Building a motor to support boost / 600 WHP
03-07-2018, 05:15 AM
#1
Building a motor to support boost / 600 WHP I was thinking of going with a Forged LQ4 / Stock Crank. What all would you recommend in that build and how much should I expect to pay for a LQ4 short block capable of supporting 600 WHP?
Local builders want $9k for stock displacement forged Iron 6.0 shortblock and I understand its forged and all but I feel thats slightly on the high end.. but what do you think and how much should I be prepared to pay?
Can my stock LS1 be biult to handle the power reliably and if so what would you recommend and how much should I expect to pay?
Not trying to be cheap here, but trying to make sure I don't over-spend where I don't have to if that makes sense.
Local builders want $9k for stock displacement forged Iron 6.0 shortblock and I understand its forged and all but I feel thats slightly on the high end.. but what do you think and how much should I be prepared to pay?
Can my stock LS1 be biult to handle the power reliably and if so what would you recommend and how much should I expect to pay?
Not trying to be cheap here, but trying to make sure I don't over-spend where I don't have to if that makes sense.
Last edited by Need4Camaro; 03-07-2018 at 05:26 AM.
03-07-2018, 09:40 AM
#6
TECH Senior Member
03-07-2018, 11:09 AM
#7
They keep saying this stuff, and I hope to god its true because im about to find out first hand... ;D
Only thing imma warn you about is piston/cyl temps. Its been said the OEM rings are not up to the high temperature challenge of double+ output. So you will want water injection when passing, say, 12psi of boost or 1150*F EGT on the turbine inlet whichever comes first. Probably the EGT if you are wrapped properly.
Only thing imma warn you about is piston/cyl temps. Its been said the OEM rings are not up to the high temperature challenge of double+ output. So you will want water injection when passing, say, 12psi of boost or 1150*F EGT on the turbine inlet whichever comes first. Probably the EGT if you are wrapped properly.
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03-07-2018, 11:19 AM
#9
I dont buy that. Piston rings butt and tear the piston apart even when a/f and timing is perfect, when the engine isn't built with the proper clearances.
you can't bandaid piston/wall or pistonring end clearance with tuning. It takes temperature control.
Now, you COULD say that "tuning the water injection system" is part of tuning. Which I would totally buy and agree. But the piston getting hot and tearing itself apart due to factory clearances.... cannot be fixed with tuning fuel and air.
you can't bandaid piston/wall or pistonring end clearance with tuning. It takes temperature control.
Now, you COULD say that "tuning the water injection system" is part of tuning. Which I would totally buy and agree. But the piston getting hot and tearing itself apart due to factory clearances.... cannot be fixed with tuning fuel and air.
03-07-2018, 11:40 AM
#10
I dont buy that. Piston rings butt and tear the piston apart even when a/f and timing is perfect, when the engine isn't built with the proper clearances.
you can't bandaid piston/wall or pistonring end clearance with tuning. It takes temperature control.
Now, you COULD say that "tuning the water injection system" is part of tuning. Which I would totally buy and agree. But the piston getting hot and tearing itself apart due to factory clearances.... cannot be fixed with tuning fuel and air.
you can't bandaid piston/wall or pistonring end clearance with tuning. It takes temperature control.
Now, you COULD say that "tuning the water injection system" is part of tuning. Which I would totally buy and agree. But the piston getting hot and tearing itself apart due to factory clearances.... cannot be fixed with tuning fuel and air.
03-07-2018, 11:47 AM
#11
I hope I can help you learn something today. There is nobody using 93 and 12+ psi of boost on any stock LS engine (for long) for a reason. the number of Watts coming out of the engine is too high- even if it does not upset the fuel, the metal of the engine will over-expand. Some form of EGT restriction is needed. Making an engine richer than 11's, 10:1 9:1 7:1 is not a viable solution. We want the a/f near 14 if possible. it just isn't possible usually because it would upset the nature/reaction of the fuel. You are thinking from the fuel end, which is fine, but all fuels, and especially 93 octane, have cooling limitations. Water is better to add as low temp liquid when temps are above its boiling point because of the phase change potential. I could take an 11.8:1, add some water and potentially be near 13-14 again some applications. Depends on compression, and rate of compression, heat transfer properties of the materials surrounding the area.
