Why are heads so expensive?
 

Why are heads so expensive? with my cam tr224 112lsa, I'm guessing stage 2 heads are all I need, but what the hell does stage 2 mean? lol
Can I have mine ported at a local machine shop to the same specs? Is there a place I can buy the head ported on exchange and do the assembly myself? $1700-$2300 is to much for me. I can assemble the valve train myself. Why so much just for porting and polishing? I want to get the most out of my cam, without having to throw another $2k down. Maybe I should look for a junker and start experimenting. Anyone port their heads themselves at home with ordinary household implements? How can you measure depth accurately while your cutting/grinding without a mill setup?
I'm getting bored. Need to work on something without breaking the bank. :chug:

I've done some port matching on mine but nothing like porting them.
It takes countless hours of experience to get good results from hand porting.

You can get a set CNC'c for not too much, then polish and finish them + assembly, that I think you (I) could do.

st 2 heads usually gets larger valves 2.02 1.57 but don't think the porting is any different.having a local shop do them could be a mistake. i've seem some local shope try to pore a ls1 head and not do so well.i would save money to be safe and know what your getting. speed inc heads,patroit and ap engineering all have heads around $1,500 to $1,700. i think ap engineering you can keep your old heads and sell them. the ap engineering st1 heads made near 400hp on their mustang dyno with a small 224 cam. i get tuned on that dyno so anything near 400hp on that thing is great. that dyno is a humbler it don't like to give #'s. goodluck yo ya.

Most of the head packages offered are a great value when you add up all the components and the design work.

i always wondered why so expensive myself.
leaves lots of other options on how to get power.



:offtopic: and damn i hope u are cookied like a mofo and dont have to sign it with that screen name every time [99_black_SS_m6_T's] :eek2:

they cost money b/c they know how to port them well, and you don't, basically. they've put the time and money into learning/figuring it out, and now they can charge you for it ;)

My cylinder heads are just what some guys like you may be looking for. They are a nice street head for guys just wanting alittle more out of thier combination and the price is way more down to earth.

just remember.... you get what you pay for:

if you want it fast and cheap: it wont be GOOD
if you want it fast and good: it wont be CHEAP
and if you want it good and cheap: it wont be FAST


IMO save your money, and do it right the first time

I agree.The best cost money.

I still say that most of these head packages are a great value.

Consider the parts you're getting:

GM aluminum blanks
high quality valves
Valve job
CNC machining for improved flow
Seals
locks
Springs
Retainers

TEAs getting 318cfm out of their offerings. How else are you going to get your modded LS1 to make power if you can't get heads that flow? Talk to any builder and they'll tell, you "power is made in the heads."

To top it off, you buy a set of heads from these guys and you get their expertise to guide you on what parts you'll need to fully compliment your project beast. :devil:

this is who i plan on going with when i get the $$!! TEA LS6 stg 2.5 :nod:

I don't think you could go wrong with TEA :thumb:

I would think you should be able to get some really good heads for $1500 or less. It depends on how much power gain makes it worth for you to spend how much money.

:offtopic: and damn i hope u are cookied like a mofo and dont have to sign it with that screen name every time [99_black_SS_m6_T's] :eek2:[/QUOTE]


cookies yum! Yea I know its long but I feked up :bang: when first entering so I'm stuck with it. cookies are your friend

Damn looks like I'll be saving for a while. Can anyone explain the stages of heads?
2, 2.5, 3. I know the power goes up with each stage but isnt there a certain point where my stock bottom end or cam doesnt need to go above? I have a TR224 with all the mods in my sig. But its still a stock bottom end. And with rotating assemblies going at 4-6k I'm not going to be changing that for a very long time.

I would go not bigger than a 2.02/1.57 valve set up. I would say that there isnt enough difference to speak of between a 2 and a 2.5 stage, usually a stage 3 is a "race" head.

stage 3 is also popularly thrown around when referring to stroker heads....when using even larger valves(2.08 or 2.10) and such...set up for "race" duty or not, in my experience.

99_black_SS_m6_T's, you can go post up in the Support forum near the top of the forum Index(forum main page) and ask PSJ or NineBall to change your screen name to something else that is not taken. they do it all the time!! :thumb:

I did a set of l98 heads myself and also did a set of lt1 heads. the l98 turned out fine, the lt1 had some probs and I had to get them redone, but it didn't cost too much. Where are you located???

I would definetly look at this guys heads. I plan on getting my cnc heads finished up by him pretty soon.

