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Tech@WS6store, the way I see it, the Cat heads are a good all the way around head and More importantly if you run a factory style aftermarket intake such as MSD or a FAST. There still good in a carb style race app also. I'm not a hater, but I do prefer rectangular heads myself as I know they Want Lift & RPM all of which I do like as I like solid rollers. For cams under .700 lift I'd say it gets no better than a good aftermarket cathedral head.
BTW R. Coleman is a former comp. Eliminator Champion so he has the best resources. Cam used would be in the upper 250-260's @.050 with some nice compression 12+ and it's a drag engine setup(No hater). Funny thing is John B did around the same amount with a solid roller with a .256 @ .050 duration to be exact (Although Ls7 heads). Again it's all in the Details of each combination. 1Sickeng did fairly well with a Stock Ls3 with heads and cam as well as the the young man with the TFS headed 416 again it's all in the details of what you want and your budget. If you know like I know you just gear the car a little differently for a Ls3 head with a *Good cam* vs a Aftermaket TFS or AFR style cathedral head as they make generally more TQ in the lower bands of the RPM range. Easy fix for the TQ lost vs a cathedral style head. Place the factory heads where they need or want to be in the RPM range simple.
Very old mag I have. Coleman's old 402 motor that ran 9.41 with a FAST intake. I would have thought a 8 second pass with the 427 with 699rwhp. Thinking a bigger tire is needed for 8 seconds.
Very old mag I have. Coleman's old 402 motor that ran 9.41 with a FAST intake. I would have thought a 8 second pass with the 427 with 699rwhp. Thinking a bigger tire is needed for 8 seconds.
The 427ci setup with TFS cathedral 245s have been 8.63 @ 155 mph so far with a Fast intake and a hydraulic roller naturally aspirated. He just had to get the bugs worked out on the 427ci setup to get that 8 second slip.
The way the tfa heads flow they dont really take off til mid lift and go on, even over ported stock castings. Theyll lose no bottom end or mid range vs a stock casting. Those tests proved that. designing a cam for every set of heads or every iteration is ok but OP wants the RonCo Electric Food Dehydrator style build. Set it and forget it. I dont think a solid roller would be that for him nor any of these other "race only/racecar" builds.
Ill stand behind the trick flow in this setup. I prefer them in most builds. A set of stockers or ported stockers are nice yes, but lack alot in design that just cannot be put into them. Im talking purely cathedral and rec port.
The way the tfa heads flow they dont really take off til mid lift and go on, even over ported stock castings. Theyll lose no bottom end or mid range vs a stock casting. Those tests proved that. designing a cam for every set of heads or every iteration is ok but OP wants the RonCo Electric Food Dehydrator style build. Set it and forget it. I dont think a solid roller would be that for him nor any of these other "race only/racecar" builds.
Ill stand behind the trick flow in this setup. I prefer them in most builds. A set of stockers or ported stockers are nice yes, but lack alot in design that just cannot be put into them. Im talking purely cathedral and rec port.
I agree with almost everything you posted here except LLSR not being set it and forget it. If you set lash with pushrods length and pedestal shims, there is nothing to come out of adjustment. I've DD mine for well over a year now.
So for a dd what is the reason to go to a solid roller vs a hyd roller? It does take alot more attention to detail. You cannot just bolt them on and go like a hyd roller setup. Sometimes depending on the lobe, youll need a heavier and more expensive spring. Most people never even shim to .050 for their reg springs let alone take the time for all the rest of it.
I havent seen a solid roller dd setup go 50k or 100k. Im not saying it isnt possible or isnt being done. Im saying ive literally not seen one. Im not saying they are any less dependable or fail before then or get swapped out. Ive only done them for either very very serious builds, race only, or an old school big block chevy or ford build.
Most people dont want to adjust and shim and check and adjust.
Solid rollers used to be $$$ solely because of the lifters. The new morels changed thag with their $350 set. Im sure there are others like crower etc, but imo morels broke the market offerings open in that point for the ls.
So for a dd what is the reason to go to a solid roller vs a hyd roller? It does take alot more attention to detail. You cannot just bolt them on and go like a hyd roller setup. Sometimes depending on the lobe, youll need a heavier and more expensive spring. Most people never even shim to .050 for their reg springs let alone take the time for all the rest of it.
I havent seen a solid roller dd setup go 50k or 100k. Im not saying it isnt possible or isnt being done. Im saying ive literally not seen one. Im not saying they are any less dependable or fail before then or get swapped out. Ive only done them for either very very serious builds, race only, or an old school big block chevy or ford build.
Most people dont want to adjust and shim and check and adjust.
Solid rollers used to be $$$ solely because of the lifters. The new morels changed thag with their $350 set. Im sure there are others like crower etc, but imo morels broke the market offerings open in that point for the ls.
For me the reason was power and throttle response. There is no comparing my car before and after when I did the LLSR. I didn't put that much more time or attention to it than I did my hydraulic set up. Took me several days to get pushrods lengths measured for all 16 valves, double and triple checked, and all at the same preload. I ordered four different lengths.
