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Old 01-24-2019, 04:55 AM
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A couple questions... Were both cams tuned by the same person? Was the cam degreed when it was installed? Can we see the 2 dyno sheets from the cams? Also was that Cam motion cam spec'd for you or is it an off the shelf?
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Old 01-24-2019, 06:46 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by stockA4 View Post
I think the best thing we can all gleam from your experience is that a few degrees of overlap is often more significant than a few degrees of duration for overall output. I'm just trying to build a tourqe pig 11:1cr 372 with some mildly ported 853's, max tourqe from idle to ls6 intake, max under the curve. I think I may need less duration and more overlap than I thought previously to reach my goal. Like you though, I unfortunately don't think longtubes would be realiable for my cars intended use though I know I'll be leaving power on the table. I'll probably just try the 212/218-115+0 I've got in my 4.8 "place holder engine" first while I try to think up something better.

​​​​​​Best of luck with your ride. I think the 214/218-112 that Darth suggested would work better than what you have now but with slightly less overlap than the 216/220-112 you had before maybe not quite as good. I think in your case it would be very helpful to know exactly how much static compression you are working with so you could really push the IVC to maximize your dynamic compression with whatever fuel your guys using down under. I think could probably go as high as 220-222 on the intake if you close it early enough and know a good enough tuner.

there's a cam out there somewhere that will perform better than either of the ones you have tried already. If it's too rowdy sounding you can always add an extra muffler or resonators to your exhaust. I think a two inlet single outlet muffler like a magnaflow at the end of your dual exhaust (it comes out on one side right?) would blend the note a bit and help to hide a healthy amount of overlap pretty well without hurting output any further. Just an idea.
Thanks for the great reply StockA4 and for your kind wishes.

Best of luck with your build, it sounds good. Would be interesting to see how the 212//218 115 goes in your combo.

I do think there probably is some things to be learnt from my experience, even if there are some variables between combos that may see different results.

To me there is a reason these smaller cams exist but they certainly suit some cars (and owners) more than others. On duration, I do wonder if a short split is also beneficial as most of these cams seem to have 4 to 6 degrees split rather than the wider split of the other cams. Your exhaust tips may come in handy too, cheers for that!
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Old 01-24-2019, 07:03 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by BCNUL8R View Post
A couple questions... Were both cams tuned by the same person? Was the cam degreed when it was installed? Can we see the 2 dyno sheets from the cams? Also was that Cam motion cam spec'd for you or is it an off the shelf?
The car with the 216/220 was set up by one shop a number of years ago now, then the 218/226 was installed and the car retuned by a second shop (installed dot to dot).

Both are high end shops and LS1 pioneers in Australia and dyno test their cars etc (although unfortunately I don't have the original shops dyno sheet on hand and only got the "after" Dyno sheet from the second shop). I only changed shops because the first shop was too busy to work on the car but I had full confidence the second shop could deliver when I sent the car there initially as I has used them before for work. I was looking at going back to the first shop to add in the same spec cam and touch up the original tune but I'm now changing to a third shop but that has nothing to do with the power output of the 218/226 cam.

The 218/226 is an off the shelf CamMotion cam (called the Torque Titan) which I contacted them about, they recommended for my needs and I purchased direct and imported to Australia but they no longer show it on their website.
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Old 01-24-2019, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Pulse Red View Post
The car with the 216/220 was set up by one shop a number of years ago now, then the 218/226 was installed and the car retuned by a second shop (installed dot to dot).

Both are high end shops and LS1 pioneers in Australia and dyno test their cars etc (although unfortunately I don't have the original shops dyno sheet on hand and only got the "after" Dyno sheet from the second shop). I only changed shops because the first shop was too busy to work on the car but I had full confidence the second shop could deliver when I sent the car there initially as I has used them before for work. I was looking at going back to the first shop to add in the same spec cam and touch up the original tune but I'm now changing to a third shop but that has nothing to do with the power output of the 218/226 cam.

The 218/226 is an off the shelf CamMotion cam (called the Torque Titan) which I contacted them about, they recommended for my needs and I purchased direct and imported to Australia but they no longer show it on their website.
There are a few variables there, but itís interesting that a well respected cam company recommended you a cam for your setup/goals, but you lost power everywhere.
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Old 01-24-2019, 07:33 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by BCNUL8R View Post


There are a few variables there, but itís interesting that a well respected cam company recommended you a cam for your setup/goals, but you lost power everywhere.
I haven't ruled out tuning differences between shops but the second shop is a very experienced tuner and has actually been in the tuning game even longer than the original shop. I also had the current tune scanned by the new shop im using and he said from a power perspective it looked fine.

