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Need 120mm drive by wire throttle body

 
Old 06-06-2019, 11:37 PM
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Default Need 120mm drive by wire throttle body

Hey all.. I have a real mean 427CID LS3 combo that I need to run at least a 120mm if not a 140mm Throttle body. This may seem like overkill but on high rpm, high compression, e85, huge cam setups these oversized bore TB's unlock huge HP if you have the right head flow and intake manifold. This is not needed for torque or any type of forced induction (well.. some S/C's would beneifit from the giant mamouth one) but all simulations show increasing the TB size on my setup gains like 200HP if you put the intake on too.

Cam is approximately 265 duration @ 50, 0.650" lift, 115.5 lobe sep, got the full Jesel shaft rocker setup, oversized del west ti valves, all forged rotating with 12.5:1 pistons and big *** headers. two CTSV fuel pumps.. you get the idea.

Heads are custom race car heads with raised ports like over 0.5" over std. LS3 and LS7. The ports are so huge and elevated we are stuck with the intake off the original race car along with its phenolic 1/2" thick spacer to make it fit. they are not even ported and flow over 360CFM on the intakes, chamber is worked and also heads are milled to 68cc I think.

The one off original cast aluminum race car Intake is limited to 90mm tb opening. it also has huge long runners and is real low profile.

Simulation shows only 650HP at 7000 rpm with the current setup - flattens out at 6000 and rev's do almost nothing. Put the big huge TB and tunnel ram intake on it makes power peak at 8500 RPM and about 200 more HP, but you do loose a lot under 5000 RPM. I don't give a **** since its no traction down there anyway.

A where can I get a huge TB with drive by wire?
B what should I do about the intake? thinking about getting the fast tunnel ram and making new 3d printed adapters
C Is it possible to mod my factory aluminum race intake to take the new TB? or are the runners simply too long and plenum too small for that to work?

Any help appreciated I want to avoid any of the custom billet setups - with NA lack of power I need all the extra power from those harmonic pressure waves to work in my favor. CFD + race proven stuff like factory, fast, and MSD are what i'm looking to use. many thanks!!

Last edited by twistedneck; 06-11-2019 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 06-07-2019, 12:37 AM
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What about using two smaller TB's whose total area equals the 120mm /TB?
That would be an 85mm TB, and 87mm DBW TB's are used on every Gen IV truck engine.
If you can wire two of those to run together your problems are solved,
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Old 06-07-2019, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by G Atsma View Post
What about using two smaller TB's whose total area equals the 120mm /TB?
That would be an 85mm TB, and 87mm DBW TB's are used on every Gen IV truck engine.
If you can wire two of those to run together your problems are solved,
Good idea, what is the highest rpm intake that would go with it? I only know of the Edlebrock and don't know if that has enough flow potential??

Custom tunnel ram is $$$ and that intake by Harrop is ridiculous.

What is the de facto high rpm max effort setup??

Last edited by twistedneck; 06-07-2019 at 01:06 AM.
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Old 06-07-2019, 01:04 AM
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Good question on the intake. There are some newer ones that use twin TB's but don't know the names off hand.
It all comes down to CFM, not RPM so much. If you know the CFM your engine inhales at the RPM you will be running, go from there.
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Old 06-07-2019, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by twistedneck View Post
Hey all.. I have a real mean 427CID LD3 combo that I need to run at least a 120mm if not a 140mm Throttle body. This may seem like overkill but on high rpm, high compression, e85, huge cam setups these oversized bore TB's unlock huge HP if you have the right head flow and intake manifold. This is not needed for torque or any type of forced induction (well.. some S/C's would beneifit from the giant mamouth one) but all simulations show increasing the TB size on my setup gains like 200HP if you put the intake on too.

Cam is approximately 265 duration @ 50, 0.650" lift, 115.5 lobe sep, got the full Jesel shaft rocker setup, oversized del west ti valves, all forged rotating with 12.5:1 pistons and big *** headers. two CTSV fuel pumps.. you get the idea.

Heads are custom race car heads with raised ports like over 0.5" over std. LS3 and LS7. The ports are so huge and elevated we are stuck with the intake off the original race car along with its phenolic 1/2" thick spacer to make it fit. they are not even ported and flow over 360CFM on the intakes, chamber is worked and also heads are milled to 68cc I think.