Part of it is supply and demand, people are willing to pay that price for them, so why would the lower it??
On a side note later this summer I will be selling my stage 2 heads for about $800, I can PM you when I do if you'd like? :)
-Stvee

See TEA's post in Sponsor Sale section. $100 separates their stage 1.5 to stage 2's, the only difference being the larger exhaust valve, and that really may not be worth doing.

Cylinder heads are the most important part in engine producing great power.
The main difference between an LT1 and a LS1 is Cylinder head design.
Better heads = more power.
Of course supporting mods need to be done also. The difference between company A and company B's heads always comes down to the things you don't see such as the quality of products put into the heads or the quality of the port design or of the machine work. The amount of time and detail put into the assembly process.
As a cylinder head company we see some crazy stuff. We have had our ports stolen by other companys. But with cylinder heads , like paintings and money,the copy is never as good as the original.
So while I understand that it may seem expensive to get a good set of cylinder heads, The reasons they cost alot are simple. CNC machines are not cheap,digitizers are not cheap, Shop equipment such as flow benchs,Valve grinders, mills etc are not cheap. Having the best equipment in the world is just about worthless if you do not have quality employees to run them. Quality employees are not cheap. Cylinder head copies are not as good as the original so having someone develope quality ports is not cheap. Having a cylinder head porter who knows his business is also expensive. Also take into consideration that the best product in the world will sit on the shelf gathering dust if you do not have quality people to spread the word about how great the product is. Us "sales people" are not cheap either ;)
Quality is the most important part of our business. It is not easy to attain and it does not come without cost. While we may not be the most affordable company out I feel our quality and customer commitment far out weigh any small difference in product pricing.
Brent
BTW do not take this post as bash. It is not intended to be like that I am just trying to explain the process as to how a cylinder head gets completed around here.

IMO I think the question to ask is why are some heads so cheap?:)

Well put, port copying happens more than people know. I am glad no one will ever accuse me of that :) . Machines, talent, and materials cost money- it just depend on how much you are willing to spend to have x amount of outcome.

Please do. who makes them?

"if you do not have quality people to spread the word about how great the product is. Us "sales people" are not cheap either ;) " :rotflmao:

how do you "steal" a port?

Also how do you know if one head is better than the other if everyone is using the same equiptment?
I know you can search for opinions, but there isnt a standout when you do that. Everyone will tout what ever they bought, unless it just plain blew up on them. Look out there you have SLP,TR - GTP, AFR/TEA, Patriot, G2(who make thiers) just to name a few? Its mind boggling :eek2:

if you want quality port and polishing with free assembly of your parts for a very good price, shoot me over a pm

exactly so why spend $2000+ for a ported ls1 or even ls6 head when you can get "Better" heads from AFR for the same price.

with the new heads that are out and that are suppose to be out ... gettin ported lsx heads for $2000+ is just stupid now.

Why not just model yours after one that is fast? Most guys have them in their sigs. What turns the numbers at the track is how I rate parts, not flow bench #'s. That's a reference point but not always what you should use to determine what you buy.

Look in the sponsor section I am selling a 5.3 stage 1.5 head that will run neck and neck with an AFR205 head. I have listed an average of 3 flow numbers to compare with the AFR205 head on the same bench.
You can buy our 1.5rev2 5.3 head,gaskets,bolts,timing chain,camshaft and an underdrive pulley for less that the cost of the AFR205 heads with the upgraded springs.:D What is the better deal? who will make the most power for less?
Also take into consideration,that unlike you, we also have to pay to advertise here, that does not come cheap either:judge:

fixed it. We are AFR dealers but are not partnered with them.

with my tr224 .563 .563 112 lsa cam and ls6 intake, ported tb, lt's; what would be the best head setup for me. My hp and tq is 372. I imagine I can get more out of tuning. but I'm hoping with heads to be around 410-425. Is that unrealistic? Your 1.5 and even 2.0 arent that bad of a price but what is best for me? With stock a botton end does enlarging the combustion chamber to 4.00 or 4.125 make sense for me?
Flow Intake and Exhaust Ports - is that port matching?
I like where my current power band is, just want more kick to it.

good job ... so you're sayin that these heads will outperform AFR's? ... i say that's a challenge, i got a completely stock ls1 from lid to 2.73gears i'd be willin to use for testing purposes :angel: ... but in all fairness they are cheaper and do flow well on your bench, but i don't think they'll outperfom afr's... good buy nonetheless. :cheers:

btw, i don't port/polish heads, i was just goin to refer him to a guy my buddy uses and his work looks and performs pretty well for what he charges.

its already been stated, you're not only paying for the heads, but also helping the company pay for all their equip, their employee's, their building, etc, it adds up.

