fastmaro

I think I've pushed my setup as far as it can go and really looking to take it to another level. I'm looking only to do a cam and valvetrain upgrade because of the limited amount of money I have to spend. Heads will be my next step on the car. Anyway, I did some browsing around and from what has been said, a spring kit is a must when doing an aftermarket cam. A kit which includes, springs, retainers, valve stem seals, and spring seats. I also read that upgrading the oil pump, timing chain, and pushrods is good insurance. Well since Im not upgrading the heads, I'll just pick up some stock length chromoly hardened pushrods and a ported LS6 pump since that's what most of the sponsors offer. I also read that upgrading the rocker arms and lifters isnt really necessary, is this true? As far as the timing chain/set, valve spring kit, and cam goes, that's where I need your help.

First off, I want a cam that's going to net me the best results at the drag strip. (1/4 mile track) Drivability is not an issue because the car is hardly ever driven on the street. I'm running a 4400 stall torque converter and a 4.11 gear in the rear end. Everything but the motor is bullet proof. My transmission shift points are set at 6650. I dont wan't to spin the motor any higher than that. I want the block to last for a while until I get the funds to build it. My car weighs a little over 3300 lbs. with me in it.

Secondly, on the valve spring kit, I need a kit that's going to handle a pretty hot cam. From what I've read, the cams that are putting down the good numbers are in the .600" range if not more. So with that kind of lift eliminates the kits that are rated for .600" lift. So the next step would be a kit thats rated for .650" lift.

Lastly, the timing chain or set. Didn't really run into much info on this, so I'm pretty much clueless on this subject.

This is my first drag car. I've never taken any vehicle to this level. I have some knowledge in the modding world, but not too much. The experience I do have is just basic repairs and such. I would say I have pretty good mechanical skills and plan on doing the cam swap myself. I will also be using the cam install guide that I found on here, thanks to JMX. Really nice by the way.

So here's a summary on the new setup I plan to pursue for those who don't want to read my story, lol:

lifters: stock
rocker arms: stock
pushrods: chromoly hardened (stock length)
oil pump: LS6 ported
timing chain: need suggestions
spring kit: need suggestions
cam: need suggestions

So the next step I'm taking my car I pretty much have half covered and the other half I'd like everyone's help deciding. The parts I already know I'm getting I'll pick up where ever I decide to purchase the cam from that way its easier on me. I think I included enough information since I've wrote a book here, lol, but if there is anything else you need to know, please let me know. Thank you very much.

Glad I could be here. I've heard many good things about this site. I hope to learn a lot as well as share some of my knowledge. I hear there is a lot of great info on this site as well as many experienced members. I've pretty much taken the advice of dealers that I've purchased parts from as well as what's out there that works. I've based my decisions on what is putting down the numbers. I have spoken with lots of people about their setups and what's good out there. I've had pretty good luck on choosing the right parts so far, but I think deciding on a cam I'll need more help on. Hopefully I will have a better understanding with your help. Again, thanks.

By the way, sorry I made this so long.

jrp

iTrader: (16)

g5x3, MS3, Trex, FM14, ect are all cams you might want to research.
PP golds or PRC valve springs
JWIS single chain or Rollmaster Double


all of the above can be had from the various sponsors.

fastmaro

Thanks jrp for getting this started. Did some more research and here is what I've come up with.

G5X3 is a cam produced by LG Motorsports. They offer it in the 112 lobe seperation angle and a 114. The duration isnt listed, but the lift is advertised at .600"/.610". $449.00

MS3 is a short name for the Magic Stick version 3 produced by Texas Speed & Performance. Its advertised specs are 237"/242" .603"/.609" on a 113 lobe seperation angle. 2800-6700 rpm range. On special $369.99

T-Rex is a cam produced by Thunder Racing and its advertised specs are 242"/248" .608"/.612" on a 110 lobe seperation angle. 3500-6700 rpm range. On special $386.99.