03-07-2018, 11:52 AM
#12
I hope I can help you learn something today. There is nobody using 93 and 12+ psi of boost on any stock LS engine (for long) for a reason. the number of Watts coming out of the engine is too high- even if it does not upset the fuel, the metal of the engine will over-expand. Some form of EGT restriction is needed. Making an engine richer than 11's, 10:1 9:1 7:1 is not a viable solution. We want the a/f near 14 if possible. it just isn't possible usually because it would upset the nature/reaction of the fuel. You are thinking from the fuel end, which is fine, but all fuels, and especially 93 octane, have cooling limitations. Water is way better. I could take an 11.8:1, add some water and potentially be near 13-14 again some applications. Depends on compression, and rate of compression, heat transfer properties of the materials surrounding the area.
03-07-2018, 12:14 PM
#13
I didn't say it was impossible. I could take an engine to the dyno and make a 12psi pass. Once or twice. I could even try 15, 18, 25. Heck 30psi why not. But you can't tell me thats going to work out in the long run. So wheres the limit? Whats the safe number? You saying I can get away with 18psi on a track in Florida for 3 hours of abuse on 93? You have to be joking. 15 even and the EGT is so high it starts to melt something. I wouldn't risk more than 7 because I am conservative. Is a difference of 3psi really worth getting raised blood pressure on the internet? This just tells me you never tried running a real race in a hot environment on 93 at 15+ psi of boost, like a steady state load dyno. I've had 2.0L engines at 20psi in that 'weather' on 93 but they had piston manufacturer recommended clearances for boost.
Nobody with a running engine in the SBE reliability list is using 93 by itself over 12psi long for a reason. Do some statistics, take some math lessons.
Nobody with a running engine in the SBE reliability list is using 93 by itself over 12psi long for a reason. Do some statistics, take some math lessons.
03-07-2018, 12:30 PM
#14
I didn't say it was impossible. I could take an engine to the dyno and make a 12psi pass. Once or twice. I could even try 15, 18, 25. Heck 30psi why not. But you can't tell me thats going to work out in the long run. So wheres the limit? Whats the safe number? You saying I can get away with 18psi on a track in Florida for 3 hours of abuse on 93? You have to be joking. 15 even and the EGT is so high it starts to melt something. I wouldn't risk more than 7 because I am conservative. Is a difference of 3psi really worth getting raised blood pressure on the internet? This just tells me you never tried running a real race in a hot environment on 93 at 15+ psi of boost, like a steady state load dyno. I've had 2.0L engines at 20psi in that 'weather' on 93 but they had piston manufacturer recommended clearances for boost.
Nobody with a running engine in the SBE reliability list is using 93 by itself over 12psi long for a reason. Do some statistics, take some math lessons.
Nobody with a running engine in the SBE reliability list is using 93 by itself over 12psi long for a reason. Do some statistics, take some math lessons.
There was a thread on here where I explained how I tune high hp and pump gas, but I'm sure you're not interested because its not possible. PS....see sig for a tutorial on how to make a stock 4L60E live at 700hp....but then again thats not possible either right?
03-07-2018, 12:35 PM
#15
Put it this way, I can guarantee you two things and I think you will agree.
#1 the max recommended exhaust gas temperature for OEM style turbochargers typically found in oil-journal bearing, such as what Borg Warner provides, is around 1380*F
Brian Rhinehart
BorgWarner
So this gives us a "max number" to shoot for. Easy to agree with, based on specification apparently.
Whenever you see this number, whatever the boost is, that is your number where, if adding more fuel isn't ideal, you would inject water. It happens to be between 10psi and 15psi for most engines using 93 octane. Engines with turbo pistons, OEM oil squirters, and other boost-friendly additives such as advanced combustion chamber hemispherical design (i.e. 2jz and sr20) will hold EGT down even until 20psi of boost on 93 octane properly setup for short bursts. But without the proper piston ring and piston-wall clearance, none of it would matter.
Can a factory ring 01-03 Gen3 5.3 LS engine tolerate 1380*F exhaust gas plus the 100*+ additional temperature between the turbine and the piston for extended periods of racing at WOT? Why so many people re-gapping their rings? Now that is a question I would love to know the answer to, but I doubt you have it and I don't even measure my EGT so this is thing #2: its easier to be safe than sorry. I won't be reading EGT because you don't need to know the EGT to know that something is intuitively unsafe or stupid to attempt. I dont feel like changing my engine but I am pretty sure I could get it to piston ring failure at 11.8:1, 12psi and 9* of timing if I wanted it to.
#1 the max recommended exhaust gas temperature for OEM style turbochargers typically found in oil-journal bearing, such as what Borg Warner provides, is around 1380*F
The turbine housing, based purely on the specification, should not see more than 1382° F.