I don't think this is about CamMotion, these guys delivered a very smooth and quiet cam with factory like manors compared to the Comp 216/220. I know they expected the power result to be similar but as I said to other posters and you said yourself, there's variables here. CamMotion, knowing I wasn't completely happy with the result, even offered to replace my fully working cam if I wanted and I just pay shipping. That's excellent customer service!
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Old 01-24-2019, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by StockA4
I think the best thing we can all gleam from your experience is that a few degrees of overlap is often more significant than a few degrees of duration for overall output.
This is very possible, and has me rethinking the recommendation I made earlier. i still think it would benefit from higher lift though.

Originally Posted by Pulse Red View Post
I haven't ruled out tuning differences between shops but the second shop is a very experienced tuner and has actually been in the tuning game even longer than the original shop. I also had the current tune scanned by the new shop im using and he said from a power perspective it looked fine.

I don't think this is about CamMotion, these guys delivered a very smooth and quiet cam with factory like manors compared to the Comp 216/220. I know they expected the power result to be similar but as I said to other posters and you said yourself, there's variables here. CamMotion, knowing I wasn't completely happy with the result, even offered to replace my fully working cam if I wanted and I just pay shipping. That's excellent customer service!
I was going to ask if you had talked to cam motion. Kip and Steven both are great guys and I'm not surprised they'll work with you. And Really there is no doubt it was cut correctly, as you should have received a cam doctor report from them.

Back to your other post, I had actually started typing to swap on a set of milled 243 heads, but I reread your post and saw that the heads you have were worked over, so I revised before posting. You may be dealing with a situation where the combination of parts was a combination that worked together well, and deviating caused issues. I'm still rather surprised by the result, but it is what it is at this point. We're all right now trying to take something that actually happened and try to make it happen in theory.

Your instinct on this is probably right. You can easily get to a place where you spend $6K to get a ~$400 part to work right. Better to swap out the part. Rethinking this and going more with my own tolerance for PITA on a street cam, you may like something along the lines of 222/226-113+4 with .625/.608 lift. That gives you back your 40 degree IVC, which will help with the low end grunt. -2 overlap to help it build some cylinder pressure, but not too much. I ran a 224/230 a while back, and I could drive in third at 15 mph on it. it will not have a choppy idle, but it will have a performance "note" to it. It will hit peak power earlier than 6300 rpm, and likely will not carry past 7000 the way most performance cams do, but it should peak around 6000 and continue pulling to 6500 pretty decent.

Something else I thought I'd share to somewhat counter the articles posted about intakes, etc. This is completely non-scientific, but also non-biased and a blind test. When I swapped out my fast102 for a MSD on my old 346, I kept staring at my wife's bone stock LS2 vette and thinking how happy it would be with the fast102 on it. So, when she was gone for a weekend, I swapped it on. Never said a word about it. She comes home, drives it to work, comes home, "OK, what did you do to my car?" "What do you mean?" "It's faster.. a good bit faster. I had to ease up at stop lights"

Like I said, no data, very anecdotal, but for someone to not know it was done, and arguably not a hotrodder (although she can DRIVE), and she noticed it with no knowledge
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Old 01-24-2019, 08:59 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Pulse Red View Post
I haven't ruled out tuning differences between shops but the second shop is a very experienced tuner and has actually been in the tuning game even longer than the original shop. I also had the current tune scanned by the new shop im using and he said from a power perspective it looked fine.

I don't think this is about CamMotion, these guys delivered a very smooth and quiet cam with factory like manors compared to the Comp 216/220. I know they expected the power result to be similar but as I said to other posters and you said yourself, there's variables here. CamMotion, knowing I wasn't completely happy with the result, even offered to replace my fully working cam if I wanted and I just pay shipping. That's excellent customer service!
I agree, I have a hard time believing they would recommend a cam that would be that far off your goals and lose power everywhere. As for tuning Iím not an experienced tuner, but Iíve fixed a lot of issues for people that were tuned by experienced tuners. Usually itís driveability stuff not wot though.
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Old 01-24-2019, 09:46 AM
  #48  
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I've been thinking more about this overlap and duration fiasco. I think the amount of "time" (duration) was spot on with his first cam and the original shop did a great job.

for the kind of low end he wants at his weight and mods with a 3.91 geared m6, I think he should try another 216/220 on a 111-108 lsa with as much lift as he can afford, just make that one change and see if it can be a little better. Guys seem to forget that mufflers are easier to change than cams. It will work better and we will all be a little smarter together.