Lastly, the F14 is a cam that is produced by Futural Motorsports and is a new item according to their site. Its advertised specs are 232"/234" .598/.598 and are offered in both the 112 and 114 lobe seperation angle. 3000-7000 rpm range. $399.00

All the cams that you listed are the biggest cams that these individual companies offer with the exception of Futural Motorsports. Their biggest cam is the RJ cam and its specs are 236"/239" .600"/.611" 111 lobe seperation angle. 3500-7200 rpm range. $399.00

With the tighter LSA, the rougher the idle correct? Doesnt a tighter LSA also affect the drivability/streetability? Is there an advantage to the tighter LSA? All these cams specs are pretty close. I am no expert at cam shafts and since my car's shift points are set at 6650, would I look for a cam's rpm range to end/peak sooner? All of these cams rpm ranges end at 6700 rpms and up.

On the spring kits, both of them are priced about the same and as far as characteristics, they're pretty much identical with the exception of the Patriot Golds having the Super 7 locks. I can't go wrong with either one for the price, but as far as quality, which one would be the better choice? Would I be making a mistake by choosing the Patriot Golds because they have the locks?

Lastly, on the timing chain/sets, of the 2 you listed, one is just a chain and the other is a complete set which consists of a double roller. Both are completely different as opposed to the spring kit which were almost identical. Will either the chain or the set handle any of the cams you listed above? If it were up to you, which one would you choose? I'm sure the double roller maybe be stronger for obvious reasons, but will the single chain be good enough? Do the sprockets wear? For instance, let's say I do go with just the chain, I'll be reusing the sprockets and only replacing the chain. Can there be any negative affect?

What ever products I decide on I know where to get them from. Again, I've already got the oil pump and pushrods out of the way and the rocker arms and lifters will remain stock. Now the hard part is deciding on the cam and the components that will compliment it. The spring kit is kind of a toss up while the timing chain/set and cam are a bit more harder to decide on. I want to do this once since I dont plan to change the cam again until funds are available for heads.

I've never had such a hard time deciding on parts until this point. I've had great luck with picking out parts so far, but I feel that a cam is really important and should take more thought and research than I've given the rest of my setup. Hopefully I will make the right decision on the cam.

Gotta wrap this up since I caught myself writing another novel here, lol, is there anything that could prove that one cam is better for my setup than another? Thank you jrp for your help and again, sorry I made this so long. Oh...sorry it took so long for me to respond, I was researching the information you gave me.

jrp

iTrader: (16)

damn, now thats what i like to see. someone who takes information and runs with it

when properly tuned all the above cams should be very driveable. also keep in mind these are all max hp cams where best e.t's are usually seen shifting at 7k. if your not comfortable with that you might want to look else where. maybe an fm13, tsp torque, ,g5x2, ect. also do a search for "BlackBeaSSt" (i believ thats the correct spelling, if not go to the drag forum and you'll find a bazillion of his posts). a while back he asked about max effort cams and there is alot of great info in those threads by racers who own those cams.

I personally dont see a big enough difference between the PP Golds and PRC's, they are spec for spec almost identical and there have been no PP Gold failure due to the product itself that im aware of. cant go wrong with either so pick by price or flip a coin.

im a fan of the double roller myself and thats what i've been running. there are plenty of guys running a single JWIS chain and its been proven stout over the years. i bought my adj double roller before the price went up, paid like 75 bucks back then so it was a no brainer for me. stock sprocket failure is nil to none.

proving what cam is better is determined by what criteria your using. since you seem quite versed in drag racing you know that hp isnt everything. so comparing a g5x3 cam only car in a 3k lbs race weight car will be different then a full weight car with a Trex. best advice i can give is to get an overall view of what type setup the guys are running and looking at the powerbands of these cams and deciding which one fits your needs.

my own cam is custom and is a 238/236 .586/.589 112+0

fastmaro

Even though I wasn't too concerned about drivability, its good to know that all of the cams can be tuned to be very drivable. From the research I've read and even you have pointed out that these cams like high rpms, I did some thinking and have come up with a questions. We'll use the T-ReX and the F14 for an example. Ok...we have 2 different cams with 2 different rpm bands. The T-ReX having 3500-6700 rpm band and the F14 3000-7000 rpm band. I pick these 2 for the example because one power band ends at 6700 and the other ends at 7000. Anyway, of course, the F14 requires more rpms to get max hp than the T-ReX because it's power band ends sooner. Well lets say we put each cam in 2 identical cars or even the same car and put it on the dyno. The rev limiter was set at 6900 rpms for example, so no matter if the cam that needs higher rpms, they're both going to be cut off at the same rpms which is the rev limter. So here's what I'm getting to, even though the F14 needs more rpms to get max hp, the T-ReX makes more power at a set rpms which is 6900 rpms. Does that make sense? In other words, 2 cams, the F14 needing more rpms, however, it still makes more power at a certain rpm which is 6900 in this case because I used that rpm as an example, would'nt the F14 be the cam to choose? Then when I get the funds to build the block for higher rpms, I can raise the limiter and shift points.