The one off original cast aluminum race car Intake is limited to 90mm tb opening. it also has huge long runners and is real low profile.

Simulation shows only 650HP at 7000 rpm with the current setup - flattens out at 6000 and rev's do almost nothing. Put the big huge TB and tunnel ram intake on it makes power peak at 8500 RPM and about 200 more HP, but you do loose a lot under 5000 RPM. I don't give a **** since its no traction down there anyway.

A where can I get a huge TB with drive by wire?
B what should I do about the intake? thinking about getting the fast tunnel ram and making new 3d printed adapters
C Is it possible to mod my factory aluminum race intake to take the new TB? or are the runners simply too long and plenum too small for that to work?

Any help appreciated I want to avoid any of the custom billet setups - with NA lack of power I need all the extra power from those harmonic pressure waves to work in my favor. CFD + race proven stuff like factory, fast, and MSD are what i'm looking to use. many thanks!!
That's once crazy build.
I have never heard of anyone running a throttle body that large.
Would they even make them that size?
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Old 06-07-2019, 02:02 AM
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We did this one on a couple different engine sims before building it.. it gets dyno'd and tuned in next week ($$$ injectors) and a few other small things to button up with the E85 setup.

with very careful measurements and inputs both sims showed the same thing, keep adding tunnel ram and throttle body size up to 2500 cfm (yea, you lose low and mid torque but the huge cam loves it up top).

strange thing is, no idea why but it told us to stay clear of the 2 and 2 1/8" primaries with the 427 - those only made more power with the huge 447 and 452 cid setups for some reason. and another oddity, mufflers made a **** load of difference. I guess these super restrictive stock G8 mufflers have huge pressure drop. its quiet during idle with these giant cans - see attached vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0bH...ature=youtu.be
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Old 06-07-2019, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by twistedneck View Post
We did this one on a couple different engine sims before building it.. it gets dyno'd and tuned in next week ($$$ injectors) and a few other small things to button up with the E85 setup.

with very careful measurements and inputs both sims showed the same thing, keep adding tunnel ram and throttle body size up to 2500 cfm (yea, you lose low and mid torque but the huge cam loves it up top).

strange thing is, no idea why but it told us to stay clear of the 2 and 2 1/8" primaries with the 427 - those only made more power with the huge 447 and 452 cid setups for some reason. and another oddity, mufflers made a **** load of difference. I guess these super restrictive stock G8 mufflers have huge pressure drop. its quiet during idle with these giant cans - see attached vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0bH...ature=youtu.be
There are a lot of people saying you make more power with 2 inch primaries on LS3's, stroker engines and also on the LS7.
The biggest you should go is 1 7/8 which is what I have on LS 408.
You might need 2 inch if you are over 1000hp
I did a swap on mine once going from 1 3/4 to 1 7/8, retuned engine and I only gained 1.5rwhp up top.
The rest of the curve was the same.
I believe 1 3/4 is enough for up to 7-800hp
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Old 06-07-2019, 02:50 AM
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That's an aggressive idle
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Old 06-07-2019, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by bortous View Post
There are a lot of people saying you make more power with 2 inch primaries on LS3's, stroker engines and also on the LS7.
The biggest you should go is 1 7/8 which is what I have on LS 408.
You might need 2 inch if you are over 1000hp
I did a swap on mine once going from 1 3/4 to 1 7/8, retuned engine and I only gained 1.5rwhp up top.
The rest of the curve was the same.
I believe 1 3/4 is enough for up to 7-800hp
Glad to hear that real world agrees.. the 1 - 7/8" look big enough on the small LS head too. same as like a 2 1/8" looks on a BBC head.

one thing that it did like was a little bit larger and longer collector pipe, but we were stuck with what ever kooks had for the G8.


Originally Posted by bortous View Post
That's an aggressive idle
bortous its got those short travel comp cams lifters - it needs a solid roller but those will do!


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Old 06-08-2019, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by twistedneck View Post
Glad to hear that real world agrees.. the 1 - 7/8" look big enough on the small LS head too. same as like a 2 1/8" looks on a BBC head.

one thing that it did like was a little bit larger and longer collector pipe, but we were stuck with what ever kooks had for the G8.




bortous its got those short travel comp cams lifters - it needs a solid roller but those will do!
Good to hear!
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Old 06-08-2019, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bortous View Post
Good to hear!
here is the cam card. smaller than i remembered.

might not need the full 120mm now (2000 cfm).


