Well here goes nothing (cover install) - LS1TECH - Camaro and Firebird Forum Discussion

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Well here goes nothing (cover install)

 
Old 12-14-2018, 08:25 PM
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Default Well here goes nothing (cover install)

i guess thats the title of my build thread. i will change the topic in the parenthesis as to my current questions rather than creating new posts. i made a post over in the lounge 3-4 weeks ago about taking a break from the car world and leaving my car sit disabled for a year or 2. well that didn't last long. novel time....(first post is useless, if you wanna skip the back story go to post 2)

back when i was dreaming after i got my z28 10 years ago, i couldn't wait til i could get a cam. well that car got sold, and was replaced with an SS 2-3 years later that was in much better shape. that car got the cam and headers. i always waned to do a 7.0L n/a build in that car, n/a was just more my thing......575-625 wheel is plenty enough for me, and idk a big cube motor just seems more manly to me than a 5.7 turbo car. that was the new dream. in the meantime, i figured well lets build the car up, im goona keep it for awhile and beat on it, i should build everything up to handle a 600 rwhp car just in case i were to ever get there, and peace of mind for my current 450 hp that my rear wont blow and my trans wont twist shafts. after the cam, bolt ons and exhaust, the midwest chassis fab 9 went in. with the rear dropped, i figured it was fuel pump time, you know, just in case we ever build bigger. the research i did basically uncovered that the racetronix with hotwire that i put in the Z28 is really getting pushed to the limits on 600 rwhp builds. so i said well lets play it safe and go too big just like the rear, so in went the lonnies double pumps and ill run the hobbs switch if necessary. well after a year on that, i found a deal on a built t56 and threw in a monster clutch. so now we have a fuel system that can handle up to the limits of the stock lines, and a driveline where the weakest link is most likely the clutch rated at 900 tq. all we need is a motor now right? well i bought the ported 799s and the fast 90 and ran that for 3000 miles until a lash cap decided it wanted to hang out in the lifter trays. started making noise and pulled the covers to find a worn down valve tip, and thats when i decided to take a break.

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Old 12-14-2018, 08:25 PM
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so back in my dreaming days, i came across ERL and saw the effort they put into their builds and was like, i have to get a resleeved block from them. no reason to take a chance on the ls7 sleeves when i didn't take a chance by saving a buck anywhere else on the car. as we know they moved away from doing there LSX builds, and i was like well we will need a new plan, like RED, but an opportunity came across LS1tech earlier this year that was my calling. a guy was selling a 90% complete ERL 429. missing an intake, a few covers, and the oil pan guts. was told he was making 1200hp on this dragonslayer/i beam combo through trick flow heads with the help of twins. his hot WOT oil pressure was becoming a concern, and was down to about 50, so he used that as his excuse to build another. he posted that motor for sale and since the price was right, i figured id part the thing out and keep the block. i cant use his turbo pistons for my n/a build anyway. if it does have the parts he said it has, i should get the ERL block for under 1000 vs 3000+ for a RED block. ithat was plan a. i was fine keeping that motor locked away since it needed to be torn apart and rebuilt, a lot of effort, wait for some money to save up blah blah. plus my car was running fine at the time. my valve issue occurred, and i was like well im out of my car for awhile. then along came plan B.

so running the classifieds for no other reason than to waste time, i come across another ERL motor. this one was brand new with the exception of having 1 heat cycle on the rings, setup for N/A with 12.0 to 1ish compression with stock LS7 heads. new gen 4 5.3 short block with all covers, cam, timing set. so basically my perfect short block with no concessions. slap on a top end and oil pan and we are good. best part, he was just under 1.5 hours away. i go and meet him and pick this motor up for $5400. a great deal for a fully blueprinted motor, and even better no shipping. so im in the process of parting out the first ERL motor and should have no issues breaking even to cover this motor i just got, may even get a $400 head start on the new motor.

if you haven't noticed, i then decided to go for it and build this 427. i cant justify not doing it anymore when the short block is ready to go just sitting there collecting dust. i have a few very minor rust concerns to deal with on my 2000 camaro, and some paint in the engine bay, but should be ready for this motor without a ton of effort on the chassis since everything else has been addressed waiting for this day.

