New: Edelbrock Splayed Valve Head
07-27-2010, 02:11 AM
#122
There isnt a chance in hell these castings would go for 4k assembled..Im sure the cheapest you could get by with them with "basic" parts is 6500 or so. Gotta remember the valves are custom as no one makes a shelf valve for these from what I remember. A tricked out set...probably 8500 assembled would be my guess.
I'm going to say that the valves are off the shelf. That said, The labor to port these heads will be the single biggest cost. The hardware alone will be no more expensive than what I have invested in my ETP's. So, for those considering them, add anywhere from $2000 to $5000 over what my top end wound up costing. I'm calling Edelbrock tomorrow to get some additional information.
If you were to run these heads I take it you would be looking to run .470-.500" lift lobes?
On a similar build using PI LS7 285 heads, .800 lift.
PAC 1328 springs $400
Xceldyne 8º retainers $377
Xceldyne 8º locks $110
Xceldyne lash caps $200 (titanium valves)
Running 350 seat/ 850 open, the chinese Ti retainers and stamped locks
arn't gonna cut it.
Figure you're gonna run copper intake seats with Ti valves? $400
Pushrods, $140 will get you some 3/8" pushrods .080 wall, would be like a soggy noodle with that vavletrain, you're going to want 3/8 or 7/16" heavy wall pushrods Manley, Trend, Manton, our pushrods for the above build were $500, three pc. 7/16" with tool steel ends. Trend or Manley pushrods .135" wall run $250.
.904" lifters are $750
I'd expect closer to $3000 for a sheetmetal intake
It starts to add up quick.
On a similar build using PI LS7 285 heads, .800 lift.
PAC 1328 springs $400
Xceldyne 8º retainers $377
Xceldyne 8º locks $110
Xceldyne lash caps $200 (titanium valves)
Running 350 seat/ 850 open, the chinese Ti retainers and stamped locks
arn't gonna cut it.
Figure you're gonna run copper intake seats with Ti valves? $400
Pushrods, $140 will get you some 3/8" pushrods .080 wall, would be like a soggy noodle with that vavletrain, you're going to want 3/8 or 7/16" heavy wall pushrods Manley, Trend, Manton, our pushrods for the above build were $500, three pc. 7/16" with tool steel ends. Trend or Manley pushrods .135" wall run $250.
.904" lifters are $750
I'd expect closer to $3000 for a sheetmetal intake
It starts to add up quick.
Guy's I will say one thing here.
Their is not a chance that using thses heads would cost less then $15,000 when said and done. Also by the time you add up all the other parts that you need to go with it all it will be well more then that. I have over $5000 in lifters, rockers and push rods into parts for my PI heads. Anyway if you plan on getting a set you can't worry about the cost.
Their is not a chance that using thses heads would cost less then $15,000 when said and done. Also by the time you add up all the other parts that you need to go with it all it will be well more then that. I have over $5000 in lifters, rockers and push rods into parts for my PI heads. Anyway if you plan on getting a set you can't worry about the cost.
07-27-2010, 03:01 AM
#123
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Why on god's green earth would you cut corners? A home port job and some catalog parts aren't going to save you any money down the road when said parts take a dump and you trash the top end(and bottom end in all probability). That once 12-15k top end(done the right way) now becomes twice that. There is a lot to be said for doing it right the first time, and if you don't want to spend the change to do it right the first time, these aren't the heads for you.
07-27-2010, 08:01 AM
#124
A pump gas 555cid BBC with RFD Edelbrock heads (same guy doing the LSR heads) would smoke any size LSX with any LSR, LXR or whatever heads and COST HALF as much to build. This thread is getting out of whack...
07-27-2010, 09:03 AM
#125
New bullet is going to get one, it's sitting here looking pretty on an engine stand. It's not exactly what I wanted.. but what I paid for it I could part this motor out really easy, and make 3 grand on it.. so I can't complain.
