Help, water in the oil of my new RHS 435ci build
05-31-2015, 08:15 PM
#21
Agreed.
Its also virtually impossible to look around the head's to block interface with the engine in the car because its literally buried in the back of the car, so not a lot to be gained by pressure testing the cooling system whilst the engines in the car.
Cheers,
Mark.
05-31-2015, 11:02 PM
#23
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Hi NB,
We have an oil heating blanket on the dry sump tank, and I recently ordered a New Zealand made water heating circulator, as I believe that bringing the block up to temperature before you start a race engine is a good thing, so yes I agree with you, all good practice's, and in particular leaving the pressure cap backed off while circulating the water, also seems like a logical thing to do.
Steve@RED, told me the that the LS blocks grow as much as .012" which equals a lot more squash on the gasket, so using that sort of growth before you start the engine has to be a good thing.
Camster, I would and will be extremely surprised if the pistons are hitting the head surface, we run .036" squish, with a flat top piston, but thanks for your suggestion we will definitely check this if we do decide to pull the head's off, but first we will run some Moroso Ceramic engine sealer through the engine, as per Steve@RED suggestion.
We have an oil heating blanket on the dry sump tank, and I recently ordered a New Zealand made water heating circulator, as I believe that bringing the block up to temperature before you start a race engine is a good thing, so yes I agree with you, all good practice's, and in particular leaving the pressure cap backed off while circulating the water, also seems like a logical thing to do.
Steve@RED, told me the that the LS blocks grow as much as .012" which equals a lot more squash on the gasket, so using that sort of growth before you start the engine has to be a good thing.
Camster, I would and will be extremely surprised if the pistons are hitting the head surface, we run .036" squish, with a flat top piston, but thanks for your suggestion we will definitely check this if we do decide to pull the head's off, but first we will run some Moroso Ceramic engine sealer through the engine, as per Steve@RED suggestion.
Piston pin runs front to rear living the piston to rock on the pin axis, the inner and outer side of the piston will see an extreme excursion at high rpms, the wider the piston the further up it's reach which is why the 4.060 bore may get away with using a .040 compress gasket.
Then higher the rpms the more tolerance needed, same for the wider bores.
The exhaust stroke comes with much less piston load allowing the furthest piston reach and the must side to side free piston rock.
06-01-2015, 12:08 AM
#24
Edited typographical error thanks for pointing it out.
Piston pin runs front to rear living the piston to rock on the pin axis, the inner and outer side of the piston will see an extreme excursion at high rpms, the wider the piston the further up it's reach which is why the 4.060 bore may get away with using a .040 compress gasket.
Then higher the rpms the more tolerance needed, same for the wider bores.
The exhaust stroke comes with much less piston load allowing the furthest piston reach and the must side to side free piston rock.
Piston pin runs front to rear living the piston to rock on the pin axis, the inner and outer side of the piston will see an extreme excursion at high rpms, the wider the piston the further up it's reach which is why the 4.060 bore may get away with using a .040 compress gasket.
Then higher the rpms the more tolerance needed, same for the wider bores.
The exhaust stroke comes with much less piston load allowing the furthest piston reach and the must side to side free piston rock.
The maximum rpm the engine has seen is 7,200 RPM so not that high compared with the 8,500 RPM 400ci engine we are in the process of building, but for sure we will check it our with a bore scope if we decide not to remove the engine.
06-01-2015, 08:14 AM
#25
To start with need to find where its leaking, pressure tester, cranking compression, cylinder leak down, you can check with a gas analyzer and see if you're getting hydrocarbon in the cooling system should it be compression leak, head gasket/head, also is checking fluid that changes color with hydrocarbon. Need some information before you ring someones neck or you look like an ignorant DB.
One example: an iron 6.0 with copper head gaskets/O ring, couldn't get it to stop leaking water just at idle, small drip from the head gasket. Put in GM sealant tablets, no problem since.
Second example: had a set of aftermarket aluminum LS heads, kept getting coolant in the exhaust, heads pressure tested fine, by two shops. Sent the heads to be 'impregnated' . Basically they put the bare casting in a vacuum chamber and coated it with a glue like material that when cured fills tiny cracks and porosities. After the heads came back looked clean as new, Heads reinstalled never been a problem since.
