and MAST 4500 intakes added about 25HP over an LS3 intake (yeah we are talking cathedral, but the LS3 manifold is likely the best one GM has ever done). That's a pretty mild cam LS3 setup. Add more cubes and the right cam (a lot more overlap with those intakes), and that 25HP would likely grow... like I said, the intakes probably have more to do with the numbers than the heads once you get to a certain point (assuming the heads don't have murdered ports or crap valve jobs).
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Old 01-25-2019, 02:04 PM
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Just to update this thread, found a buyer for my 220's at a fair price, so I sold them.

Bought a set of TFS 245's, with some blend work, and milled to 64cc from BTR.
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Old 01-26-2019, 12:16 PM
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I wonder if the Mast 240 squares are too much head for a 3.9 inch 346? The engine so only suck so much air until the cylinder is full.
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Old 01-26-2019, 08:05 PM
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I think you made a good choice RedBird. Keep us posted
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