So i made the mistake of deciding this has to be another overpriced (subjective) Mamo build, and i called him to get some info but pretty much had my mind made up. remember that spare no expense jurassic park mentality the rest of this 20 year old car had? put the deposit down on his 260 or 265 LS7 heads, forget which size they were, and goona get the yella terras of course. so now we wait a few weeks and get to decide on the rest. i will get some pics once the build fully begins, but im not much of a photographer so wont be a ton.

since the heads are a good chunk of change, im deciding to go with a stock Ls7 intake and my existing exhaust setup for now to save a lot of $$$ and they can easily be changed later. i already have some ugly and somehow not leaking dynatech 1 3/4 stepped to 1 7/8 headers into a y with flowmaster merge dumped, so that saves me at least 1000 between headers and exhaust shop, and i just got an Ls7 intake and rail with deutchworks ls7 injectors that flow 50 @ 58 psi. the setup was another ls1tech special with 3000 miles on everything for 500 shipped. the cool part is those injectors are perfect and i assume i can reuse them when the mamofied MSD arrives in a year or 2. im estimating at 600 rwhp they will be a little over 80% duty. i also have a nick williams 90 already from my ls1 setup so between the exhaust and intake, im saving 2000 up front.

im highly considering going LLSR with this setup but need to do some more research on setting it up, but i assume with the YT rockers it will be a breeze and the bi yearly lash checks/adjustments should be easy as well. the other small incidentals ill ask about when the time comes.
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Old 12-14-2018, 08:32 PM
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so the turbo erl motor had head studs, and im pretty sure thats all im goona use off that motor. the new erl motor has an adjustable timing set and i think he said a C5R chain but will have to look at it.....they both have oil pumps and ill have to decide which one im goona use and hope mamo will do a favor for me and port one of those if he is ok with it. so first question.....

this is my first build besides doing the heads and cam on my ls1, but as far as oiling goes, is it best since this is my first to set both up on engine stands, and remove the oil pan and guts from my LS1 and put them right back on in backwards order onto the ERL motor? is everything compatible? if not can you point me to the right thread.....i think the windage needs spacing or notched or something?

what other small things should i keep an eye out in the classifieds for?

running this setup, im goona be running the gen 4 valley cover correct? the kind with no knock sensors? so i need knock sensor extension? what other small stuff that should i start looking for?
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Old 12-14-2018, 08:37 PM
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sheet


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Old 12-14-2018, 09:13 PM
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Old 12-14-2018, 09:42 PM
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So is your first block for sale? What is it exactly?
You're in Wilmington now....thought you were in lancaster
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Old 12-15-2018, 02:47 AM
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Old 12-15-2018, 07:57 AM
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The stock windage tray should work, usually they just need one or two washers on the main studs to space them away from the rods. Callies compstar rods are good about clearance so you shouldn’t need much. Some of the holes in the windage tray will need to be opened up a little for the larger diameter studs but a unibit will take care of that.

Make sure you check pickup to pan clearance. Too much or too little could cause oiling issues. I usually shoot for 1/4” to 3/8” as a general rule.
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Old 12-15-2018, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by KCS View Post
The stock windage tray should work, usually they just need one or two washers on the main studs to space them away from the rods. Callies compstar rods are good about clearance so you shouldn’t need much. Some of the holes in the windage tray will need to be opened up a little for the larger diameter studs but a unibit will take care of that.

Make sure you check pickup to pan clearance. Too much or too little could cause oiling issues. I usually shoot for 1/4” to 3/8” as a general rule.
thanks for the advice. im sure its one of those things when i see it and study it it will make sense
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Old 12-23-2018, 07:19 PM
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so i told tony i want a 5% buffer from max compression, he kinda agrees and has no problems with that. since we dont need to push it to the max, id like that buffer. he told me he wants to set me up with 11.75 to 11.8 compression. i was under the impression that 12.2 to 1 compression (give or take) was basically the max for 93 octane which is readily available here. i do trust him obviously but dont wanna keep hounding him with emails, despite him not minding but i enjoy hearing other point of views........he has no issues running 12.0 12.1 but says i may need to run booster when its hot out just to be safe.

so do you guys think his compression ratio target is good for that buffer? i also read you can run more compression if you mess with the cam more.....i no raising compression to 12.0 wont really bring on much more power, but would i benefit more from running say 12.2 to 1 compression and making those cam adjustments to get my 5% buffer, or will messing with the cam to accommodate for that compression result in less power? he has no issues running it at 11.8, but also said he wouldn't mind it if it was his car and just run 12.0 and run booster at each fillup.

the booster idea isn't out of the picture, but **** if i was goona run booster id say go to 12.4-12.5....is that the right line of thinking? any ideas how much power would there to gain going from the 11.8 pump gas to 12.3-12.4 booster? are there any benefits from running higher compression and booster, like better drivability, cleaner motor less carbon etc?