On the spring kits, I'll probably just go with the Patriot Golds because I can get them on sale.

On the Rollmaster, I have read that it's a little difficult to install and you must machine your crank pulley if you're using the old style ASP pulley. I have the newest version, the one that's SFI approved. I also read that since it needs to be spaced, getting the oil pick up tube is a pain. If the sprocket wear isnt an issue, then a single chain should be fine. I'm sure its better than a new factory one, would'nt you say? I read that the JWIS is the chain that is used in the C5R motor, is that true? If so, then I'm sure that it can handle a cammed motor. The only downfall to upgrading just the chain is that I won't be able to adjust it nor degree the cam. Are cams these days or at least for the LS1s designed to be installed straight up? I ask that because that would determine if there's any reason to buy an adjustable timing chain set other than degreeing it.

If custom cams weren't available, which cam would you go with if you were looking for a max effort cam?

Again, thanks jrp for your time, effort, and help!

Now I have the spring kit out the way. One down, 2 more to go. What spring kit are you using by the way?

fastmaro

Well I've eliminated the G5X3 because I can't justify $450 for a cam when there are others out there for $300 and up. I'm sure they don't make that much more power than other cams out there to make up for the extra money. From what I've read, it seems to be a good cam, but I'd rather save here and spend elsewhere. (no offense to LG Motorsports) Didn't really run into too much on the F14, so I'm going to boil it down to the T-ReX and the Magic Stick v.3. Also, another reason why I am choosing either one of these is because they're on sale till midnight tonight. I'm on a budget and any savings will help out a lot. I need to make a decision tonight as the sale listed on the cams below ends tonight. This is kind of a last minute thing. Pretty much everything is final except deciding on the cam and timing chain/set.

Magic Stick v.3 237"/242" .603"/.609" 113 lsa 2800-6700 rpm range $369.99

T-ReX 242"/248" .608"/.612" 110 lsa 3500-6700 rpm range $386.99

Both cams end at 6700 rpms. Does this necessarily mean that they peak there? How come the Magic Stick v.3 has a longer power band? I would think that the T-ReX would peak higher because of its higher specs, is that true?

Sorry to cram all these last minute questions, just trying to decide by late tonight. I hate to flip a coin on this one, I wish there was someone/something that could tell me that one will work better for my setup than the other. If I made a decision, I would be guessing.

fastmaro

Forgot to mention, but I am planning on installing the cam myself, I've run into some tools for cam swaps, who makes the best tools? Obviously a good valvespring tool is going to be needed. I'll probably just rent a crank pulley puller from Autozone or something. The only other thing I ran into was these rods that you slide into the engine somewhere so that the lifters dont fall through. I wasn't planning to do the TDC method, so I was thinking of picking up the fitting that goes into the spark plug hole to hold up the valves, is that a good idea? Anyway, just wondering what tools you recommend. If there is anything else that I left out, let me know. Thanks.

fastmaro

jrp, where did you go man? What do you think I should do? The cams that we're discussing, are they intended to be installed straight up? I know these are big cams, if they were advance or retarded, would piston to valve clearance be an issue?

jrp

iTrader: (16)

from what i've seen Trex has the highest dyno and track numbers compared to the MS3. but like i said, its all in the combo. i know the Trex has 2* advance so it should be installed straight up on a 108icl. not sure on the advance ground in if any on the MS3.

jrp

iTrader: (16)

if you dont want any headaches invest in a good spring tool, i'd suggest the crane one. cheaper ones will work but there not worth the aggrivatition. as far as rods the size is 3/8 or 5/16, i dont remember exactly off hand. i find TDC method to be easiest, using compressed air is to cumbersom to me. both methods will work though.

fastmaro

I searched through several sponsors and the only valvespring compressor tool I ran into was the More Performance one. Is that a good one? Where can I find the Crane one? This is a generalization, but if lots of sponsors carry the More Performance, isnt it a good tool?