I would take the bet with the deal being I get to bolt on AFR's only and then I get to bolt on TEA's with the cam, timing chain etc for the same price.
Hell I would even take the bet using the same exact setup TEA vs AFR that there is only a small difference.
You have 2 of the top heads available for the LS1 going head to head, there isn't gonna be a big difference innumber 1 vs number 2.
TEA makes a nice quality head and with Absolute speed being done it just makes it easier to decide between heads.
The only way to buy heads is to set a goal in what you want to achieve, and a budget you have to spend.
If the budget and goal dont work then you need to save some more money. Then you need to do research in the dyno section and track section.
See what combo's work the best.
Choose a few companys that you feel will meet your goals and start calling. Pick the one that sells the product the best and does the most to earn your business.
There are many good head porters out there, and having one that gets the job done quickly, produces consistant high power car's, and has good customer service is the one I would choose.
Remember in the price of the heads you have a good amount of money in parts.

Would ls6 heads be a direct bolton replacemt for my car? there is a set going cheap on ebay. Can someone explain the bore size? what is my current size, would 4.00 be better? and can I use a 4.00 bore head as a direct replacement?

I understand how you feel.Lots of people get caught up in the hype. AFR's are nice set of heads. They have a thick deck and make good power out of the box. They are great for power adder applications. However on a stock short block I think our 5.3 stage 1.5rev2 heads will perform right with them.
We have another set of AFR 205 heads coming in very soon.We also have a stock engine and several camshafts. We are taking all of the above parts along with a few sets of our heads to an engine dyno and we will post our results,good or bad.

LS6 heads will bolt on no problem. You have a 3.90 inch bore. Stay with heads made for that bore if you want them to work well.The valve train parts in the 2002 and up ls6 heads are better than the 2001 heads. They will work better than what you have but not as well as a set of ported 5.3's.
Good luck with whatever you choose.
Brent

OK question about 5.3 or 5.7... Isnt that the engine size? Dont I have a 5.7 Total confusement here? :bang: :( what is mine?

"The valve train parts in the 2002 and up ls6 heads are better than the 2001 heads." -- Is the bore on the piston bigger than on my 99?
Trying to understand why the heads are a bigger bore than mine.
And I do like the $1550 or what ever it is, even the 1789 for the stage 2's isnt that bad compared to AFR's and other stage 2 heads. I just need to ask all these questions to understand it all. :chug:

Or you could just get AFR heads from TEA and have them port the AFR heads!! BEST OF BOTH WORLDS!!

Thats what I am doing if AFR can get some castings out the door!!

what is the 5.3 and 5.7? what came with my car?

the difference is only in the casting they use. We prefer to port the 5.3 heads because they have a smaller combustion chamber so they net a little bit more compression. The only heads with a bigger bore than yours are 6.0l heads.
If you are really unsure of what heads would be best ask some of the members on here. And read, read read.. some very good advise goes on in this forum. I think it is best to read as much info as you can get and make and educated choice instead of just jumping into a purchase.
Brent

just a comment, you can change your member name by requesting a new one on the user support part..
anyways, i spent top dollar on my heads and i wouldnt have done otherwise. It really depends on how you value your car. My car is like a child to me and when you are doing serious, expensive stuff to your car like heads, you might as well pay the extra few hundred to get the best instead of regretting it later. I think you car comparing the price of the cam to that of the heads too much. Those both really go hand in hand

Brent,

Do you guys find the combustion chamber on some heads is better than others? I heard some people talking about how the LS6s like less timing than the 5.3s?

although it was posted before,i'll say it again."you get what you pay for".and it's not just about the port work.you can have a head that flows .300cfm at .550 lift or whatever but if the valve stem to guide clearance is excessive you will lose power,burn oil and the valve job will be shot in no time.theres a lot more work to a set of heads than just the port job,and the people that have the knowledge and patience to do this kind of work right usually charge more.you'll save money in the long run paying more up front for quality and have a dependable ride.i speak from experience, trying to save a buck has cost me more money than buying a set of "expensive heads" in the first place.do a search on here and you'll see whose heads consistently make power and last a long time doing it. just my .02

Yes we have. The more efficeint the chamber the less timing it needs. I think the regular 5.7 head needs the most IMO Vs. our 5.3 chamber. However our chamber is a lot different than the stock 5.3 chamber although it maintains its basic shape..

brentb with your 1.5 heads how much increase in hp should I see with my current setup?

30-45 depending on tuning,exhaust and how much compression you go withetc. It will be a noticable gain.

30-45...
:drool:

Brent,

Your posts are most helpful in explaining the whys and hows of quality cyliner heads. It's no wonder your company has the great reputation it does.

Thanks,
equandt