BorgWarner
So this gives us a "max number" to shoot for. Easy to agree with, based on specification apparently.
Whenever you see this number, whatever the boost is, that is your number where, if adding more fuel isn't ideal, you would inject water. It happens to be between 10psi and 15psi for most engines using 93 octane. Engines with turbo pistons, OEM oil squirters, and other boost-friendly additives such as advanced combustion chamber hemispherical design (i.e. 2jz and sr20) will hold EGT down even until 20psi of boost on 93 octane properly setup for short bursts. But without the proper piston ring and piston-wall clearance, none of it would matter.
Can a factory ring 01-03 Gen3 5.3 LS engine tolerate 1380*F exhaust gas plus the 100*+ additional temperature between the turbine and the piston for extended periods of racing at WOT? Why so many people re-gapping their rings? Now that is a question I would love to know the answer to, but I doubt you have it and I don't even measure my EGT so this is thing #2: its easier to be safe than sorry. I won't be reading EGT because you don't need to know the EGT to know that something is intuitively unsafe or stupid to attempt. I dont feel like changing my engine but I am pretty sure I could get it to piston ring failure at 11.8:1, 12psi and 9* of timing if I wanted it to.
Last edited by kingtal0n; 03-07-2018 at 12:42 PM. Reason: decided Id rather not change my engine
03-07-2018, 12:43 PM
#16
Put it this way, I can guarantee you two things and I think you will agree.
#1 the max recommended exhaust gas temperature for OEM style turbochargers typically found in oil-journal bearing, such as what Borg Warner provides, is around 1380*F
Brian Rhinehart
BorgWarner
So this gives us a "max number" to shoot for. Easy to agree with, based on specification apparently.
Whenever you see this number, whatever the boost is, that is your number where, if adding more fuel isn't ideal, you would inject water. It happens to be between 10psi and 15psi for most engines using 93 octane. Engines with turbo pistons, OEM oil squirters, and other boost-friendly additives such as advanced combustion chamber hemispherical design (i.e. 2jz and sr20) will hold EGT down even until 20psi of boost on 93 octane properly setup for short bursts. But without the proper piston ring and piston-wall clearance, none of it would matter.
Can a factory ring 01-03 Gen3 5.3 LS engine tolerate 1380*F exhaust gas plus the 100*+ additional temperature between the turbine and the piston for extended periods of racing at WOT? Now that is a question I would love to know the answer to, but I doubt you have it and I don't even measure my EGT so this is thing #2: its easier to be safe than sorry. I won't be reading EGT because you don't need to know the EGT to know that something is intuitively unsafe or stupid to attempt. I'd even be willing to make you a little bet, loser pays for a new engine that I could get my 5.3 to explode on a dyno and it would be piston ring failure at 11.8:1 and 12psi of boost, 9*~ of timing. Bet I could make it happen if I wanted to.
#1 the max recommended exhaust gas temperature for OEM style turbochargers typically found in oil-journal bearing, such as what Borg Warner provides, is around 1380*F
Brian Rhinehart
BorgWarner
So this gives us a "max number" to shoot for. Easy to agree with, based on specification apparently.
Whenever you see this number, whatever the boost is, that is your number where, if adding more fuel isn't ideal, you would inject water. It happens to be between 10psi and 15psi for most engines using 93 octane. Engines with turbo pistons, OEM oil squirters, and other boost-friendly additives such as advanced combustion chamber hemispherical design (i.e. 2jz and sr20) will hold EGT down even until 20psi of boost on 93 octane properly setup for short bursts. But without the proper piston ring and piston-wall clearance, none of it would matter.
Can a factory ring 01-03 Gen3 5.3 LS engine tolerate 1380*F exhaust gas plus the 100*+ additional temperature between the turbine and the piston for extended periods of racing at WOT? Now that is a question I would love to know the answer to, but I doubt you have it and I don't even measure my EGT so this is thing #2: its easier to be safe than sorry. I won't be reading EGT because you don't need to know the EGT to know that something is intuitively unsafe or stupid to attempt. I'd even be willing to make you a little bet, loser pays for a new engine that I could get my 5.3 to explode on a dyno and it would be piston ring failure at 11.8:1 and 12psi of boost, 9*~ of timing. Bet I could make it happen if I wanted to.
#2- Who says you should be targeting an AFR @ 11.8? Like I said, obviously you don't know how to tune for high hp and pump gas. I would never target that AFR at peak torque and above, especially for 12 psi.