Fraser
One example: an iron 6.0 with copper head gaskets/O ring, couldn't get it to stop leaking water just at idle, small drip from the head gasket. Put in GM sealant tablets, no problem since.
Second example: had a set of aftermarket aluminum LS heads, kept getting coolant in the exhaust, heads pressure tested fine, by two shops. Sent the heads to be 'impregnated' . Basically they put the bare casting in a vacuum chamber and coated it with a glue like material that when cured fills tiny cracks and porosities. After the heads came back looked clean as new, Heads reinstalled never been a problem since.
Fraser
06-01-2015, 03:17 PM
#26
To start with need to find where its leaking, pressure tester, cranking compression, cylinder leak down, you can check with a gas analyzer and see if you're getting hydrocarbon in the cooling system should it be compression leak, head gasket/head, also is checking fluid that changes color with hydrocarbon. Need some information before you ring someones neck or you look like an ignorant DB.
One example: an iron 6.0 with copper head gaskets/O ring, couldn't get it to stop leaking water just at idle, small drip from the head gasket. Put in GM sealant tablets, no problem since.
Second example: had a set of aftermarket aluminum LS heads, kept getting coolant in the exhaust, heads pressure tested fine, by two shops. Sent the heads to be 'impregnated' . Basically they put the bare casting in a vacuum chamber and coated it with a glue like material that when cured fills tiny cracks and porosities. After the heads came back looked clean as new, Heads reinstalled never been a problem since.
Fraser
One example: an iron 6.0 with copper head gaskets/O ring, couldn't get it to stop leaking water just at idle, small drip from the head gasket. Put in GM sealant tablets, no problem since.
Second example: had a set of aftermarket aluminum LS heads, kept getting coolant in the exhaust, heads pressure tested fine, by two shops. Sent the heads to be 'impregnated' . Basically they put the bare casting in a vacuum chamber and coated it with a glue like material that when cured fills tiny cracks and porosities. After the heads came back looked clean as new, Heads reinstalled never been a problem since.
Fraser
All good advice and rest assured we will not be knee jerking this issue at all, the very first thing we are going to do is follow Steve@RED advice and re-torque the cylinder head's cold, by backing of the centre bolt, and re-torquing it then doing the same to the rest of the bolts in the time honored, circular pattern.
We will then pressure check the cooling system, and even if it holds perfectly we will pour in 2 bottles of Moroso Ceramic engine sealer, because the system holds a lot of water.
If none of the above works we remove the engine and strip it down.
Cheers,
Mark.
06-01-2015, 05:14 PM
#28
At the present time I am trying to avoid taking the engine out of the car, if we are able to stop the water getting into the oil we will worry about what caused it when the engine comes out and we fit our new 400ci short stroke, big bore RED block engine.
I believe the problem is that we did not re-torque the cylinder heads, we will do that tomorrow, plus drain the oil etc. If that fixes the issue then logically we will know for sure what caused the problem in the first place.
Cheers,
Mark.
06-01-2015, 08:43 PM
#29
On The Tree
I've had good luck with the Moroso ceramic sealer and the GM tablets also. Hope you resolve the issue without pulling the motor. I really like the car, someday I hope to do something similar.
06-01-2015, 10:34 PM
#31
Hi Fraser,
At the present time I am trying to avoid taking the engine out of the car, if we are able to stop the water getting into the oil we will worry about what caused it when the engine comes out and we fit our new 400ci short stroke, big bore RED block engine.
I believe the problem is that we did not re-torque the cylinder heads, we will do that tomorrow, plus drain the oil etc. If that fixes the issue then logically we will know for sure what caused the problem in the first place.
Cheers,
Mark.
At the present time I am trying to avoid taking the engine out of the car, if we are able to stop the water getting into the oil we will worry about what caused it when the engine comes out and we fit our new 400ci short stroke, big bore RED block engine.
I believe the problem is that we did not re-torque the cylinder heads, we will do that tomorrow, plus drain the oil etc. If that fixes the issue then logically we will know for sure what caused the problem in the first place.
Cheers,
Mark.
Far as head studs, never had to re-torque before. Last torque step i'd take the nuts see if I could move them, get about 10lbs over ARP's spec till the tq wrench couldn't move anymore, thats torqued.
06-01-2015, 11:13 PM
#32
Never said to remove the engine. Any pressure checks can be done in frame.
