howard wolf

Now available - a complete list of FAQ's regarding the proper machining methods and correct installation proceedures for the Darton MID sleeve kit in the LS1/6 block. These come directly from Darton and Steve @ Race Engine Development (patent holder). Send me an e-mail, lcwolf03@comcast.net, and I'll reply with an attachment (it's 6 pages long). Many questions have been asked about how to resleeve LS blocks and this will provide accurate answers for anyone interested - especially engine builders.

sb427f-car

Does it also have details about strenghts as well as advantages / disadvantages to going the resleave route vs. say a C5R block? All I can say is, I wish world would hurry up and do an aftermarket LSx block to help drop the prices on all the other stuff.

Steve - Race Eng

iTrader: (1)

Howard is my first Block Pro CNC machine customer, was trained by me and knows the process well. He also has a stress relief machine. His info sheet will answer many questions.

Those of you with new blocks (sleeved or not) or heads should get your stuff stress relieved before putting your engine together if you want flat surfaces and round cylinder bores in service. For you fellows on the East Coast, especially those down south, Howard is the one to see about getting your block resleeved and your parts stress relieved.

I'd like to respond to the strengths, weaknesses of a sleeved block as compared to the C5R. Actually, we examined the C5R prior to finalizing the design of the Darton MID sleeve. At the time there were two options for a large bore LS1. Dry sleeve the block with it's inherent problems of dropped sleeves, out of round sleeves, cracked walls behind the sleeves with resultant leaking into the crankcase, or the expensive C5R which solved most of the above problems.

The C5R has pressed in dry liners in a block with heavy walls similar to the LS2 block in terms of aluminum behind the sleeve. The sleeves extend into the crankcase to provide some additional piston support for long stroke engines. The sleeves are gray iron, not high strength ductile iron. The C5R also includes steel main caps and studs from the factory replacing the stock powdered metal caps. Block is cast in 356 alloy where the stock blocks are cast in 319 alloy. Material strengths of these two alloys are very similar by the way.

We looked into extending the MID sleeves into the crankcase but decided against it. An unsupported sleeve section hanging in thin air is very difficult to hone. Lack of overstroke during honing makes it even more difficult.

There have been cases of the C5R splitting cylinder sleeves under high boost or nitrous. This happens with gray iron which is quite brittle compared to ductile iron. Gray iron has less than half the strength of the specially modified A356 ductile iron Darton uses.

Steel main caps and studs are a good idea on any high output engine. One can add steel caps to any of the LSX blocks. They are available from several tuner shops including Cartek and are also sold by Pro Gram Engineering for those wanting to do their own work.

I truly do not believe there is any inherent weakness in a properly machined MID block. The first blocks were indeed problematic but this has long since been resolved. There are however a couple of items that need attention. Coolant, and proper head gaskets. An MID block requires special MID specific Cometic head gaskets and Evans coolant. One can run water with wetter for racing but for street use (long life) you need Evans coolant to protect the sleeves from cavitation damage.

Regarding pricing. Most of you know what a C5R block costs. One can do an MID block with steel caps, ARP hardware for at least three grand less. Darton, by the way, guarantees the sleeves to be free from defects for a year after purchase.

I believe an aftermarket aluminum block would still be out of reach price wise for most guys. Should be lower than a C5R for sure. Hopefully an aftermarket block will have ductile iron liners.

We are currently working (will be available in a couple of weeks) on a large bore dry sleeve liner for the LS2 block to offer a less expensive alternative to the MID wet liner, and C5R. We will incorporate some special design features on the sleeves. Large diameter flanges will keep them in place. Pricing should be such that everyone will be able to afford a large bore LS2 engine. Conventional coolants can be used with dry liners but I still recommend Evans coolant for best protection against detonation related damage on any engine sleeved or not.

Note that the new LS2 dry sleeved blocks are not a replacement for an MID sleeved block for high output applications. The MID sleeves are much stronger than anything else on the market.

Steve

PREDATOR-Z

Steve,
How about Cryo treating the parts after stress relieving them? Especially for High CR or boost/ nitrous applications.
Have you guys ever done this?

Steve - Race Eng

iTrader: (1)

Yes, I have a set of cryoed sleeves here in fact for an H22 Honda engine. Cryo will increase the strength of ferrous and especially aluminum components. Does not work on titanium by the way.

Fellow I use here is: Travis at Cryo Science 760-427-2796. Fast service. Cost is $25 per sleeve.

Steve

jub jub

Hi Howard,

Do you plan on making these blocks available to us common folks?

ROCNDAV

iTrader: (100)

What kind of coolant is this Evans coolant? IS it similar to the orange, green, red..other?

D

howard wolf

Of course. Send me a PM with your snail mail address and I'll mail you
all the details (didn't I already give you one at the Macon GA Corvette show?).

Bear

iTrader: (1)

Hells Bells No!! Its a special brand and mixture. It costs $25 a gallon. I know, I was one of the first people to have the Darton MID motor. There were no cometic gaskets back then and I had coolant leaks. We removed the heads and replaced with the gaskets Steve recommends, and all is fine fione so far on 400 miles. I had problems by now last time. I like the motor, its a winner compared to a big cammed 346.

howard wolf

Here's an excerpt from the Darton sleeve FAQ list that will help answer your question:

Why do you recommend Evans coolant and their pump?

The stock GM pump volume is inadequate, especially on the right bank over 5000 rpm. Evans pumps flow more coolant. Just as important, an equal amount of coolant is supplied to each bank of cylinders. Pump part # is EP 3913.

When the block is machined for the MID sleeves, it's converted into a wet sleeve design (just like a diesel). The ductile iron sleeves need cavitation protection to prevent damage to the sleeve surfaces that are in contact with coolant. In a diesel engine, this is provided by mixing special additives into the coolant. Cavitation can, in time, eat a hole right through the sleeves.