We all know LSA doesn't matter but that is what I think he needs to do haha
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Old 01-24-2019, 10:10 AM
  #49  
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Imo you should consider the Cam motion Titan 1 218/222 112+3 or Titan 2 221/226 112+2. I agree with StockA4 That 216/220 116 is making the engine lazy down low with the wider LSA.
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Old 01-24-2019, 12:29 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by cula8r View Post
Keep in mind that the LS/480 crate engine from GM has a cam with .525 lift on both the intake/exhaust, even the 525 crate motor, only more duration.
Coming from the SBC platform I'm finding that LS heads flow a ton compared to the original small block stuff. In my post I erred in the last flow specs....should be .600-.650".
I'm building a 6.0L iron LS3 & the cam I've selected is Comp's .566/ .568, .222/.224- 112, probably tame to some but I'm good with it.
Cheers mate!
This shelf cam was originaly ground for a cathedral head way before the ls3 came out. I would try it with my setup as well
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Old 01-24-2019, 01:01 PM
  #51  
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Caveat: I haven't read through the thread. I meant to respond to this the other day and forgot. Also, I'm going to make some assumptions about the motor like it's still basically a 10:1 CR LS1 with the mods listed in the OP.

But with that said, the reason you lost responsiveness and top end power is you lowered your cranking/dynamic compression substantially with the new cam and lost overlap. The new cam is also opening the exhaust valve too early not allowing it to build torque like you want.

However, you gained additional smoothness... had you also bumped compression a half point or so, it would have brought back some of the responsiveness. But either cam should drive pretty close to stock.

So, if you wanted to do something new that actually works for you, I would do the following (and power would probably be closer to your old cam and more explosive):

Set IVC at 38 and EVO at 40. It will die off at 6000 pretty hard, but it will make some big time torque off idle to 6000. And I'd keep overlap close to where you are now.

I'd do a reverse split, 218/214 .603/.586 111+2 LSA cam. I'd have TSP grind it on their TSP355 intake lobe and TSP345 exhaust lobe. Overlap is -6, IVC is 38, EVO at 40.



Originally Posted by Pulse Red View Post
I'm getting a different tune and intake from a new shop so now looking at a new cam to replace my Cam Motion Torque Titan 218/226 .595”/.587” 116+3 while I'm at it. This is a good cam, you could not get that much closer to factory while still making good power IMO. It delivered on my initial desire for a very smooth and quiet cam with no lope but I have found that replacing my previous 216/220 .600/.600 112 cam with this bigger cam I lost too much low down and responsiveness which would not be as noticeable in an F body but is important on the street in a manual car of the weight of my 2004 Monaro (2004 Pontiac GTO equivalent). Surprisingly I also lost top end power, dropping from just under 400 rwhp to under 380 rwhp (lower reading than US dynos though) but its the responsiveness I miss.

Originally I was just going to go back to a 216/220 like my old cam but since I'm starting again with a new shop anyway I thought I would look at options. I know you guys in the US don't believe in baby cams for a 5.7 but you guys know your LS obviously so does anyone want to recommend a replacement? Its only a street car, not raced at the track any more and doesn't do much freeway running. I understand that I will probably not be able to get as good manors as the current cam I will need to shorten the LSA/ decrease overlap which is ok within reason but I want to achieve the following:


- Excellent low to mid range to support my heavy car
- Responsive and not laggy (sharp under 3000 rpm)
- Smooth and not too much lope
- Hopefully regain some of my lost power

I'm guessing I will also need to replace the valve springs with duals to support .600 lift and over and the pushrods I fitted with this cam.


The current combo is as follows:

Higgins CNC Ported 241 heads
Pac 1218 single valve springs
LS7 Lifters
Manley Pushrods
Stock rockers with brass trunnion upgrade
Rollmaster Double Row timing chain
25% underdrive pulley
Ported stock TB with stock LS6 manifold
OTRCAI with 85mm MAF
1-5/8 short headers with 100 cpi cats
Twin 2.5" Stainless exhaust
3.91 Diff Gears with TrueTrac



Thanks in advance!
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Old 01-24-2019, 01:33 PM
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Is the idea of a reverse split to reduce exhaust velocity and thus scavenging at lower rpms? he doesn't have long tubes so it's probably not going to be any better, although I have never seen a back to back comparison to be sure.

Last edited by stockA4; 01-24-2019 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 01-24-2019, 01:45 PM
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It's to build cylinder pressure. A lot of it.

Typically, you choose your IVC first... 43-45 gives you a 6300rpm peak HP. Anything less than that helps build power earlier.

Then you select the EVO... 10 degrees larger than the IVC gives you a pretty balanced powerband so 45-55 for example. Going to something like 6-7 degrees really gives you a lot of peak torque at the expense of power after peak HP... like 43 IVC and 50 EVO. Going to something like 2 degrees gives you blistering torque production down low when coupled with an early IVC.

