Dual or Single beehive?
04-14-2010, 10:49 PM
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Dual or Single beehive? Got these PG LSx dual valve springs and the locks etc...the PG LSx kit....
And i know that springs are for mild to aggressive cams usually...but im boosting right now...want to maintain valve functionality and seating/pressure...
just wondering, I dont have a cam yet...plans for a RM turbo cam in fall as well as custom head job to accomidate.....
was told that running the duals would put a lot of stress on my OE lifters without a cam
others say i should be okay no matter what due to the dual spring just being added protection as a spring within a spring and its all about seat pressure....these are their standard dual which is:
Install Height: 1.800''
Max. Valve Spring Lift: 0.650''
Spring Pressure Closed: 135 lbs. @ 1.800''
Spring Pressure Open: 375 lbs. @ 1.150''
Coil Bind: 1.090''
Retainer Material: Titanium
The diff between a lets say a Comp Cam beehive LS1 spring which is; CORRECT PLEASE IF IM WRONG ON ANY OF THIS....which is what my OE springs are as well have a closed seat press of 130 lbs. @ 1.800 and open seat pressure of 367 lbs. @1.150...and max valve lift on the LS1 spring is only .625"...and with some minor ID and OD changes accordingly...but from what it looks like to me...that the dual springs would be considered a moderate upgrade to stock in form of numbers but higher yeild in strength....so still wondering if they will be that much harder on the lifters...???
I mean, im not real sure how much is too much or too little when speaking about lbs. of seat pressure but looks as if there is only a difference of 5lbs closed and 8lbs open...and the diff i can see is only between the OD and ID as I said and then the coil bind which the the LS1 is 1.100 and the dual PG is 1.090...so you tell me there too...??
someothers have said that the beehive singles rated at approx the same thing would be better and less aggressive on my valvetrain while i await the cam and heads....so any help would be appreciated with this decision...i just dont want to toast the lifters...
and also...i have 5/16 aftermarket pushrods....forgot to put that in...so good to go there...
And i know that springs are for mild to aggressive cams usually...but im boosting right now...want to maintain valve functionality and seating/pressure...
just wondering, I dont have a cam yet...plans for a RM turbo cam in fall as well as custom head job to accomidate.....
was told that running the duals would put a lot of stress on my OE lifters without a cam
others say i should be okay no matter what due to the dual spring just being added protection as a spring within a spring and its all about seat pressure....these are their standard dual which is:
Install Height: 1.800''
Max. Valve Spring Lift: 0.650''
Spring Pressure Closed: 135 lbs. @ 1.800''
Spring Pressure Open: 375 lbs. @ 1.150''
Coil Bind: 1.090''
Retainer Material: Titanium
The diff between a lets say a Comp Cam beehive LS1 spring which is; CORRECT PLEASE IF IM WRONG ON ANY OF THIS....which is what my OE springs are as well have a closed seat press of 130 lbs. @ 1.800 and open seat pressure of 367 lbs. @1.150...and max valve lift on the LS1 spring is only .625"...and with some minor ID and OD changes accordingly...but from what it looks like to me...that the dual springs would be considered a moderate upgrade to stock in form of numbers but higher yeild in strength....so still wondering if they will be that much harder on the lifters...???
I mean, im not real sure how much is too much or too little when speaking about lbs. of seat pressure but looks as if there is only a difference of 5lbs closed and 8lbs open...and the diff i can see is only between the OD and ID as I said and then the coil bind which the the LS1 is 1.100 and the dual PG is 1.090...so you tell me there too...??
someothers have said that the beehive singles rated at approx the same thing would be better and less aggressive on my valvetrain while i await the cam and heads....so any help would be appreciated with this decision...i just dont want to toast the lifters...
and also...i have 5/16 aftermarket pushrods....forgot to put that in...so good to go there...
Last edited by Rossko85; 04-14-2010 at 10:56 PM.
04-14-2010, 11:48 PM
#2
You'll be fine. Spring pressure is lighter with less lift. Your stock cam doesn't have a lot of lift. You won't be compressing the spring as much. Thus you won't be running into the high seat pressures the spring is rated for "open." Your lifters will be fine, you'd be surprised how good the factory lifters are.
