What N/A combo fits this goal?
08-25-2017, 05:01 PM
#1
What N/A combo fits this goal? I'm trying to mimic the all-around performance of the '18 ZL1 1LE in a N/A F-body. Daily driver friendly but will see limited autox and HPDE, no formal drag racing. Power band needs to be low 3000's (for hard acceleration out of slow corners) to 6200-6400ish.
Looking at the 1LE curb weight vs RWHP, and mapping it to my vehicle weight (after reasonable weight reduction), it looks like I'd need to have a dyno similar to the link below. Matching the ratio below ~4500RPM seems to be the challenge, as well as matching the torque multiplication without using different gearing.
Gearing aside, I have a stock displacement LS3; is there any way I can get close to this type of wide power curve, possibly with an LLSR? If yes, what parts would you choose? If not, what's the smallest CI combo that you think would reach this goal?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3a2oeh9u2p...LB-HP.JPG?dl=0
Looking at the 1LE curb weight vs RWHP, and mapping it to my vehicle weight (after reasonable weight reduction), it looks like I'd need to have a dyno similar to the link below. Matching the ratio below ~4500RPM seems to be the challenge, as well as matching the torque multiplication without using different gearing.
Gearing aside, I have a stock displacement LS3; is there any way I can get close to this type of wide power curve, possibly with an LLSR? If yes, what parts would you choose? If not, what's the smallest CI combo that you think would reach this goal?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3a2oeh9u2p...LB-HP.JPG?dl=0
08-25-2017, 05:47 PM
#3
TECH Senior Member
All the LS3 needs is a good cam and exhaust system. Better heads if going much over 500HP.
08-25-2017, 06:35 PM
#4
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...hp-484wtq.html
I couldn't see a clear graph of the RPM's in the posted pictures, but I don't need the ultra high RPM's of the LLSR, could it be done on a hydraulic? General consensus for open track duty is to keep valve lift <.600'ish, not sure how that factors in. Outside of checking the lash, what other long term maintenance changes are there over hydraulic? Reliability needs to trump the last Nth degree of power.
I'm pretty sure he also has a better exhaust than me, and it's tough as hell to fit true duals over the f-body axle. Sure, you can use a UMI/BMR/etc bent upper brace, but that can cause problems with high lateral G loads on a track.
08-25-2017, 06:40 PM
#5
Cam around 226*/236* with a 111* + 4* LSA. Lift at .630" lift or slightly less.
It's what I'd do.....that having been said, I'd call Cam Motion and have them spec a cam with these goals in mind.
Best of luck!
KW
08-25-2017, 06:40 PM
#6
I've not been able to find any stock displacement LS3 longblocks with hydraulic lifters making at least 420RWTQ between 3000RPM and 5500RPM, and still reaching almost 500RWHP by 6000RPM and carrying it to 6400RPM+. Happen to have any links?
08-25-2017, 06:49 PM
#7
Lift has very little if anything to do with sustained RPM stability/durability.
Comp's marine lobes are some of their highest lift hydraulic profiles - just with very generous ramp rates for sustained constant high rpm usage.
You're not going to get the torque curve down low of the supercharged LT4. Just won't happen.
A 416" stroker with a small cam would be the closest at mimicking a supercharged engine and giving you what you're looking for.
I have a 402 with a small cam making 470/451 which is nearly the same as your goal and that's with exhaust manifolds, stock ls3 heads and stock ls3 intake. It is begging for more airflow upstairs.
Comp's marine lobes are some of their highest lift hydraulic profiles - just with very generous ramp rates for sustained constant high rpm usage.
You're not going to get the torque curve down low of the supercharged LT4. Just won't happen.
A 416" stroker with a small cam would be the closest at mimicking a supercharged engine and giving you what you're looking for.
I have a 402 with a small cam making 470/451 which is nearly the same as your goal and that's with exhaust manifolds, stock ls3 heads and stock ls3 intake. It is begging for more airflow upstairs.