For what I want, it should work. Just need a moroso pan, intake, injectors and rails, Tb, balancer and a vacuum pump&drive for it, and the motor is ready. (another 5 grand essientially)
For what I want, it should work. Just need a moroso pan, intake, injectors and rails, Tb, balancer and a vacuum pump&drive for it, and the motor is ready. (another 5 grand essientially)
07-27-2010, 03:18 PM
#128
I don't want this thread go of topic but if you were going to buy a set of these heads why wouldn't build the motor full tilt. It doesn't matter if you are building a Drag Radial, Outlaw 10.5 or a bracket car. Anyone willing to spend $1500 each for a rough un-ported casting should understand the cost involved in making it final.
You can't compare a LS and BB Chevy for prices on shelf type parts. The sales volume is no where the same and their-fore making it not as cost effective on LS stuff.
Now skip over the off the shelf parts like these heads and look at prices. You now have to pay someone to sit a design a port design, make as many changes it takes to get them right, cost of wasted castings for RnD etc... You also have to pay the guy for the time it takes a $500,000 5-Axis CNC to port the final head, take it out to a $200,000 CNC lathe and mill to finish it off. I will tell you Curtis ( RFD ) Cary ( PI ) etc... will not touch it for less then $3000-$4000 to finish them off. Their is a lot of time involved and money that get's invested. All for a LOW VOLUME #'s. Their is the cost. Call Sonny, CFE, Dart and see what the non shelf heads go for. I know, I deal with or have dealt with them all. We do this stuff every day here at our shop for our-selfs.
Now you have to put parts in that bare casting and if you think you could cut cost on the parts your crazy. If you don't plan on revving the thing or putting a .850 or cam in it the heads would be a waste anyway. Also once you get into big lift now you need the parts to handle the spring pressure you have to run. Try running a $400 set of lifters, $200 Push Rods and $750 set of rockers with 400PSI static and 1200PSI open. You can't do a thing if you don't have valve control. I have seen cost effective stuff run on the spintron. Your going to have a big pile of scrape before you ever get anywhere and have to buy parts twice or 3 times until you see that the entry level or middle of the road stuff will not work. At the end of the day it will have cost me less to wait and do it right then to try and save a little here and their.
You can't compare a LS and BB Chevy for prices on shelf type parts. The sales volume is no where the same and their-fore making it not as cost effective on LS stuff.
Now skip over the off the shelf parts like these heads and look at prices. You now have to pay someone to sit a design a port design, make as many changes it takes to get them right, cost of wasted castings for RnD etc... You also have to pay the guy for the time it takes a $500,000 5-Axis CNC to port the final head, take it out to a $200,000 CNC lathe and mill to finish it off. I will tell you Curtis ( RFD ) Cary ( PI ) etc... will not touch it for less then $3000-$4000 to finish them off. Their is a lot of time involved and money that get's invested. All for a LOW VOLUME #'s. Their is the cost. Call Sonny, CFE, Dart and see what the non shelf heads go for. I know, I deal with or have dealt with them all. We do this stuff every day here at our shop for our-selfs.
Now you have to put parts in that bare casting and if you think you could cut cost on the parts your crazy. If you don't plan on revving the thing or putting a .850 or cam in it the heads would be a waste anyway. Also once you get into big lift now you need the parts to handle the spring pressure you have to run. Try running a $400 set of lifters, $200 Push Rods and $750 set of rockers with 400PSI static and 1200PSI open. You can't do a thing if you don't have valve control. I have seen cost effective stuff run on the spintron. Your going to have a big pile of scrape before you ever get anywhere and have to buy parts twice or 3 times until you see that the entry level or middle of the road stuff will not work. At the end of the day it will have cost me less to wait and do it right then to try and save a little here and their.
07-27-2010, 05:59 PM
#130
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I don't want this thread go of topic but if you were going to buy a set of these heads why wouldn't build the motor full tilt. It doesn't matter if you are building a Drag Radial, Outlaw 10.5 or a bracket car. Anyone willing to spend $1500 each for a rough un-ported casting should understand the cost involved in making it final.