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Old 06-09-2019, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by twistedneck View Post
here is the cam card. smaller than i remembered.

might not need the full 120mm now (2000 cfm).

Damn man that is one big *** cam. It is very top end bias. With an IVC of 58 and EVO of 73 your power will be concentrated in the top end only.
You won't have any low end or mid range with this stick and you are right, there wont be much happening below 5000rpm.
I'm not sure about needing a massive 120mm throttle body but you will certainly need an aftermarket intake.
You will need to use a FAST intake with the mid length runners at a minimum which would probably give you the best driveability.
Or else you will need to go with a single or dual plane intake if you want to rev even higher.
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Old 06-09-2019, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by bortous View Post
Damn man that is one big *** cam. It is very top end bias. With an IVC of 58 and EVO of 73 your power will be concentrated in the top end only.
You won't have any low end or mid range with this stick and you are right, there wont be much happening below 5000rpm.
I'm not sure about needing a massive 120mm throttle body but you will certainly need an aftermarket intake.
You will need to use a FAST intake with the mid length runners at a minimum which would probably give you the best driveability.
Or else you will need to go with a single or dual plane intake if you want to rev even higher.
bortous i agree w all your points the issue is with these half inch raised runners ainít no intake even close to fitting!

also if u look at the super max effort guys doing 10,000 rpm plus they are all using custom tunnel ram setups. zillion $ and no cfd in the design thatís why the new fast plastic tunnel ram setup has caught my eye but iíll need to 3d print adapters.
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Old 06-10-2019, 03:56 PM
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CID might have a suitable intake


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Old 06-11-2019, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by twistedneck View Post
bortous i agree w all your points the issue is with these half inch raised runners ainít no intake even close to fitting!

also if u look at the super max effort guys doing 10,000 rpm plus they are all using custom tunnel ram setups. zillion $ and no cfd in the design thatís why the new fast plastic tunnel ram setup has caught my eye but iíll need to 3d print adapters.
There will be testing of a 112TB on the new FAST next month, but max RPM will be around 7700 RPM
I also have a buddy running a pair of 90mm OEM,s on a ported Holley Hi-RAM and a custom billet dual tb lid made by Visner.....should see some numbers soon on that as well......8K RPM target
Ryne Cunningham also ran a custom Thompsen dual throttle body on his 477 a few years back....also a 8K RPM setup.
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Old 06-12-2019, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by fnbadaz06 View Post
There will be testing of a 112TB on the new FAST next month, but max RPM will be around 7700 RPM
I also have a buddy running a pair of 90mm OEM,s on a ported Holley Hi-RAM and a custom billet dual tb lid made by Visner.....should see some numbers soon on that as well......8K RPM target
Ryne Cunningham also ran a custom Thompsen dual throttle body on his 477 a few years back....also a 8K RPM setup.
When you say the new fast, are you referring to the polymer ram that hasn't been released yet?
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Old 06-12-2019, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by bortous View Post
When you say the new fast, are you referring to the polymer ram that hasn't been released yet?
Yes sir
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by fnbadaz06 View Post
Yes sir
When you do the test can you compare the same engine to the long and high rpm runner fast?
Would be good to see the differences.
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by bortous View Post
When you do the test can you compare the same engine to the long and high rpm runner fast?
Would be good to see the differences.
Unfortunetly, I don't own a regular FAST 102 anymore, so it won't be part of my testing.

I have a Mamo ported MSD, and have access to the Holley Hi-Ram, both using a 102tb, that I will be testing.
The new FAST Hi-Ram , I have all 3 sets of runners that I will be testing.
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by fnbadaz06 View Post
Unfortunetly, I don't own a regular FAST 102 anymore, so it won't be part of my testing.

I have a Mamo ported MSD, and have access to the Holley Hi-Ram, both using a 102tb, that I will be testing.
The new FAST Hi-Ram , I have all 3 sets of runners that I will be testing.
These HPR 468's are like torture tests for intake manifolds lol
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