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Old 12-23-2018, 09:42 PM
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We went absolutely max effort, no holds barred/no budget with mine, and I’m at 12.42:1, which is absolutely max for pump 93, with Tony’s heads. Not every head will allow you to get by with that, but Tony’s stuff is so efficient that it works well. Rule of thumb is 30 hp for every jump in point of compression. Your MAYBE leaving 10 hp on the table, which you’ll never notice. I have to be picky with fillups, and I don’t run just any gas. Chevron for me, which we tuned with, with great timing numbers and no knock retard. Keep in mind that camshaft design will dictate dynamic compression numbers, which if Tony is doing, you’ll have no problems with.
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Old 12-23-2018, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Che70velle View Post
We went absolutely max effort, no holds barred/no budget with mine, and I’m at 12.42:1, which is absolutely max for pump 93, with Tony’s heads. Not every head will allow you to get by with that, but Tony’s stuff is so efficient that it works well. Rule of thumb is 30 hp for every jump in point of compression. Your MAYBE leaving 10 hp on the table, which you’ll never notice. I have to be picky with fillups, and I don’t run just any gas. Chevron for me, which we tuned with, with great timing numbers and no knock retard. Keep in mind that camshaft design will dictate dynamic compression numbers, which if Tony is doing, you’ll have no problems with.
yea i hear you on the pump gas comment, will need to be picky and consistently for sure, but i did find a thread on here about some guy who did independent testing and i know he said shell v power (AKA 93) was super consistent....dont remember is he said it was the best tho. consistency is almost more important i would say.

i googled it and you are correct about the 1 point nets you 30 wish, but then as i read on the more compression you add the less of a jump it has......that doesnt make sense so heres an example........im making these numbers up but you will get what i am saying

going from.....
9.0 to 1- 10.0 to 1 = 30 hp gain
10.0 to 1-11.0 to 1 = 25hp gain
11.0 to 1 to 12.0 to 1 -= 20 hp gain.

so if that is true it may not even be 10 hp.....

but now my mind is going where it shouldn't be going, but the real question is, run a booster to achieve 12.5 to 1 compression, so maybe 97ish octane, then have the tuner add a little more timing......that could be 30-40 hp gains right......thoughts?

any negative affects on power by adjusting the cam to change the DCR to run more compression? i dont know what im talking about just using the words i found via google. i dont need to know how these things work, not smart enough to understand, i just wanna know how it will affect the end product so thats why im asking these silly questions here...
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Old 12-24-2018, 04:51 AM
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Me, I'd stick to the 11.8 compression if you actually intend to drive the car on the street to any degree. Only you can decide if the hassle of keeping octane booster handy at each fill up is worth the hassle for 5 whp to 15 whp or so. At some point you will get a tank of marginal gas even at a busy gas station. 93 is more expensive and most people are cheap as cheap gets when it comes to buying gas, so sometimes even the good quality 93 octane gas sits for a long time because it sells very slowly.

Just above the card swipe on many gas pumps is a gallon count for how many gallons have been pumped. At one of the places I consistently pure 93 octane gas without ethanol if you pay attention you can count up the gallons of 87 moved vs 93 moved. Typically about 18 to 25 times as much 87 octane gets as 93 octane depending on which of the eight pump you are using.

Depending on if you travel to any degree with the car it's very possible to get stuck having to fill up on 91 octane when traveling state to state. Keeping octane booster on hand is probably wise but it will also be a hassle and an expense if you drive a fair amount.

FWIW - My small block 72 vette with iron block, aluminum heads carb and hei ignition runs 10.85 to 1 compression with no real issues. On very hot 98+ degree days, the car needs a little octane boost or a gallon of C16 to be happy. On hot DRY days 95-96 degrees the vette wants some extra octane. The level of humidity in the air is also a factor in octane tolerance.

I really think an aluminum block helps greatly with heat management and better octane tolerance on hot days. My vette has a much upgraded cooling system and that helps. Upgrading your cooling system and fans helps with heat management. Given your project definitely budget for cooling upgrades if that's not already been done.

If it's a track beast go all out with compression by all means.
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Old 12-24-2018, 08:01 AM
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Mine is pretty similar to chevelle. Running 12.3 compression on 93 octane.

You can change dynamic compression by changing the cam timing. My IVC is delayed to 52 degrees, which nets me 8.3 dynamic compression on the calculator. This effectively makes the car streetable.

But DCR is not the end all be all final word on the matter. DCR is useful for determining if the engine will be prone to knock at lower rpm acceleration. At some point though your static compression takes over at the top end and you are limited by SCR and fuel.

I have seen combos where people put in a larger cam to reduce DCR only to knock worse because of other influences at higher rpm that supersede DCR like cylinder fill dynamics. At higher rpm where your cam comes into its tune, and the VE gets really good.
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Old 12-24-2018, 08:19 AM
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Maybe with a little lower compression number you can bump timing up to help offset loss. What are you 12 to 1 guys running with your overall timing 24-25 degrees at WOT?
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Old 12-24-2018, 12:18 PM
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Mine was a 346, but I ran 29* at WOT... That was with my AFR 205's @ 59cc. 11.7 compression.
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Old 12-24-2018, 05:29 PM
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so what is your guys opinion on `straying from the new 100% pump gas 11.8 safe compression? i dont really have an issue with the booster, just i saw a video from boostane and they said in the video it can sometimes take time for the booster to mix properly with gas. all the big name brands all have 93 octane available basically in my state and all the bordering states so that isn't an issue. heres my thinking......