04-15-2010, 09:44 PM
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bought it and returned now since ive heard some horrible stories about the PG kits atleast from the local head LSx machine guy here in indy....he said dual spring good but, the PG use really low-rate titanium on locks hints why they are a whole kit for $260 bucks! LOL...i gues they have had testimonials and experiences with those paticular springs not only failing within 15k miles but, the titanium from the locks flakes in the valvetrain and ends up in motor oil.....and that is more than 5 high performance racing valvetrains...not just some guys horror story....
so they use a PAC LS1 beehive spring...not the same as the Comps...these are almost if not identical but, the PAC springs have .650" lift compared to the Comps at .600"....and thes PACs are tested everyday over and over again with the race teams he provides for reving LS3 motors well over 10k rpms on them.....and NO PROBLEMS OR REPLACING....so that works for me....hes building me custom heads with rockers, valves, springs, retainers and locks to work with my LSr Rear mount turbo cam so the heads work with the cam and non DOD lifters and the 5/16" pushrods :-).....so the plan goes....
so they use a PAC LS1 beehive spring...not the same as the Comps...these are almost if not identical but, the PAC springs have .650" lift compared to the Comps at .600"....and thes PACs are tested everyday over and over again with the race teams he provides for reving LS3 motors well over 10k rpms on them.....and NO PROBLEMS OR REPLACING....so that works for me....hes building me custom heads with rockers, valves, springs, retainers and locks to work with my LSr Rear mount turbo cam so the heads work with the cam and non DOD lifters and the 5/16" pushrods :-).....so the plan goes....
04-16-2010, 02:06 PM
#6
bought it and returned now since ive heard some horrible stories about the PG kits atleast from the local head LSx machine guy here in indy....he said dual spring good but, the PG use really low-rate titanium on locks hints why they are a whole kit for $260 bucks! LOL...i gues they have had testimonials and experiences with those paticular springs not only failing within 15k miles but, the titanium from the locks flakes in the valvetrain and ends up in motor oil.....and that is more than 5 high performance racing valvetrains...not just some guys horror story...
Patriot Golds are a very good spring dont let the price scare ya. I;ve witnessed first hand low 9 second cars running them with no issues. I ran them with a TR224 in an Ls1 for three years lots of street and track miles 7K RPM limiter and I hit it often. The LS1 still had its original stock 99 lifters that already had 72K miles of street use on them and when i pulled them out they looked as good as new. Never had a blip of trouble and the springs still look like new fwiw.
LOL.... you people kill me with the praising of the PAC springs and throwing the Comp springs under the bus......
If people only knew the truth.........
If people only knew the truth.........
04-19-2010, 04:48 PM
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Patriot Golds are a very good spring dont let the price scare ya. I;ve witnessed first hand low 9 second cars running them with no issues. I ran them with a TR224 in an Ls1 for three years lots of street and track miles 7K RPM limiter and I hit it often. The LS1 still had its original stock 99 lifters that already had 72K miles of street use on them and when i pulled them out they looked as good as new. Never had a blip of trouble and the springs still look like new fwiw.
Aint that the truth
Patriot Golds are a very good spring dont let the price scare ya. I;ve witnessed first hand low 9 second cars running them with no issues. I ran them with a TR224 in an Ls1 for three years lots of street and track miles 7K RPM limiter and I hit it often. The LS1 still had its original stock 99 lifters that already had 72K miles of street use on them and when i pulled them out they looked as good as new. Never had a blip of trouble and the springs still look like new fwiw.
Aint that the truth
but to him his own! LOL
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04-19-2010, 05:12 PM
#8
Very true. I dont use local shops anymore because of these dilemmas. I found that they seem to only want to sell you what makes them the most money and have all sorts of convenient horror stories to scare you into buying what they recommend. What used to frustrate the hell out of me was asking another shop to quote and spec out a build to compare and they would then say similar stuff about the other brands etc etc. This was before these great message boards where we end users could share our own personal experiences and compare results. I've never looked back as a result.
Initially i too was skeptical of the price of Patriot Golds and Gunnar ( sp? ) the owner posted up here about it. He claimed and proved that his springs were made by the exact same supplier as a Big name brands "gold wire" duals were whi8ch sold at three times the price. He claimed that because Patriot Performance was a wholesale supplier mainly selling to shops etc. that their marketing, branding, and shop, was minimal and deliberate so that the costs of these parts could be kept low enough to resale out at profits for shops etc. Fortunately with these boards we can buy direct and thus also get in on the same savings as there is no jobber or shop price at Patriot. We all pay the same shop or consumer. As a result every single shop I've ever walked into flamed all over them saying all sorts of crap and when you follow the bouncing $$$$ It starts to become pretty clear as to why.