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08-25-2017, 07:01 PM
#9
Saying you can't go over .600 lift for road racing and have your valve springs live is just as bogus as what my quote says hah
Both high lift and low lift cams can destroy valvesprings and float the valves. A .700 lift cam can be gentler than a .450 lift cam. The majority of Comp's high lift hydraulic profiles are gentler than the old .600 lift stuff they were putting out 10 years ago. If anything because the lift is higher they probably paid extra attention to valve control when designing them.
As usual - you're correct in saying to just contact your cam supplier when you're ready to order and they'll steer you right.
08-25-2017, 07:12 PM
#10
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4" Stroke will be necessary for 420+ lb' @ 3400 RPM NA IMHO.
408-416" with MMS 235s, AFR 230s, TFS235s, MAST 235 Cathedrals,
Ported FAST 102, Cam Motion HR something like 239/243, 114+3,
.680"/.660", should peak torque ~4800, hp @ 6200-6400 carry to
~6800. LLSR really shines above 7000 RPM with shorter
Intake runners.
408-416" with MMS 235s, AFR 230s, TFS235s, MAST 235 Cathedrals,
Ported FAST 102, Cam Motion HR something like 239/243, 114+3,
.680"/.660", should peak torque ~4800, hp @ 6200-6400 carry to
~6800. LLSR really shines above 7000 RPM with shorter
Intake runners.
Last edited by NAVYBLUE210; 08-25-2017 at 07:28 PM.
08-25-2017, 08:59 PM
#11
4" Stroke will be necessary for 420+ lb' @ 3400 RPM NA IMHO.
408-416" with MMS 235s, AFR 230s, TFS235s, MAST 235 Cathedrals,
Ported FAST 102, Cam Motion HR something like 239/243, 114+3,
.680"/.660", should peak torque ~4800, hp @ 6200-6400 carry to
~6800. LLSR really shines above 7000 RPM with shorter
Intake runners.
408-416" with MMS 235s, AFR 230s, TFS235s, MAST 235 Cathedrals,
Ported FAST 102, Cam Motion HR something like 239/243, 114+3,
.680"/.660", should peak torque ~4800, hp @ 6200-6400 carry to
~6800. LLSR really shines above 7000 RPM with shorter
Intake runners.
08-25-2017, 09:36 PM
#12
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The smallest LS3 ~255 CC flows more then needed and the FAST Cathedral Intake
Runners are a little longer then LS3 runners. .620"/.600" would probably suffice
For lift as well. Possible but perhaps more challenging with Premium LS3
Heads, +8* exhaust split is plenty up to 6500 RPM, something like 230/238
112+3.
Runners are a little longer then LS3 runners. .620"/.600" would probably suffice
For lift as well. Possible but perhaps more challenging with Premium LS3
Heads, +8* exhaust split is plenty up to 6500 RPM, something like 230/238
112+3.
08-25-2017, 09:57 PM
#13
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Op your goals are quite easy obtainable the ls3 has excellent power potential.
The goal you are after is like there's many ways to skin a cat so yeah you are going to be bombarded my suggestion is to find out who's done it so you can have a workable solution and not fall short of your goal.
LLSR is my suggestion Trick flow 255 cc ls3 heads 12 to 1 so chambers @ 56cc on E85.
Cam will be spec by Patrick G he has an archive of proprietary road racers own lobes available to his prescription very easy on the valve train.
Please don't fall for cheap valve train parts and don't skimp on lifters and rockers and you'll never have to worry about valve lash.
Another suggestion after you have completed the cam questionnaire (take as much time as you need) don't change anything on that initial grind suggestion, Patrick will be more than trilled to help you but will be to your regret please trust me on this.
His cams will always seem to be wanting or small BUT will do what you asked and more is why he is the go to guy.