I'm going to call TS&P tomorrow and get more details on the MS3. I think I wanna go with the MS3 to be different and maybe put down some good numbers (hopefully) to prove that it's a good cam as well. I saw on the fastest cam only list that most of them have the T-ReX, but I want to see what I can do with the MS3. They both peak roughly around 6300 and carry it to 6700. Which one do you think has more clearance? I'm sure with the 113 lsa, the MS3 will be more streetable correct?

I think I'm probably going to go with the Rollmaster that way if I ever decide to advance or retard the cam or even one in the future, I'll be able to do so.

Not sure I understand what you mean on the spark plug fitting tool/method. What did you mean?

jrp

iTrader: (16)

you'll find the consensus on the MORE tool to be less then favorable. the crane tool can be had at vinci that i know of, im sure others carry it as well. it does two springs at once.

the MS3 has more clearance, like i said, all of these big cams can be "streetable" when tuned properly.

using an air compressor was more cumbersom to me trying to get the line in straight in an already cramped engine bay. TDC method was straight forward and simple. thats been my experience anyway. you might have better luck with the compressor then i did, who knows.

fastmaro

I checked Vinci's site and the only tool they offered was the VHP one. It does 2 valvesprings at once. Why would doing 2 springs at once be a good thing if you can only do one at a time? Not doubting that its a good tool or better than another, just wondering. I personally have never used any of these tools besides the standard one that Autozone rents. Why would the More Performance be less than favorable?

BlueSix

A word on the powerband of the Trex...

SMOKIN01TA runs this cam and has said that if he trusted his stock rod bolts he would like to shift is 7200, possibly higher. It is a cam that seems to really like the RPM.

SMOKIN01TA

iTrader: (10)

i have gotten my best times shifting at 7100rpms, but my cam specd out a lil high also. 243/249. if i shortshift at 6600-6700 i only lose about .15 in et or so. i think with your setup you could bust off a ten shifting at 6700 and move it up later on when you finish upgrading stuff. for the record if you have a 01-02 dont be affraid to spin it up a lil more than the 98-00models. they have slightly better rodbolts. and im still running a stock timing chain, and my stock '01 ls6 oil pump. i changed all my vavlesprings with the more tool in a few hours on my first time around. its ok if you have the right extensions and stuff to make life easier. and on a side note, have a few extra spring keepers handy.

btw, i would recomend the jwis chain and a new oil pump though.
i jrp covered the rest of it pretty good as usual

fastmaro

SMOKIN01TA, what do you mean by your cam speced out a little high? When you said, "if i shortshift at 6600-6700 i only lose about .15 in et or so," did you actually try it out, or are you just guessing? It threw me off because you said if.

Those were my exact thoughts.

Why do you recommend the JWIS chain? Just wondering, wasnt sure if you had first hand experience since youre still running the stock chain. I think it may be too late, but I went ahead and put my order in for the Patriot Gold dual spring kit and Rollmaster heat treated double roller timing chain set, but I requested that my card wouldnt be charged till tomorrow. I got a good deal on it, so I jumped on it.

SMOKIN01TA

iTrader: (10)

the trex is supposed to be a 242/248 on a 110 mines a 243/249 on a 109.x so its a tad bigger but not much. i did short shifting when i was trying to determine proper shift pill size to run. i started small and went up till i netted best et. id say with good suspension and slicks you could proably manage a 10sec slip. im running crane dual springs and stock chain, the crane springs performed the best with this cam on the dyno curves, seemed to carry out the best. and i know alot of people that run the jwis chain and thats what im more than likely going with when i put heads on in a few months. imo you dont really need the dual for a cam only setup or h/c setup but i guess the extra insurance is always nice.
good luck

fastmaro

How did you verify the specs on the cam? Degreeing, cam doctoring, etc.? I haven't decide on a cam yet, but from what you said about only losing .15 ET by short shifting it by 500 rpms, then it should be very possibe for me to knock off a 10 by shifting it at 6650.

SMOKIN01TA

iTrader: (10)

have a cam card
and you not going to be able to leave the limiter at 6650, youll need to shift at 6700 and you limiter cant be where you shift at.

fastmaro

So did your cam get ground wrong? If the cam wasn't ground to specs, why did Thunder Racing sell you the cam?

The shift points are set at 6650 and the rev limiter is set at 6900.