You can't compare a LS and BB Chevy for prices on shelf type parts. The sales volume is no where the same and their-fore making it not as cost effective on LS stuff.
Now skip over the off the shelf parts like these heads and look at prices. You now have to pay someone to sit a design a port design, make as many changes it takes to get them right, cost of wasted castings for RnD etc... You also have to pay the guy for the time it takes a $500,000 5-Axis CNC to port the final head, take it out to a $200,000 CNC lathe and mill to finish it off. I will tell you Curtis ( RFD ) Cary ( PI ) etc... will not touch it for less then $3000-$4000 to finish them off. Their is a lot of time involved and money that get's invested. All for a LOW VOLUME #'s. Their is the cost. Call Sonny, CFE, Dart and see what the non shelf heads go for. I know, I deal with or have dealt with them all. We do this stuff every day here at our shop for our-selfs.
Now you have to put parts in that bare casting and if you think you could cut cost on the parts your crazy. If you don't plan on revving the thing or putting a .850 or cam in it the heads would be a waste anyway. Also once you get into big lift now you need the parts to handle the spring pressure you have to run. Try running a $400 set of lifters, $200 Push Rods and $750 set of rockers with 400PSI static and 1200PSI open. You can't do a thing if you don't have valve control. I have seen cost effective stuff run on the spintron. Your going to have a big pile of scrape before you ever get anywhere and have to buy parts twice or 3 times until you see that the entry level or middle of the road stuff will not work. At the end of the day it will have cost me less to wait and do it right then to try and save a little here and their.
You can't compare a LS and BB Chevy for prices on shelf type parts. The sales volume is no where the same and their-fore making it not as cost effective on LS stuff.
Now skip over the off the shelf parts like these heads and look at prices. You now have to pay someone to sit a design a port design, make as many changes it takes to get them right, cost of wasted castings for RnD etc... You also have to pay the guy for the time it takes a $500,000 5-Axis CNC to port the final head, take it out to a $200,000 CNC lathe and mill to finish it off. I will tell you Curtis ( RFD ) Cary ( PI ) etc... will not touch it for less then $3000-$4000 to finish them off. Their is a lot of time involved and money that get's invested. All for a LOW VOLUME #'s. Their is the cost. Call Sonny, CFE, Dart and see what the non shelf heads go for. I know, I deal with or have dealt with them all. We do this stuff every day here at our shop for our-selfs.
Now you have to put parts in that bare casting and if you think you could cut cost on the parts your crazy. If you don't plan on revving the thing or putting a .850 or cam in it the heads would be a waste anyway. Also once you get into big lift now you need the parts to handle the spring pressure you have to run. Try running a $400 set of lifters, $200 Push Rods and $750 set of rockers with 400PSI static and 1200PSI open. You can't do a thing if you don't have valve control. I have seen cost effective stuff run on the spintron. Your going to have a big pile of scrape before you ever get anywhere and have to buy parts twice or 3 times until you see that the entry level or middle of the road stuff will not work. At the end of the day it will have cost me less to wait and do it right then to try and save a little here and their.
07-27-2010, 07:03 PM
#131
Seriously that's moving man, congrats on that it's got to be a huge effort!
How off am I thinking that 8.50 can be done @ 2800 lbs with a liberty transmission... what am I looking at for n/a power to get there, I'm guessing 760 to 800 at the tires, maybe less with the weight, and liberty?
How off am I thinking that 8.50 can be done @ 2800 lbs with a liberty transmission... what am I looking at for n/a power to get there, I'm guessing 760 to 800 at the tires, maybe less with the weight, and liberty?
07-27-2010, 07:37 PM
#132
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Seriously that's moving man, congrats on that it's got to be a huge effort!
How off am I thinking that 8.50 can be done @ 2800 lbs with a liberty transmission... what am I looking at for n/a power to get there, I'm guessing 760 to 800 at the tires, maybe less with the weight, and liberty?