You then use IVO and EVC to define overall overlap... of course positive overlap makes more power. You use the expelled exhaust charge as a vacuum of sorts to grab the incoming intake charge and pull it into the cylinder. But it comes at a price for drivability at lower engine speed. By keeping overlap down and the valves closed longer, you decrease the efficiency of the motor for high RPM operation... but you create a lot of cylinder pressure and torque. Better headers would help a cam like that a lot. But aren't necessary for his goals.

Last edited by JakeFusion; 01-24-2019 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 01-24-2019, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by stockA4 View Post
Is the idea of a reverse split to reduce exhaust velocity and thus scavenging at lower rpms? he doesn't have long tubes so it's probably not going to be any better, although I have never seen a back to back comparison to be sure.
The idea of reverse split is to open the exhaust valve later to extract as much work as possible on the power stroke before opening the exhaust and venting down. Does great for midrange 2500-5500, but tends to fall off up top, or rather not carry as well past peak. It does give a good performance option for lower compression engines due to the later EVO. Reverse split also helps maximize intake duration while minimizing overlap, if it is configured with an earlier EVO and earlier EVC
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Old 01-24-2019, 07:00 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Darth_V8r View Post
This is very possible, and has me rethinking the recommendation I made earlier. i still think it would benefit from higher lift though.



I was going to ask if you had talked to cam motion. Kip and Steven both are great guys and I'm not surprised they'll work with you. And Really there is no doubt it was cut correctly, as you should have received a cam doctor report from them.

Back to your other post, I had actually started typing to swap on a set of milled 243 heads, but I reread your post and saw that the heads you have were worked over, so I revised before posting. You may be dealing with a situation where the combination of parts was a combination that worked together well, and deviating caused issues. I'm still rather surprised by the result, but it is what it is at this point. We're all right now trying to take something that actually happened and try to make it happen in theory.

Your instinct on this is probably right. You can easily get to a place where you spend $6K to get a ~$400 part to work right. Better to swap out the part. Rethinking this and going more with my own tolerance for PITA on a street cam, you may like something along the lines of 222/226-113+4 with .625/.608 lift. That gives you back your 40 degree IVC, which will help with the low end grunt. -2 overlap to help it build some cylinder pressure, but not too much. I ran a 224/230 a while back, and I could drive in third at 15 mph on it. it will not have a choppy idle, but it will have a performance "note" to it. It will hit peak power earlier than 6300 rpm, and likely will not carry past 7000 the way most performance cams do, but it should peak around 6000 and continue pulling to 6500 pretty decent.

Something else I thought I'd share to somewhat counter the articles posted about intakes, etc. This is completely non-scientific, but also non-biased and a blind test. When I swapped out my fast102 for a MSD on my old 346, I kept staring at my wife's bone stock LS2 vette and thinking how happy it would be with the fast102 on it. So, when she was gone for a weekend, I swapped it on. Never said a word about it. She comes home, drives it to work, comes home, "OK, what did you do to my car?" "What do you mean?" "It's faster.. a good bit faster. I had to ease up at stop lights"

Like I said, no data, very anecdotal, but for someone to not know it was done, and arguably not a hotrodder (although she can DRIVE), and she noticed it with no knowledge
I haven't spoken to a Kip or Steven, Ive dealt with a fella named Bob. Yes, I have the Cam Dr report for this cam whereas I have nothing for the 216/220 shop cam unfortunately. So I was always going in a little bit blind. I do think you're right though, it just seems that the original combo chosen went together really well and my change didn't work as well. Thanks for the cam suggestion too, I'm noting down everyone's suggestions and running them through the calculators to make note of how they compare.

Your manifold comments did twig my memory, that improvement doesn't surprise me as the LS2 is the exception to what I said before about the manifolds. They are probably the biggest recipient of Fast Manifolds here because apparently the stock LS2 manifold is no good. However we didn't get a lot of LS2 powered cars in Australia, that engine was only in the HSV limited edition cars. This is why people tend to work the 241 heads down here a lot too, the 243 only appearing on the LS2 here means they are quite rare. There are now companies importing second hand 243 from the USA to on sell, also the 4.8 and 5.3 LS1s which we didn't get either but are popular for Turbo conversions, especially into lighter cars which can have engine capacity restrictions.