If only you would stop talking and genuinely listen to some of the people on here who do things you say are impossible; you might actually learn something and be a better tuner/builder.
03-07-2018, 12:46 PM
#17
I prefer statistics, confidence intervals that I make up to make myself feel better about stuff
You go ahead and run 13+ psi on 93 and I wish you the best,
I however will be injecting water to the air stream, 100% distilled/RO from publix to put a cap on EGT. It will keep everything under the hood cooler and extend the lives of all components. And clean them free of carbon deposits. For $0.95/gallon or whatever. (Actually a small RO system is only $110 and makes it for like $0.005/gallon) just leave off the taste additives.
You go ahead and run 13+ psi on 93 and I wish you the best,
I however will be injecting water to the air stream, 100% distilled/RO from publix to put a cap on EGT. It will keep everything under the hood cooler and extend the lives of all components. And clean them free of carbon deposits. For $0.95/gallon or whatever. (Actually a small RO system is only $110 and makes it for like $0.005/gallon) just leave off the taste additives.
03-07-2018, 12:57 PM
#18
"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments. It is also sometimes colloquially used to doubt statistics used to prove an opponent's point."
03-07-2018, 01:01 PM
#19
#1- You are completely ignoring the fact that a richer AFR will cool the combustion chamber. Just because it doesn't cool it as well as water/meth, doesn't mean it doesn't work.
#2- Who says you should be targeting an AFR @ 11.8? Like I said, obviously you don't know how to tune for high hp and pump gas. I would never target that AFR at peak torque and above, especially for 12 psi.
If only you would stop talking and genuinely listen to some of the people on here who do things you say are impossible; you might actually learn something and be a better tuner/builder.
#2- Who says you should be targeting an AFR @ 11.8? Like I said, obviously you don't know how to tune for high hp and pump gas. I would never target that AFR at peak torque and above, especially for 12 psi.
If only you would stop talking and genuinely listen to some of the people on here who do things you say are impossible; you might actually learn something and be a better tuner/builder.
See this is crazy talk to me. Its like you are the crazy person right now. Excuse me, sir, but why on Earth, and please don't take this the wrong way, but why would you keep injecting more and more expensive gasoline to cool an engine when you could be injecting water instead? I think you do not respect the value of gasoline, realize you are throwing it away like that. Enough is enough!
Check the BSFC, lrn2math. If the BSFC got so bad, using 10:1 to cool an engine, I can't even keep that setup because it would not fit my goal for economy of 25+mpg combined and 500rwhp. Yes I've seen 8.5:1 A/F ratio Evo engines on 93 and 35psi of boost. It isn't my path
I expect nothing less.
"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments. It is also sometimes colloquially used to doubt statistics used to prove an opponent's point."
"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments. It is also sometimes colloquially used to doubt statistics used to prove an opponent's point."
03-07-2018, 01:26 PM
#20
See this is crazy talk to me. Its like you are the crazy person right now. Excuse me, sir, but why on Earth, and please don't take this the wrong way, but why would you keep injecting more and more expensive gasoline to cool an engine when you could be injecting water instead? I think you do not respect the value of gasoline, realize you are throwing it away like that. Enough is enough!
Check the BSFC, lrn2math. If the BSFC got so bad, using 10:1 to cool an engine, I can't even keep that setup because it would not fit my goal for economy of 25+mpg combined and 500rwhp. Yes I've seen 8.5:1 A/F ratio Evo engines on 93 and 35psi of boost. It isn't my path
You see me using any statistics? Why do you think I said what I said? Im not trying to convince you with numbers; I am saying you should go look at the numbers and draw your own conclusions. You feel like you have, thats called heuristics, and it is dangerous to think you already know something when really we know nothing. Admitting how little we know is very important to start the learning process.
Check the BSFC, lrn2math. If the BSFC got so bad, using 10:1 to cool an engine, I can't even keep that setup because it would not fit my goal for economy of 25+mpg combined and 500rwhp. Yes I've seen 8.5:1 A/F ratio Evo engines on 93 and 35psi of boost. It isn't my path
You see me using any statistics? Why do you think I said what I said? Im not trying to convince you with numbers; I am saying you should go look at the numbers and draw your own conclusions. You feel like you have, thats called heuristics, and it is dangerous to think you already know something when really we know nothing. Admitting how little we know is very important to start the learning process.
Calculating BSFC's and airflow and turbo efficiencies.....been there done that. My 2 bachelors degrees have let me "lrn2mth", have you graduated yet or are still in school?