i wanna know about possibly using 93, and using booster to put myself around 96-97 octane. up the compression accordingly to say 12.5? no idea here but between that .7 bump, and run more timing, again no idea how much more im not a tuner, but is it unrealistic to see minimal gains of 25 hp across most of the curve from this? it still could be relatively safe id imagine as long as we figure out how much booster to use and timing to find our new 5% safety margin. not that this is a max effort build but obviously im trying to get my $$$ worth or else i would have just spent 3000 on ported ls7 heads and called it a day. say $8-10 of booster at every fillup for 25hp gain seems worth it, i mean id have to WOT during each of my tanks or else im just wasting money lol.

side note, someone should develop a system to setup an individual cell just for booster that kinda just iv drips into your fuel line, the idea is that it sorta mixes on its way to the rail, adding the complexity to the system, you could almost do an additional in line filter kind of thing that has a spinning blade to mix it all before it gets to the rail. you just fill up the cell every couple tanks, and this way its always mixed. if you installed out little octane blender/mixer after the fuel return back to the tank, that would help make sure ur not "reoctaning" fuel that already has been boosted. ok, lets **** all over my idea.....
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Old 12-24-2018, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Floorman279 View Post
so what is your guys opinion on `straying from the new 100% pump gas 11.8 safe compression? i dont really have an issue with the booster, just i saw a video from boostane and they said in the video it can sometimes take time for the booster to mix properly with gas. all the big name brands all have 93 octane available basically in my state and all the bordering states so that isn't an issue. heres my thinking......

i wanna know about possibly using 93, and using booster to put myself around 96-97 octane. up the compression accordingly to say 12.5? no idea here but between that .7 bump, and run more timing, again no idea how much more im not a tuner, but is it unrealistic to see minimal gains of 25 hp across most of the curve from this? it still could be relatively safe id imagine as long as we figure out how much booster to use and timing to find our new 5% safety margin. not that this is a max effort build but obviously im trying to get my $$$ worth or else i would have just spent 3000 on ported ls7 heads and called it a day. say $8-10 of booster at every fillup for 25hp gain seems worth it, i mean id have to WOT during each of my tanks or else im just wasting money lol.

side note, someone should develop a system to setup an individual cell just for booster that kinda just iv drips into your fuel line, the idea is that it sorta mixes on its way to the rail, adding the complexity to the system, you could almost do an additional in line filter kind of thing that has a spinning blade to mix it all before it gets to the rail. you just fill up the cell every couple tanks, and this way its always mixed. if you installed out little octane blender/mixer after the fuel return back to the tank, that would help make sure ur not "reoctaning" fuel that already has been boosted. ok, lets **** all over my idea.....
If your dead set on wanting 10ish more hp from the build, tell Tony what your wanting. He will get you to 12.3-12.4. I personally don’t like the idea of having to use octane boost for my car. I was content with 12.0:1, but Tony assured me that I could go 12.4 and have no issues on pump alone. I was hesitant, but he sold me on it after listening to what he had to say. Opinions are meaningless to me. I want data, and Tony has plenty to share. And again, if he’s doing your camshaft, you can be assured that the combo will work great on what fuel your wanting to run.
As far as the “octane boost drip setup”, my opinion is that you’d have to run another complete fuel system, from pump to another set of injectors, and use a sensor that detects what octane your using. From there a dedicated ECM (maybe?) would use a PWM setup to inject exactly how much boost is required to make up the formula, to make the octane safe. I’ve seen setups like this used, but instead of octane boost, Race gas, or even nitromethane was being injected separately. Again, just my opinion...
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Old 12-24-2018, 10:46 PM
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if i was goona run an octane boost, id wanna run more timing as well to really take advantage of it, you dont think that would be close to 25 hp gains?

im confused as to why he pushed 12.3-12.4 for you guys so much but is recommending 11.8 for my build unless from talking to me he really is just content with the 11.8 for street car principle
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Old 12-25-2018, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Floorman279
if i was goona run an octane boost, id wanna run more timing as well to really take advantage of it, you dont think that would be close to 25 hp gains?

im confused as to why he pushed 12.3-12.4 for you guys so much but is recommending 11.8 for my build unless from talking to me he really is just content with the 11.8 for street car principle
Mine was not designed by Tony, but by me. And its a stop gap until I can save up for Tony's 265 heads. I am likely leaving 40 hp on the table but I did what I had to to get the car running. I firmly believe it is best to keep the car running if it all possible even if it means going back in for revision surgery.

Sometimes, you are better off to run slightly less compression and more timing. I need to look at my tune to see where timing is on mine. It may only be 21 degrees. But Tony might be thinking along those lines. Its a best guess.
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