How off am I thinking that 8.50 can be done @ 2800 lbs with a liberty transmission... what am I looking at for n/a power to get there, I'm guessing 760 to 800 at the tires, maybe less with the weight, and liberty?
07-27-2010, 07:39 PM
#133
Why on god's green earth would you cut corners? A home port job and some catalog parts aren't going to save you any money down the road when said parts take a dump and you trash the top end(and bottom end in all probability). That once 12-15k top end(done the right way) now becomes twice that. There is a lot to be said for doing it right the first time, and if you don't want to spend the change to do it right the first time, these aren't the heads for you.
Having better heads on the car means I won't have to push it as hard to make the same power I would otherwise. Like we mentioned before the price of parts to assemble these are the same as they would be for other heads, but you're picking up roughly an extra 70cfm through the curve. Not having to push the engine as hard is easier on parts which is the exact opposite of what you're talking about. If I was looking to run 6.90s I wouldn't skip any little detail either. All I'm simply talking about is running 1.550 dual springs instead of some crazy 1.6x triple springs. I'm not talking about trying to use stock rockers and 5/16ths pushrods.
07-28-2010, 04:46 AM
#134
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I'm not building a car to run 6.90s in the 1/4, that's why. I'm looking to have something that is cruisable with AC, PS, and will run a 7.9x on a kill tune with consistant 8.20s at around 3000lbs.
Having better heads on the car means I won't have to push it as hard to make the same power I would otherwise. Like we mentioned before the price of parts to assemble these are the same as they would be for other heads, but you're picking up roughly an extra 70cfm through the curve. Not having to push the engine as hard is easier on parts which is the exact opposite of what you're talking about. If I was looking to run 6.90s I wouldn't skip any little detail either. All I'm simply talking about is running 1.550 dual springs instead of some crazy 1.6x triple springs. I'm not talking about trying to use stock rockers and 5/16ths pushrods.
Having better heads on the car means I won't have to push it as hard to make the same power I would otherwise. Like we mentioned before the price of parts to assemble these are the same as they would be for other heads, but you're picking up roughly an extra 70cfm through the curve. Not having to push the engine as hard is easier on parts which is the exact opposite of what you're talking about. If I was looking to run 6.90s I wouldn't skip any little detail either. All I'm simply talking about is running 1.550 dual springs instead of some crazy 1.6x triple springs. I'm not talking about trying to use stock rockers and 5/16ths pushrods.
07-28-2010, 04:52 AM
#135
2800 lb's is mustang weight, I've seen those cars go WAY faster then you'd think, and it's a raceweight thing.
Your typical mustang, is about 2800 lbs, maybe a little less (some are ALOT less) and they're going that fast, with 200 hp less then it takes a normal f body to get there...
07-28-2010, 06:51 AM
#136
...not to sound smart, but is that a joke? It isn't a fair comparison due to cubic inches. The point I was trying to make was on price versus speed and it sounds like we agree there... But even on pump gas the 555cid torque curve would be overwhelming as compared to a smaller cubic inch LSX engine and thus would have more steam to move the heavier vehicle. If you are talking about weight, my father's 9.800 deck Big M block weighed in roughly the same as my 9.260 deck LSX. The BBC will weigh little more than LSX because the parts are larger and heavier. But hell I would say run these motors in any shape or form. Aluminum blocks, etc... the big motor wins every time.
07-28-2010, 09:44 AM
#137
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I don't want this thread go of topic but if you were going to buy a set of these heads why wouldn't build the motor full tilt. It doesn't matter if you are building a Drag Radial, Outlaw 10.5 or a bracket car. Anyone willing to spend $1500 each for a rough un-ported casting should understand the cost involved in making it final.
You can't compare a LS and BB Chevy for prices on shelf type parts. The sales volume is no where the same and their-fore making it not as cost effective on LS stuff.
