JBsC5

Hey Joe Prince.

You gave a detailed and honest appraisal of your research on the benefit of the reverse flow electric water pump.

Sounds like your a straight shooter giving us insight to what your product does.

And for that I wanted to say thanks..

Happy holidays and congratulations.

No bullsh-t ...just exactly what you have found ..

JB

JAS BLK 98 TA A4

[quote]if your combination can support 31 degrees of timing you would get similar results<hr></blockquote>

Jay, I've been running upto 31* on 93 octane without KR problems, etc and so have others here without a reverse cool pump. Most shops will tell you that going from 28* to 31* on an LS1 is of little benefit. So can you please explain how reverse cooling makes the 31*'s more benefical then 31*s on standard cool LS1?

Maybe you can post a RPM vs old timing/new timing table vs dyno gain change

Jay 95WS6

Terry
Once again, I will not allow my name to be associated with anything that is not of the highest quality standards, you seem to miss this point a lot. And again, we are in current negotiations with an outside source to test the pump and post their findings.

Chris Spiess

Terry,

If you can't say something nice....just shutup, or at least learn some tact.

jmX

[quote]Originally posted by JAS BLK 98 TA A4:
<strong>

Jay, I've been running upto 31* on 93 octane without KR problems, etc and so have others here without a reverse cool pump. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Me too...saw 31 degrees at WOT 3-4 times last night on the autotap on my ride....although I'm sure the 35 degree air helped make that possible. In the summer I see 29 or so.

Jay 95WS6

Jon you've made my point for me. If we can get you enough cooling so you can maintain 31 degrees of timing in the heat of summer with higher ambient temps would Joe and I be miracle workers? and would the pump be worth it at that point?
Jay

jmX

For 2 degrees of timing? No.

The pump will be worth the price you ask if it give the 15rwhp you say it does. I'd want one, badly...I just can't risk the cost for a product that might get me 2rwhp.

I obviously like the idea behind the product and the work that went into it or I wouldnt keep reading these threads, I'm just trying to give the perspective from an average poor chevy/pontiac owner. The cheaper kit, guarunteed, with cheaper fittings/hoses in the box ready to run will sell better if you can chop $200 off the price. Joe said there was what, $212 in fittings alone? Thats insane. Build it and they will come.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

27-28 degreest at WOT is stock IMO.

31 degrees at WOT is not bad.

Now 34-35 degrees and now we're talking. Like the LT1 cars.

Visceral

iTrader: (1)

I guess Im not too worried about the acutal # of degrees of timing I'll see. Its been dicussed that some engines are finding that more timing doesnt make more power. What I would like is to have in mind two deltas, power-wise only. Just swaping out the pumps, and then doing some dyno tuning. For all we know, we could go slightly leaner prior to detonation... who knows at this point (other than Jay and Joe). Testing on various configurations is the ONLY way to discover these things. We can't say at this point what success level they will have until then. I had one of the most powerful stock head cars out there (396rwhp/382rwtq), and it had totally stock timing #s.

We'll just have to wait and see...

chris

Terry Burger

iTrader: (4)

[quote]
If you can't say something nice....just shutup, or at least learn some tact
<hr></blockquote>

I'm sorry I seem to have confused LS1TECH as an LS1 discussion board.

Terry Burger

iTrader: (4)

[quote]
27-28 degreest at WOT is stock IMO.
31 degrees at WOT is not bad.

Now 34-35 degrees and now we're talking. Like the LT1 cars.
<hr></blockquote>

PSJ remember the LT1 cars run that much more timing because of differently shaped combustion chambers, not only because they are reverse cooled.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Oh, I did not know that.LT1's run more like 38 degrees of timing though.

Jay 95WS6

I'm going to have to side with Terry on this one, because he's correct about the LT1 combustion chamber being different. But, PSJ, LT1's with factory tuning will have up to 45 degrees of timing advance on decel and 40-41 on accel. But, understand this, the LS1 engine is a MUCH MORE efficient engine and requires no more then 30-31 degrees total timing to obtain optimum power production. LT1s ran more timing, because of a slightly less efficient design in both the combustion chamber and intake/exhaust port configuration (original design dates back to 1955).

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

How does an LT1 get away with MORE timing and MORE stock compression? Reverse cooling surely has something to do with the timing advance or compression.

Jay 95WS6

the design of the combustion chamber and the design characteristics of the SBC runner configuration. Reverse cooling let them run more timing so they could get more performance out of that "old" design. Conversly the LS1 was a clean sheet of paper design and has a more efficient runner/chamber design that doesn't require as much timing for proper flame propagation across the piston top. The LT1/LS1 are really apples and oranges when comparing the two, but in theory it is a nice discussion but we have to remember they are not the same animal

Jay

faster67

[quote]Originally posted by Pro Stock John:
<strong>How does an LT1 get away with MORE timing and MORE stock compression? Reverse cooling surely has something to do with the timing advance or compression.</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is a huge can of worms so I'll try to keep it as simple as possible to answer your LT1 versus LS1 question. When talking about timing numbers you have to look at it all as lead time. I'll give a quick, crude example.
I'll use your LT1 that's making max power with 41* of timing as an example. The piston is coming up on the compression stroke and at 41* Before Top Dead Center the spark plug fires and lights the mixture. Depending on about a jillion variables it takes X amount of time for the fuel/air to actually ignite and then go *BOOM*. Usually the *BOOM* should be somewhere between 6-10* After Top Dead Center for max power numbers. If you light the mixture too soon the *BOOM* will occure too close to TDC and energy will be wasted ramming the rod down into the crank instead of turning it. If you light the mixture too late you will not realize the full potential of your combustion chamber full of fuel and air. It's taking roughly 47-51* of crank rotation for the combustion process and that can be converted into a time frame. Generally speaking, the less lead time you have to use to get max power, the more efficient your combination is. Now take an LS1 and put it into the same situation. It makes max power with 28* of advance, so that's what we'll use. We light the mixture at 28* Before Top Dead Center and after the fuel and air do their magic *BOOM* dance and fall into that 6-10 After Top Dead Center window of opportunity, we have max power with only using 34-38* of crank rotation. With that being said, if you disabled the knock sensors and ran 41* of total timing on an otherwise stock LS1, you'd probably do nothing but kill performance and hammer the crap out of the rod bearings. Is an LT1 or LS1 better because of the lead time involved? Nah, they're just different.
So to answer your question, yes, reverse cooling has something to do with lead time used on an LT1. The variables that go into max performance timing numbers are endless. When you get down to it, everything matters.

-Bernie

shawn's SS

iTrader: (5)

where can I get one of those? EWP that is? <img src="graemlins/gr_chug.gif" border="0" alt="[chug]" />

Ebbsnflows

iTrader: (15)

Faster-
EXCELLENT job with that description! So many times we have knowledable posts on here, but they tend to lose alot in the transcription process. The author knows what he's trying to say, but the reader gets lost. You did an outstanding job of conveying exactly what you meant. I could picture in my mind, step by step what you were describing.
Good job! <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">

Jay 95WS6

they are available for order @www.jayfisherpontiac.com

Jay

MelloYellow

I believe Jim Hall just threw in the towel on that tough project. Cerra Racing has a single turbo C5 kit coming tho.

The ATI/Vortech people would like this.