Far as head studs, never had to re-torque before. Last torque step i'd take the nuts see if I could move them, get about 10lbs over ARP's spec till the tq wrench couldn't move anymore, thats torqued.
Far as head studs, never had to re-torque before. Last torque step i'd take the nuts see if I could move them, get about 10lbs over ARP's spec till the tq wrench couldn't move anymore, thats torqued.
Thanks Fraser, I appreciate you interest, however, with due respect, Steve Demirjian of Race Engine Development [RED] is telling me that .040" Cometic Caskets must be re-torqued after the first heat cycle.
As I am using the same .040" Cometic Gasket on Steve's Darton MID sleeved block, I am definitely going to follow his advice first and foremost.
Cheers,
Mark.
06-03-2015, 03:44 AM
#34
Today we started by removing both rocker cover's, the inlet manifold, and the valley plate before pressure testing the cooling system at 25psi, and then very carefully inspecting the valley area, cam follower chambers, etc, for any signs of the ingress of water, and could find absolutely no evidence of leakage, and further, after some 30 minutes we only lost half PSI [24.5] of cooling system pressure.
After observing the heavy build of emulsified engine oil that you can see on the inside of the picture below, and with zero evidence of water ingress, we decided to remove the engine for a closer inspection.
06-03-2015, 10:09 AM
#35
Hi GS and all the other posters interested in this thread.
Today we started by removing both rocker cover's, the inlet manifold, and the valley plate before pressure testing the cooling system at 25psi, and then very carefully inspecting the valley area, cam follower chambers, etc, for any signs of the ingress of water, and could find absolutely no evidence of leakage, and further, after some 30 minutes we only lost half PSI [24.5] of cooling system pressure.
After observing the heavy build of emulsified engine oil that you can see on the inside of the picture below, and with zero evidence of water ingress, we decided to remove the engine for a closer inspection.
Today we started by removing both rocker cover's, the inlet manifold, and the valley plate before pressure testing the cooling system at 25psi, and then very carefully inspecting the valley area, cam follower chambers, etc, for any signs of the ingress of water, and could find absolutely no evidence of leakage, and further, after some 30 minutes we only lost half PSI [24.5] of cooling system pressure.
After observing the heavy build of emulsified engine oil that you can see on the inside of the picture below, and with zero evidence of water ingress, we decided to remove the engine for a closer inspection.
06-03-2015, 10:30 AM
#36
Custom Manifold Whilst the engine is out, we will replace the standard Ls7 manifold with this custom fabrication piece from Precision Fabrication's, beautiful piece and along with the FAST 92mm throttle should help carry the Horsepower over 7,000 RPM with the cam Kip spec'd for this engine, as with the standard manifold and 90mm throttle body power drops off sharply over 7,000 RPM.
06-03-2015, 11:27 AM
#37
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Kiwi I think of this song everytime you post: Welcome to the Land Down Under....LOL!!!
That intake will help carry it past 7000 or 6800 rpm. Hope that cooling issue is a simple fix.
That intake will help carry it past 7000 or 6800 rpm. Hope that cooling issue is a simple fix.
06-04-2015, 03:33 AM
#38
We have removed the engine [see picture below] and completely stripped it down ready for a 80ēC hot water, 50psi pressure, block test tomorrow.
We have some idea of where the problem lies but until we know for sure I wont comment further.
06-04-2015, 08:36 AM
#39
Whilst the engine is out, we will replace the standard Ls7 manifold with this custom fabrication piece from Precision Fabrication's, beautiful piece and along with the FAST 92mm throttle should help carry the Horsepower over 7,000 RPM with the cam Kip spec'd for this engine, as with the standard manifold and 90mm throttle body power drops off sharply over 7,000 RPM.
Original stock standard Ls7 Inlet manifold with FAST cable operated 90mm throttle body.
If you are wondering what that cylinder and push rod is mounted behind the throttle body its the pneumatic blipper for the down change MOTEC ECU function.
Cheers,
Mark.
Last edited by KiwiKid; 06-04-2015 at 08:45 AM.
06-05-2015, 04:32 PM
#40
Just to put your mind at rest, after close inspection I can report that the pistons have not touched the cylinder head surface. We are using a .040" Cometic head-gasket and we run .036 squish gap to the head surface, which obviously means the pistons are out of the bore by.004"
More when we complete the hot block pressure test hopefully today.
Cheers,
Mark.