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-   -   F'ing needle bearings! (https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1941355-fing-needle-bearings.html)

FCar2000TA Sep 11, 2020 03:38 PM

F'ing needle bearings!
 
Welp... add me to the list of victims of "The Great LS1 Rocker Needle Bearing Migration". Oil change today revealed needle bearings on the magnet and in the drain pan. Luckily, I had not heard anything that made me think there was something wrong with the motor, so I think I dodged a bullet!

Ordered the RPM Speed Max Effort rockers from WS6 Store. Add that to the new tires and front end alignment, and this has been an expensive week!

Bob570 Sep 11, 2020 03:45 PM

Glad you caught it before it damaged anything.

G Atsma Sep 11, 2020 04:33 PM

You dodged a mortar shell!

TTur1996 Sep 12, 2020 10:50 AM

You learned the hard way to always use bushed. Not ever worth the chance regardless of what some might say. Way too many failures.

G Atsma Sep 12, 2020 11:41 AM


Originally Posted by TTur1996 (Post 20287287)
You learned the hard way to always use bushed. Not ever worth the chance regardless of what some might say. Way too many failures.

From hanging around here, one COULD draw that conclusion. HOWEVER, remember the millions of LS engines in use with stock rockers with no issues.
Statistically, the stock rockers with the uncaged needle bearings are a non-issue.

showdog75 Sep 12, 2020 11:50 AM

Are you gonna chance it and simply put new bushed rockers in it or tear it down to make sure you removed all foreign material? Sucks to be you right now but I'd pull it apart to make certain. You could possibly figure out how many needles are in each rocker and do some math.

FCar2000TA Sep 12, 2020 11:51 AM


Originally Posted by TTur1996 (Post 20287287)
You learned the hard way to always use bushed. Not ever worth the chance regardless of what some might say. Way too many failures.

my new ones will still use bearings, but they are locked in, and will not come out.

FCar2000TA Sep 12, 2020 07:13 PM


Originally Posted by showdog75 (Post 20287298)
Are you gonna chance it and simply put new bushed rockers in it or tear it down to make sure you removed all foreign material? Sucks to be you right now but I'd pull it apart to make certain. You could possibly figure out how many needles are in each rocker and do some math.

Since I had not heard, or felt, anything that made me think there was anything wrong, I am going to just inspect the top, and install new rockers.

If I have to tear the motor down, it will be to ditch the LS1 block and heads anyway.

FCar2000TA Sep 12, 2020 08:18 PM

Can I rotate the motor with the serpentine belt still on?

TTur1996 Sep 13, 2020 05:15 AM


Originally Posted by G Atsma (Post 20287297)
From hanging around here, one COULD draw that conclusion. HOWEVER, remember the millions of LS engines in use with stock rockers with no issues.
Statistically, the stock rockers with the uncaged needle bearings are a non-issue.

As soon as someone says statistics implys that there are failures not just here. Have seen it several times with my own eyes. That is all I need to make my opinion. Have never seen a bushed lifter come apart and they have been around forever. If you actually go to the track on a regular basis you will seen them too. I'm sure the OP didn't make it up. When you spend the crazy money we do to build a high end motor, why would you even take a chance on it when it has absolutely no benefits.

TTur1996 Sep 13, 2020 05:28 AM

I have seen many lifters break in half at the trunion on crazy ass boosted motors. What do you think happens to the needle bearings? Bushed lifters just need to be swapped out. Unless there is a way to account for every needle like that has been already stated. There is no way I would run that motor without tearing it apart. Who knows though, you may get lucky.

G Atsma Sep 13, 2020 11:05 AM

I did not mean to say it does not happen. But you make it sound like a common disease with all stock rockers.
If you narrow it down to higher ("competition level") performance situations, THEN it is an issue.

Bspeck82 Sep 13, 2020 11:27 AM

Stock trunnions come apart with a hammer and chisel. The max effort rockers will not come apart unless you damage the rocker, like cut it open to remove the trunnion. If this happens in your engine, it wouldnt matter what you were using, engine is kaput. Needle bearings have less surface area that means less friction and less heat. Bushed materials are more for race applications where bushings are inspected and changed often.

FCar2000TA Sep 13, 2020 11:32 AM


Originally Posted by Bspeck82 (Post 20287528)
Stock trunnions come apart with a hammer and chisel. The max effort rockers will not come apart unless you damage the rocker, like cut it open to remove the trunnion. If this happens in your engine, it wouldnt matter what you were using, engine is kaput. Needle bearings have less surface area that means less friction and less heat. Bushed materials are more for race applications where bushings are inspected and changed often.

These are exactly the reasons that I bought the Max Effort rockers. They should be here Tuesday.

BCNUL8R Sep 13, 2020 07:17 PM

You will like the rockers. I've been running the max effort rockers in my new engine turning it 6950 rpm.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/ls1tech...cee93a7f58.png

FCar2000TA Sep 14, 2020 08:54 AM

I am going to try to get tomorrow and Wednesday off. I should be able to get the old rockers off tomorrow, and install the new ones Wednesday.

BCNUL8R Sep 14, 2020 02:47 PM


Originally Posted by FCar2000TA (Post 20287731)
I am going to try to get tomorrow and Wednesday off. I should be able to get the old rockers off tomorrow, and install the new ones Wednesday.

Get some pictures of the old rockers if you think about it while removing them.

84FSP Sep 15, 2020 07:19 AM

Had the same issue with the com cam trunion upgraded rockers and went back to OEM. Bought a bunch of neodyium magnets on extensions. I start my needle bearing hunt next week. Tentative plan is pull valve covers, intake/valley cover, and oil pan.

FCar2000TA Sep 15, 2020 01:01 PM

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/ls1tech...5df24e9f68.jpg
One side of one rocker came apart.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/ls1tech...8a8797eccb.jpg
It was still pretty centered.

FCar2000TA Sep 15, 2020 01:03 PM

Since only one side spilled, there should be 16 - 17 bearings, right? The shop showed me 5 and said that at least 10-12 fell on the floor.


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