When I did the solid setup it was basically the same process. So to me it didn't feel any more complicated or PITA vs the hydraulic. Now if you're gonna compare to measuring 1, maybe 2 cylinders and running with it, great. I'm too **** retentive I guess.
Regarding 50k to 100k performance, I don't know how long they've been available. I know Kip runs them in his personal vehicle and last I heard had cleared 30k.
But let's say I end up changing springs in another year or so... that's not unusual for lots of hydraulic setups either. Most aftermarket cams are harder on the valve train. But the cam, lifters, and pushrods will still be fine. Swap valve springs and go.
I just don't see how that's a solid vs hydraulic issue
Most hyd builds never change springs unless they have an issue.
The steps you went through likely 90% never do on a hyd setup. Most dont even measure.
Ive driven both solid roller and hys roller, and I've never seen a change in throttle response. That isnt a measurable change though and is more a personal qualitative change. Sometimes its just psychological. Just like tb spacers to those that dont know. Not saying you didnt gain, just saying you cannot measure that.
Most hyd builds never change springs unless they have an issue.
The steps you went through likely 90% never do on a hyd setup. Most dont even measure.
Ive driven both solid roller and hys roller, and I've never seen a change in throttle response. That isnt a measurable change though and is more a personal qualitative change. Sometimes its just psychological. Just like tb spacers to those that dont know. Not saying you didnt gain, just saying you cannot measure that.
It was definitely a real gain. Hydraulic setup was 496/437 through stock rear and gearing. Only change in the engine was the solid conversion. Put down 510/438 through a nine inch AND 4.11 gears. 519 after intake change.
When I went from hydraulic to solid, it was the first time the car scared me. It wasn't close to a slightly perceptible change.
I didn't mean to hijack the thread. So I'll just drop it after this. But the LLSR was one of the best mods I did. Hands down.
Most hyd builds never change springs unless they have an issue.
The steps you went through likely 90% never do on a hyd setup. Most dont even measure.
Ive driven both solid roller and hys roller, and I've never seen a change in throttle response. That isnt a measurable change though and is more a personal qualitative change. Sometimes its just psychological. Just like tb spacers to those that dont know. Not saying you didnt gain, just saying you cannot measure that.
Have you driven a "Low Lash" Solid Roller as pioneered by Cam Motion?
This is not your "Fathers Solid Roller" as the lash cold is .004-.006"
and hot .008-.010" this is much less then half of what "old school"
solid rollers use. As these are relatively new longer mileage reports
are not available for 50 or even 100K miles yet and the OP likely
does not want to be on the leading edge of tech perhaps, but I would
expect spring longevity to be similar given the same lobe profiles
and time spent above 6500 RPM. If you are not familiar I would
suggest checking out DarthV8rs,SpeedTiggers, & Thunderstrucks
very detailed threads regarding LLSR experiences on the street.
By the way I think the TFS LS3 Heads would be an excellent choice
for the OPs 416" if he is going rectangle, HR or LLSR.
This is slightly off topic, but since we keep talking square port vs cathedral... let me relay a story.
Guy here in Pensacola just made 700rwhp on Dave Steck's dyno with a 454 LS7 in his C6Z06. TFS 265s done by Mamo with a 264/276 112 Comp Solid Roller ~.014" lash (so what 256/268 hyd equivalent), Mamo YT SR Rockers, and Mamo'd MSD Intake and 2" Headers. It was on E60 and 13:1 CR. Hit 195 in the Texas Mile and 168 in the half mile.
He then took it to Huck's over in Foley and laid down over 680rwhp on a dynojet. 682/585 I believe.
But basically, if you want to make huge power, and you have the bore, the LS7 heads are still king. So any of the LS3 heads that are using LS7 type architecture, like TFS or MAST, would be the way to go. However, the MSD intake is a step above the FAST. At least on the LS7 platform.
In fact, it now has me rethinking my Procharger idea... a 440 Darton sleeved 5.3 (4.185x4) with a Mamo LS7 topend setup with an LLR could push 630-650 on 93 in my car...
Well that 454 is around 770HP. With a plastic intake. Lol.
Well its a 427ci here on board making 640 horse with TFS 255s out the box at 12.1 compression. I have the thread saved in my memo.....
Also its a 416ci with LME cnc ported LS3 heads in a article called supersize me. Motor barely made 620 horse and the torque looks like a hill on the dyno graph.
I think 620 at the rear wheels feels like a monster. Esp NA.
The ls7 head is a different monster and MSD doesnt make an ls3 intake. For wha the msd would offer, youd just swap to the short runner on the FAST.
I think there are a few 416s making 600 or near it on cnc stock castings that ive seen around. The tfs are better than that. Even out of the box.
I wonder if Tony cried a little inside working on a trick flow head lol...i keed i keed.
Those graphs are so hard to see but you can tell it was made for peaky high rpm power. What more should you expect from the ls7 head though Its what they do.
05-07-2017, 11:29 AM