Ok fine so there crap right? Well... For YEARS and I mean a long time there wasnt ONE SINGLE post made with a Patriot Gold valve spring failure. There has been a post or two come up since and I studied the results and in one case the dolt hadnt properly tightened down his rocker arms and everything came loose and then all hell broke loose. In the other case the guy had used the wrong valve seals and the inner spring made contact and it got trashed on all cyls but amazingly enough it still ran great.
Anyways Im not trying to sway you towards them. For instance on this build Im doing now Im running the PAC 1518's as this is what the cam grinder recommends for my set up and these guys are very very reputable so im going to run them.
All Im trying to say is if your willing to spend the time researching your products on various message boards I think you will be informed with more facts than BS and be able to make the purchases that work best for your goals. Then you can decide exactly what you "should" buy instead of just getting sold the things that might work from a shop but probably work best for their pockets instead of your performance
Initially i too was skeptical of the price of Patriot Golds and Gunnar ( sp? ) the owner posted up here about it. He claimed and proved that his springs were made by the exact same supplier as a Big name brands "gold wire" duals were whi8ch sold at three times the price. He claimed that because Patriot Performance was a wholesale supplier mainly selling to shops etc. that their marketing, branding, and shop, was minimal and deliberate so that the costs of these parts could be kept low enough to resale out at profits for shops etc. Fortunately with these boards we can buy direct and thus also get in on the same savings as there is no jobber or shop price at Patriot. We all pay the same shop or consumer. As a result every single shop I've ever walked into flamed all over them saying all sorts of crap and when you follow the bouncing $$$$ It starts to become pretty clear as to why.
Ok fine so there crap right? Well... For YEARS and I mean a long time there wasnt ONE SINGLE post made with a Patriot Gold valve spring failure. There has been a post or two come up since and I studied the results and in one case the dolt hadnt properly tightened down his rocker arms and everything came loose and then all hell broke loose. In the other case the guy had used the wrong valve seals and the inner spring made contact and it got trashed on all cyls but amazingly enough it still ran great.
Anyways Im not trying to sway you towards them. For instance on this build Im doing now Im running the PAC 1518's as this is what the cam grinder recommends for my set up and these guys are very very reputable so im going to run them.
All Im trying to say is if your willing to spend the time researching your products on various message boards I think you will be informed with more facts than BS and be able to make the purchases that work best for your goals. Then you can decide exactly what you "should" buy instead of just getting sold the things that might work from a shop but probably work best for their pockets instead of your performance
04-21-2010, 09:40 PM
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Very true. I dont use local shops anymore because of these dilemmas. I found that they seem to only want to sell you what makes them the most money and have all sorts of convenient horror stories to scare you into buying what they recommend. What used to frustrate the hell out of me was asking another shop to quote and spec out a build to compare and they would then say similar stuff about the other brands etc etc. This was before these great message boards where we end users could share our own personal experiences and compare results. I've never looked back as a result.
Initially i too was skeptical of the price of Patriot Golds and Gunnar ( sp? ) the owner posted up here about it. He claimed and proved that his springs were made by the exact same supplier as a Big name brands "gold wire" duals were whi8ch sold at three times the price. He claimed that because Patriot Performance was a wholesale supplier mainly selling to shops etc. that their marketing, branding, and shop, was minimal and deliberate so that the costs of these parts could be kept low enough to resale out at profits for shops etc. Fortunately with these boards we can buy direct and thus also get in on the same savings as there is no jobber or shop price at Patriot. We all pay the same shop or consumer. As a result every single shop I've ever walked into flamed all over them saying all sorts of crap and when you follow the bouncing $$$$ It starts to become pretty clear as to why.
Ok fine so there crap right? Well... For YEARS and I mean a long time there wasnt ONE SINGLE post made with a Patriot Gold valve spring failure. There has been a post or two come up since and I studied the results and in one case the dolt hadnt properly tightened down his rocker arms and everything came loose and then all hell broke loose. In the other case the guy had used the wrong valve seals and the inner spring made contact and it got trashed on all cyls but amazingly enough it still ran great.
Anyways Im not trying to sway you towards them. For instance on this build Im doing now Im running the PAC 1518's as this is what the cam grinder recommends for my set up and these guys are very very reputable so im going to run them.