The Evans coolant is not water based and will not cavitate. You don't need a high pressure radiator cap. Evans runs with a 0 7 lb. cap which reduces the chance of a blown hose and possible scalding . It will keep your engine intact should temperatures increase (approaching 300 degrees coolant temperature). Electrolytic damage is also greatly reduced or eliminated.

Evans also has high volume inlet style thermostats in stock. They are also working on a much higher volume outlet style thermostat housing for extreme power engines.

Evan's coolant is expensive but it's only needed once. The coolant does not need replacing and does not evaporate away like water. It is also enviro friendly compared with ethylene glycol.

Is it an absolute requirement to go with the Evans cooling system?

Yes, we prefer everyone use the Evans coolant and pump with the MID sleeve kits.

How much do the Evans water pumps cost?

The new casting runs $469.95 which includes a slightly smaller pulley to increase pump speed.

sb427f-car

Considering world sells their SBC (Gen II) blocks for south of 2k, I can't see an LSx block being more than the new Mod Ford block, which is close to 4k, last I checked. Considering that Speed Inc. prices out their MID blocks @ about 2400 bucks (product you are talking about correct?) from a marketing standpoint, as well as an engineering and product standpoint, if World does do an aftermarket LSx block, it will need to equal or beat its competition for nearly the same price or better. I'm not knocking your post, products, or methods, as a matter of fact just the opposite. The more options that are out there, the better the products become and the cheaper the prices get.

On another note, are yall working on a wet sleaved LS2? What differences are you running into with the Gen IV vs III with sleaving?

One last question (and maybe it was answered below as I haven't read since I posted) but i'm assuming the deck could be grooved to accept o-rings if a builder were to go this route instead of the MLS gasket? Keep on innovating, just means we get better, cheaper products.

sb427f-car

Ok, so there's another 500 bucks, takes one's current block, and get's back a MID block, so we're talking about 3k for a MID block. Still a bargin compared to a C5R block.

z-ya

iTrader: (1)

Evans coolant is propoleneglycol is it not.

Steve - Race Eng

iTrader: (1)

Evans is based on propylene glycol but contains other components.

Steve

UMD_Jesse

iTrader: (6)

Actually, you need to add a bit more than 500 bucks. Look at evans website. $469 for the pump but it also requires their $50 thermostat(Im sure its probobly gold plated though) and $50 serpentine belt. With their special coolant it looks to total around $600+

BUYAMERICAN

Great read. When buying my shortblock, I examined the C5R and the new Darton side by side and choose the newer Darton. The cylinder cooling holes looked far superior and even distributed. Nothing like keeping expansion/contraction rates even.

Steve - Race Eng

iTrader: (1)

Yes, it is possible to cut oring grooves in the sleeves if you intend to run copper head gaskets. I do this every so often on the high boost Hondas I install MID sleeves in. You can also put copper wire in the grooves for use with the MLS gasket.

Most of the aftermarket aluminum blocks are north of $4K in price. You can do an MID with steel caps, studs, align hone, finish bore and hone, for a lot less than $4K. Servicing would be much better also since individual sleeves can be replaced if necessary.

Steve

Visceral

iTrader: (1)

MTI does not require the use of Evans coolant or the for-mentioned water pump. I do not know the details otherwise.

When my engine becomes stable (ie not consuming oil through a *supposed* valve-guide, and not having lost coolant in ~2000 miles), I'll probably switch anyways. In the meantime, Im not driving the engine hard other than the occasional dyno pull.

I'm using the street time/mileage to do alot of tuning and learn about HPTuners.

Long term, if the block works out, I'll be having a 4" stroke assembly put in. We can re-examine for damage then.

If you don't want a re-sleeve soap opera, just call Steve and ask him who does the Darton sleeves really well. Don't listen to the shop itself... of *course* everyone thinks they do it right themselves.

Chris

howard wolf

Here's what is printed on the Evans container (1 gal.):

Evans NPG R is a high-performance, waterless engine coolant that eliminates cylinder head hotspots and the detonation it causes. NPG R will not freeze. Instead, it contracts in volume into a thick slurry at -10 degrees F. protecting engine blocks from cracking. The 400 degree F. boiling point (@7 psi) provides unsurpassed boilover protection and superior engine metal temperature control. Evans NPG R waterless formulation is compatible with all cooling system metals including magnesium. .......... The high boiling point of Evans NPG R keeps liquid coolant in constant contact with the jacket metal at all times.

sb427f-car

Ok, you're starting to pequie my interests. I did look @ world's site today, and you are correct that the Alum. ford mod block is about 4500. Factor in that it's an OHC means that there is more to engineer. Also more material for the physical size (only being able to get 358" out of a block the same physical size or larger than a Gen III) means there would be added costs. All of us are still speculating about what they will do, but if they can come up with a pressed in sleave, tall deck, quality casting that is way cheaper than the C5R, the new LS7 and in compairability to what you are indicating the prices are of your product, then we'll be seeing some big price drops in factory GenIII stuff. Again, right now, if someone wants to build a big inch Gen III without sacrificing the weight of the Gen III iron castings, the sleaved (be it wet or dry) is the way to go, unless of course you have lots of money and can afford to go C5R.

When you say a lot less that 4K, are you also talking about the evans h2o pump included in your price figure, or you just figuring the sleaving process, rough the cylinders, tq plt. honed, mains align honed, main studs, head studs, and billet caps? If that's the case, when it's time for me to build a "stout" piece, this may be the way I decided to go. Good reading thus far, and I'm glad you guys have taken the time to dispell some of the myths from the teething process. Oh, one last thing...what about provisions for dry sumping? Does the MID lend itself well to this form of oiling?