The goal you are after is like there's many ways to skin a cat so yeah you are going to be bombarded my suggestion is to find out who's done it so you can have a workable solution and not fall short of your goal.
LLSR is my suggestion Trick flow 255 cc ls3 heads 12 to 1 so chambers @ 56cc on E85.
Cam will be spec by Patrick G he has an archive of proprietary road racers own lobes available to his prescription very easy on the valve train.
Please don't fall for cheap valve train parts and don't skimp on lifters and rockers and you'll never have to worry about valve lash.
Another suggestion after you have completed the cam questionnaire (take as much time as you need) don't change anything on that initial grind suggestion, Patrick will be more than trilled to help you but will be to your regret please trust me on this.
His cams will always seem to be wanting or small BUT will do what you asked and more is why he is the go to guy.
08-25-2017, 10:16 PM
#14
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Look at Mild 416" with MMS 223 Sportsmen heads in Dyno Results
Section. 3500-6500 exceeds torque & HP Everywhere compared to
Your target spec. LOL
Section. 3500-6500 exceeds torque & HP Everywhere compared to
Your target spec. LOL
08-25-2017, 10:42 PM
#15
Yeah, I do remember seeing that thread but I inferred it was a smaller bore than LS3 and I was hoping to re-use current parts where feasible. Or, replace the current top-end with a solution that would partially be compatible with a 416 if I went down that path in the future.
From what I can tell, there are only 8 public E85 stations in Florida, the closest being 30-45 minutes away. That's not practical.
Patrick spec'ed the last three cams for me (two on a 347 LS1 and one for my current LS3). I was hoping to find someone who had already done it on a N/A LS3 hydraulic motor <=416ci so I could copy their proven solution.
From what I can tell, there are only 8 public E85 stations in Florida, the closest being 30-45 minutes away. That's not practical.
Patrick spec'ed the last three cams for me (two on a 347 LS1 and one for my current LS3). I was hoping to find someone who had already done it on a N/A LS3 hydraulic motor <=416ci so I could copy their proven solution.
08-26-2017, 09:13 AM
#16
ModSquad
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You won't need E85 for 12:1...93 if available, is fine.
08-27-2017, 01:24 PM
#17
I found these ancient dynos, I'll see if the owners are willing to share their combo. If I need a 4" stroke, it would be nice to not have to completely rebuild the top-end also.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...l#post12647082
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...hp-513-tq.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...l#post12647082
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...hp-513-tq.html
08-27-2017, 03:34 PM
#19
As you stated 1 sick engine is the guy in whom I was referring. Simple and cheap the factory heads need a little massaging/milling. You could get to the exhaust on the next go around. 500+ rwhp isn't bad for Factory pieces. Better intake like the *MSD would have netted 1sic what around 560 at the rear. Pause I'm Drooling.... with factory parts besides a better entry and exhaust.
LLSR has many different lobes. There just gentle in terms of aggressiveness. Heard a guy say LLSR with 800 lift. LMAO! They're just not as aggressive as other 800 lift cams in the ramps.
LLSR has many different lobes. There just gentle in terms of aggressiveness. Heard a guy say LLSR with 800 lift. LMAO! They're just not as aggressive as other 800 lift cams in the ramps.
08-27-2017, 03:50 PM
#20
TECH Veteran
Everyone on here go give you they own opinion on this thread..... kinda like asking guys what are your favorite fruit to eat.
Do you plan on staying with a stock cube LS3 or going with a 416ci stroker setup?
You mention hard acceleration... a stroker crank will give you just that. On the heads you have so many options. Comes down to really how much money you wants to spend... Just remember the cam is the brain of the engine no matter the heads,intake and final cubes you choose.
Do you plan on staying with a stock cube LS3 or going with a 416ci stroker setup?
You mention hard acceleration... a stroker crank will give you just that. On the heads you have so many options. Comes down to really how much money you wants to spend... Just remember the cam is the brain of the engine no matter the heads,intake and final cubes you choose.