All Im trying to say is if your willing to spend the time researching your products on various message boards I think you will be informed with more facts than BS and be able to make the purchases that work best for your goals. Then you can decide exactly what you "should" buy instead of just getting sold the things that might work from a shop but probably work best for their pockets instead of your performance
Initially i too was skeptical of the price of Patriot Golds and Gunnar ( sp? ) the owner posted up here about it. He claimed and proved that his springs were made by the exact same supplier as a Big name brands "gold wire" duals were whi8ch sold at three times the price. He claimed that because Patriot Performance was a wholesale supplier mainly selling to shops etc. that their marketing, branding, and shop, was minimal and deliberate so that the costs of these parts could be kept low enough to resale out at profits for shops etc. Fortunately with these boards we can buy direct and thus also get in on the same savings as there is no jobber or shop price at Patriot. We all pay the same shop or consumer. As a result every single shop I've ever walked into flamed all over them saying all sorts of crap and when you follow the bouncing $$$$ It starts to become pretty clear as to why.
Ok fine so there crap right? Well... For YEARS and I mean a long time there wasnt ONE SINGLE post made with a Patriot Gold valve spring failure. There has been a post or two come up since and I studied the results and in one case the dolt hadnt properly tightened down his rocker arms and everything came loose and then all hell broke loose. In the other case the guy had used the wrong valve seals and the inner spring made contact and it got trashed on all cyls but amazingly enough it still ran great.
Anyways Im not trying to sway you towards them. For instance on this build Im doing now Im running the PAC 1518's as this is what the cam grinder recommends for my set up and these guys are very very reputable so im going to run them.
All Im trying to say is if your willing to spend the time researching your products on various message boards I think you will be informed with more facts than BS and be able to make the purchases that work best for your goals. Then you can decide exactly what you "should" buy instead of just getting sold the things that might work from a shop but probably work best for their pockets instead of your performance
Well played! LOL...Im just worried about my DOD lifters being over-stressed with the double spring set up along with the 7.4's I have in combo....I have the DOD shut off in the tune but, not completely converted just YET...planning on it in Fall.....along with the cam...going to do a conversion from a 1 bolt to 3 and the LS6 oil pump etc etc...pretty standard across the board for LSx NON DOD swaps...going to get into the LS7 lifters...Im pretty convinced that they are the EXACT SAME SPECKS as the old LS1 LSx lifters but, they have a larger cup if I have read properly which helps them stay loaded at the higher RPMs...IF I READ CORRECTLY
Thanks again!!
04-22-2010, 12:23 PM
#10
And this my friend is exactly what the game is all about! Thank you for that!!
Well played! LOL...Im just worried about my DOD lifters being over-stressed with the double spring set up along with the 7.4's I have in combo....I have the DOD shut off in the tune but, not completely converted just YET...planning on it in Fall.....along with the cam...going to do a conversion from a 1 bolt to 3 and the LS6 oil pump etc etc...pretty standard across the board for LSx NON DOD swaps...going to get into the LS7 lifters...Im pretty convinced that they are the EXACT SAME SPECKS as the old LS1 LSx lifters but, they have a larger cup if I have read properly which helps them stay loaded at the higher RPMs...IF I READ CORRECTLY
Thanks again!!
Well played! LOL...Im just worried about my DOD lifters being over-stressed with the double spring set up along with the 7.4's I have in combo....I have the DOD shut off in the tune but, not completely converted just YET...planning on it in Fall.....along with the cam...going to do a conversion from a 1 bolt to 3 and the LS6 oil pump etc etc...pretty standard across the board for LSx NON DOD swaps...going to get into the LS7 lifters...Im pretty convinced that they are the EXACT SAME SPECKS as the old LS1 LSx lifters but, they have a larger cup if I have read properly which helps them stay loaded at the higher RPMs...IF I READ CORRECTLY
Thanks again!!
Now regarding the cam conversion you speak of? Well Im mixed on that at this point. DOD is one thing sure ditch that. But VVT on the other hand hosts a lot of performance benefits that you can utilize to your advantage. It still requires you to swap out the DOD lifters but you can keep the Phaser and run a VVT cam and the idea is that you lose no low end power by going to a big cam. You can advance the snot out of the cam so your bottom end is strong and then with the tune adjust the cam retard as your RPM climbs to make the most power possible from that given RPM.
I just bought an EPS custom grind VVT cam for exactly this but I have been so damn busy with work I havent had a single moment to wrench on it but Im getting very close to a full scale attack on it. Once Im done I will be posting results and my final opinions on VVT for high performance street/strip use. I can tell you this much... Those who run it seem to love it.