Now skip over the off the shelf parts like these heads and look at prices. You now have to pay someone to sit a design a port design, make as many changes it takes to get them right, cost of wasted castings for RnD etc... You also have to pay the guy for the time it takes a $500,000 5-Axis CNC to port the final head, take it out to a $200,000 CNC lathe and mill to finish it off. I will tell you Curtis ( RFD ) Cary ( PI ) etc... will not touch it for less then $3000-$4000 to finish them off. Their is a lot of time involved and money that get's invested. All for a LOW VOLUME #'s. Their is the cost. Call Sonny, CFE, Dart and see what the non shelf heads go for. I know, I deal with or have dealt with them all. We do this stuff every day here at our shop for our-selfs.
Now you have to put parts in that bare casting and if you think you could cut cost on the parts your crazy. If you don't plan on revving the thing or putting a .850 or cam in it the heads would be a waste anyway. Also once you get into big lift now you need the parts to handle the spring pressure you have to run. Try running a $400 set of lifters, $200 Push Rods and $750 set of rockers with 400PSI static and 1200PSI open. You can't do a thing if you don't have valve control. I have seen cost effective stuff run on the spintron. Your going to have a big pile of scrape before you ever get anywhere and have to buy parts twice or 3 times until you see that the entry level or middle of the road stuff will not work. At the end of the day it will have cost me less to wait and do it right then to try and save a little here and their.
You can't compare a LS and BB Chevy for prices on shelf type parts. The sales volume is no where the same and their-fore making it not as cost effective on LS stuff.
Now skip over the off the shelf parts like these heads and look at prices. You now have to pay someone to sit a design a port design, make as many changes it takes to get them right, cost of wasted castings for RnD etc... You also have to pay the guy for the time it takes a $500,000 5-Axis CNC to port the final head, take it out to a $200,000 CNC lathe and mill to finish it off. I will tell you Curtis ( RFD ) Cary ( PI ) etc... will not touch it for less then $3000-$4000 to finish them off. Their is a lot of time involved and money that get's invested. All for a LOW VOLUME #'s. Their is the cost. Call Sonny, CFE, Dart and see what the non shelf heads go for. I know, I deal with or have dealt with them all. We do this stuff every day here at our shop for our-selfs.
Now you have to put parts in that bare casting and if you think you could cut cost on the parts your crazy. If you don't plan on revving the thing or putting a .850 or cam in it the heads would be a waste anyway. Also once you get into big lift now you need the parts to handle the spring pressure you have to run. Try running a $400 set of lifters, $200 Push Rods and $750 set of rockers with 400PSI static and 1200PSI open. You can't do a thing if you don't have valve control. I have seen cost effective stuff run on the spintron. Your going to have a big pile of scrape before you ever get anywhere and have to buy parts twice or 3 times until you see that the entry level or middle of the road stuff will not work. At the end of the day it will have cost me less to wait and do it right then to try and save a little here and their.
I'm already planning on putting a BBC together as a backup to my LSX. Just in case. LOL
07-28-2010, 05:45 PM
#138
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...not to sound smart, but is that a joke? It isn't a fair comparison due to cubic inches. The point I was trying to make was on price versus speed and it sounds like we agree there... But even on pump gas the 555cid torque curve would be overwhelming as compared to a smaller cubic inch LSX engine and thus would have more steam to move the heavier vehicle. If you are talking about weight, my father's 9.800 deck Big M block weighed in roughly the same as my 9.260 deck LSX. The BBC will weigh little more than LSX because the parts are larger and heavier. But hell I would say run these motors in any shape or form. Aluminum blocks, etc... the big motor wins every time.
07-28-2010, 06:53 PM
#139
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Anybody & everybody has or can make a BBC fast, But to go fast with a LSX thats making 1000 to 1100 hp N/A.... Now that is something. We should be part of the 1000+ N/A hp club here soon...........
scot
scot
08-09-2010, 08:58 PM
#140
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