Car won't start...HELP please!
 

I have a 00' WS-6. 347 c.i...Originally I was running thunder racing's TRAK camshaft and the car ran fine, no problems. I decided to switch to something a little bigger. I pulled it all apart, installed the camshaft straight up as it is supposed to be, then got everything back together and ready to start. I cycled the engine w/ the coil packs unplugged to lube everything, then cycled the fuel pump, turned the key and it fired right up instantly. It ran fine for about 5 to 10 sec and then just shut off and I can't get it to start back up.... It has spark/fuel pressure. I Checked to make sure all the sensors are plugged in, pulled a valve cover to make sure it wasn't a broken timing chain. Everything seems to be installed and working correctly, but the car just cranks and cranks and won't even try to fire.... I may try pulling the front cover and rotating the camshaft 180 degrees and lining it back up to see if maybe it was accidentally installed 180 degrees out, but I thought the ecu would learn the correct fire pattern eventually even if this is the case.... Any ideas what might cause this?

Sounds like a timing thing related to your install. I think you're on the right track in rotating the cam. Any codes when it stoped running?

You cannot install the cam 180 out on these motors. By straight up it needs to be dot to dot. I hope thats what you are saying. You are supposed to degree the cam in. Many people don't do it, dot to dot will suffice. How much larger is the cam than the one you took out? When I swapped cams my car didn't run at all. I had to make a garbage tune up just so I could get it to the dyno to have it tuned.

Hmmm..... So its is doubtful that rotating the camshaft will accomplish anything? Yes, by straight up, I mean dot to dot, I did not degree this camshaft in..... The TRAK cam is a 232/236 .595/.645 on a 112 + 2 and this new one is a 245/250 .613/.615 on a 114 + 4.... Thanks for the replies, I am still hunting the culprit....

You say you have spark and fuel and the cam was installed dot to dot. Are the grounds securely fastened on the rear of the head? Battery cables tight? Try switching a fan relay with your ignition relay and see if it starts.

I had the same problem when i installed my cam. I did dot to dot when piston 1 was at the bottom instead of TDC... yes i was in a hurry and yes i felt like a dumbass. The car cranked for and ran for a bit, but then died and would not start again. Once i did that it started up and ran like a champ ever since.

Yea, it has to be the number one piston at TDC. Thats why I took mine apart with number one at TDC.

Yes, it has spark and fuel. I tried switching out that relay to no avail, still nothing.... :(

Same with mine, i had spark + fuel. A friend of mine told me to spray starter fluid in it while trying to turn it over and if it blew it back out of the intake i had a timing issue (therefore dot to dot not being with #1 TDC) idk how true it was since he works mainly on older SBC's but it just so happened in my case. Its worth a shot atleast if you didnt double check to make sure #1 was TDC when you did dot to dot and dont wanna pull eveything apart.

If he did dot to dot, that's it, no other "check for TDC" is needed.

That's the whole purpose of the dots - if you line them up IT HAS TO BE CORRECT...

The crank is keyed and the cam has a dowel, so both crank and cam sprockets are locked into one position. Line up the dots, and you are ready to go.

but the crank can be on the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke.....

Sorry, that's incorrect, because the crank does not by itself "know what stroke of the 4 stroke cycle it is on". It needs the camshaft to tell it that..... but I can see where the confusion is.

Here's where people get tripped up - the crank can only be in one position right? Crank dot facing up. So there is no question about that. No matter what you do, there is no way to get the crank in the wrong orientation. If you rotate the dot 360 degrees, so it is pointing up again, nothing has changed. All the pistons are in the same correct spots again.

Now, take the camshaft. You can only install the camshaft one way. This is because it is locked to the cam sprocket by a dowel, and the cam sprocket dot has to point to the crank gear dot. This forces everything to align properly.

When building your engine, "dot to dot" puts all the pistons in the correct spot AND forces the camshaft to be in the correct position.

So basically if you do dot to dot, there is only one configuration your engine can be in - the correct one. No need to worry about TDC on #1.

Did you check your grounds?

Update: Pulled everything back apart to check for dot to dot w/ cylinder #1 at TDC and it checked out whether its relevant or not....

I have several extra grounds, I believe a total of 4 solid grounds on the motor.

All the sensors seem to be in tact and working, I checked continuity between the pigtail terminals and the wire about 6 inches down just to make sure it wasn't a bad pigtail as I have replaced both the Cam and crank position sensors recently. I can't find any popped fuses and no codes were thrown...I am at a loss. Any more ideas?

Thanks again for all the help!

some people dont need to give advice on what to do! do not rotate the cam 180, if it is dot to dot thats all you need to know about that, you need to verify it is a for sure that it is dot to dot and not a tooth or two off, i would make sure that first, but the fact that it ran for a few minutes makes me wonder if possibly the timing chain sprocket may have turned on the crank, so i would go ahead and do a compression test, and verify that also, because remember if you have air, fuel, fire, and compression than it should be running.

Alright, I am still fighting this thing. I have torn it apart twice and put it back together and both times it did the same thing...Started right up, shut off, then wouldn't start again. How long does it take the ecu to learn the firing order of the engine from the crank/cam position sensors? Is it possible that all it needs is just to keep cranking and eventually it will learn? Any ideas? Thanks.

All the grounds are tight?

It doesn't learn the firing order. There is a specific firing order already set. Did you change injectors? Maybe you just need a tune with the new cam. I told you that mine didn't even fire with the original tune.

The only thing that has changed since the last setup is the cam....Fuel pump/injectors/intake/tb/exhaust is all exactly the same. I was running the TRAK cam which is a 232/236 .595/.645 on a 112... This one is a 245/250 .613/.618 110.... I would think that the tunes would be close enough that it would at least stay running somewhat. I have all the factory grounds plus a couple extra all attached, so I don't think it is a ground issue.

Different lsa, a pretty decent difference in duration, more intake lift, less exhaust lift, I'd still have to say that could be the problem.