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Old 01-24-2019, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by kinglt-1 View Post
Imo you should consider the Cam motion Titan 1 218/222 112+3 or Titan 2 221/226 112+2. I agree with StockA4 That 216/220 116 is making the engine lazy down low with the wider LSA.
Thanks. I have thought about these two cams to replace the Torque Titan 218/226 116+4, they are on my list.
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Old 01-24-2019, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by JakeFusion View Post
Caveat: I haven't read through the thread. I meant to respond to this the other day and forgot. Also, I'm going to make some assumptions about the motor like it's still basically a 10:1 CR LS1 with the mods listed in the OP.

But with that said, the reason you lost responsiveness and top end power is you lowered your cranking/dynamic compression substantially with the new cam and lost overlap. The new cam is also opening the exhaust valve too early not allowing it to build torque like you want.

However, you gained additional smoothness... had you also bumped compression a half point or so, it would have brought back some of the responsiveness. But either cam should drive pretty close to stock.

So, if you wanted to do something new that actually works for you, I would do the following (and power would probably be closer to your old cam and more explosive):

Set IVC at 38 and EVO at 40. It will die off at 6000 pretty hard, but it will make some big time torque off idle to 6000. And I'd keep overlap close to where you are now.

I'd do a reverse split, 218/214 .603/.586 111+2 LSA cam. I'd have TSP grind it on their TSP355 intake lobe and TSP345 exhaust lobe. Overlap is -6, IVC is 38, EVO at 40.

Thank you kindly for this post, you have given me so much to think about! What you say makes complete sense and matches what I am experiencing.

I should point out that while my original 216/220 cam and ported 241 heads were a shop package and I don't know 100% of their specs unfortunately, just what I have provided in this thread. I do know that the CNC Heads run more compression. Most Higgins street 241 heads seem to be between 10.7.1 and 11.1 from what I read but I don't know what the shop originally specified for my car. They did say that if I wanted to go Turbo (they do heaps of these), the additional compression of these 241s would mean they need to be replaced.

The 218/226 cam certainly feels close to stock, if it didn't lose my much loved down low performance it would have been perfect. Very smooth. The 216/220 always felt like more of a hottie, I could pick it as being cammed easily but others couldn't. I also wonder how much of that came down to tuning. I always though it was the cam spec that made it a bit rubbish at low rpm but I now realise it was the tune. It was very well tuned for power but the low end manors needed more work.

The Current cam has the following based on the cam sheet:

Overlap = 9.8

IVO = -2.8

CL = 113

IVC = 41

EVO = 53

CL = 119

EVO = -7

So your recommendation makes a lot of sense even though I have no experience with reverse split cams at all. Ive never even seen one. However I'm unsure if the extra compression of my combo changes that?
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Old 01-24-2019, 07:56 PM
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Well, it might. There's a bit of forgiveness if it were 10:1... but if it's 11:1, I'd do something a little different. I think it's probably save to assume 11:1 and then work from there.

Given that, I'm surprised the Cam Motion cam felt so crappy. The added compression should have tightened it up.

But still, a reverse split will create a lot more torque lower in the band.

Try a 222/216 .603/.586 112+3... it should work with 11:1... and brings overlap up only slightly. But IVC is later at 40 degrees and the EVO is opening a little earlier at 43. There's a limit to how much you can build cylinder pressure when your static compression is higher. This is right on that edge. But the compression does help you make power and makes the car more responsive...
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Old 01-24-2019, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by JakeFusion View Post
Well, it might. There's a bit of forgiveness if it were 10:1... but if it's 11:1, I'd do something a little different. I think it's probably save to assume 11:1 and then work from there.

Given that, I'm surprised the Cam Motion cam felt so crappy. The added compression should have tightened it up.

But still, a reverse split will create a lot more torque lower in the band.

Try a 222/216 .603/.586 112+3... it should work with 11:1... and brings overlap up only slightly. But IVC is later at 40 degrees and the EVO is opening a little earlier at 43. There's a limit to how much you can build cylinder pressure when your static compression is higher. This is right on that edge. But the compression does help you make power and makes the car more responsive...
Thanks JakeFusion, excellent information again. Your recommendation is very close to the 216/220:

216/220 .600/.600 112+0

Overlap = -6

IVC = 40

EVO = 42

vs


222/216 .603/.586 112+3

Overlap = -5

IVC = 40

EVO = 43


I'm going to see if I can contact the shop that did the work originally to see if they recorded the CR, although they are always very busy doing big builds so very hard to contact. It would be so much easier with that info I think.

May I also ask if there is a reason you recommended the TSP355 intake lobe and TSP345 exhaust lobe? I was looking at Cam Motion again but sounds like there is a better option?
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Old 01-24-2019, 09:36 PM
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Cam Motion is fine. Just TSP is doing good work too. Talk to Lonnie there. He's TSP Human 3 on here for some reason.
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