TFS 245 vs. TFS 260 - Page 10 - LS1TECH - Camaro and Firebird Forum Discussion

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TFS 245 vs. TFS 260

 
Old 03-15-2019, 06:25 PM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by Smokey B
You'd need to get with a porter and discuss chambers and a 300 shot of drugs. BES or C. Frank off the top of my head and a Mast,all pro, now the big spring brodix head my fav 4 cost. If you know of Dennis Wheat GREAT head porter and person. CID 4500 intake with a accufab 5500 or 6500 Tb port matched top end.
I'm 45 min from BES but trying to keep an eye on costs because I still have to get a 4l80e and a cage. Can I get away without cutting the cowl?
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:31 PM
  #182  
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There around 1k for head port work. Buy your own parts & heads. 1 of The best @ 45 min away? Your crazy... Close mouth Won't get Feed! It's listed on there site as a Brodix or All Pro head package. You supply dirt cheap brodix heads @ around 1400.oo then Cnc 1k to 1500. Parts needed for valve train.

Last edited by Smokey B; 03-15-2019 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:41 PM
  #183  
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^^^^^^^
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:48 PM
  #184  
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BES did my Ls7 heads
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:40 PM
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Once i compared valve lengths i kinda would just do somethings different as far as heads and which casting. Spring pads and porting with thinner casting. With some a larger spring pad isn't a option.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:39 PM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by spanks13
Valves are Ti intake and stainless exhaust.

Predictability of the power delivery is really what I'm looking for. I'd like as flat of a torque curve as possible that carries as high as possible. Smooth and consistent power up to redline, and something that will pull 5th gear to 7800rpm @ 200 mph without running out of steam. It is important to me for the engine to still be maintaining or building power at maximum rpm.

The only thing that keeps me up at night is if I'm going to overshoot the horsepower peak on accident and wind up with an engine that wants to peak at 8000 rpm. Second worry is that it won't have enough ***** at ~5600 rpm to pull away from the gear changes.
I would put the IVC at 56, EVO at 68. Run compression closet to 12.5 if you can. Overlap I would put around 24-30 degrees. So even if it peaks early it will carry. Since you are LLSR, that puts intake at 256 degrees on a 111 centerline. Exhaust at 268 on a 117 centerline. That makes 256/268-114+3. When you get lash it will act like 250/262. Honestly I would go bigger except for your stated goal of a smooth torque curve. You should make peak torque around 6000-6200 with that, so even if your shifts land at 5600, you are near peak torque, which is the best you can do for an upshift. You may actually do better to let the engine peak at 7400 and build in some extra overlap to carry past peak, which will help you land closer to peak on that upshift. In which case, cut it 113+4.
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Old 03-16-2019, 05:35 PM
  #187  
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Thanks both of you. I like the input.

Darth, I think youíre right about IVC ~56. I had pushed it to 60 thinking it would help with when itís run on 91 (e85 for racing, but will detune it to be drivable on 91), and also would keep the midrange from coming in too hard. I think I overshot it though, and thatís really what was making me worry it wouldnít pull hard enough from 5500. I think 60* IVC Iíd be having to push my shifts to 8200. Now, a 6000 stall auto likes in my drag car...thatíd be a different story.

I also am starting to like the 114 LSA vs 116. 114 is already a very wide LSA given these duration numbers. A race engine with a big single plane would tend to be more in the 108-110 range. 116 might be overcompensating.

That said, I do think I want to keep a longer exhaust duration - I believe thatíll help me bleed off some torque in the midrange that I really donít want, but as the revs climb itíll actually be more appropriate and help it carry past peak.

With the lobes Iím looking at, 258/276 114+4

IVO is 16.0 į BTDC ( - indicates ATDC)
IVC is 56.0 į ABDC
EVO is 73.0 į BBDC
EVC is 17.0 į ATDC ( - indicates BTDC)
Overlap is 33 į

Last edited by spanks13; 03-16-2019 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 03-16-2019, 07:19 PM
  #188  
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I dont think that is a bad spec at all. I tend to set EVO based on compression. So if you take EVO to 73, def want to be closer to 12.5 compression.

FWIW I run a 114 LSA also. Does great but I also run 12.3 compression. Compression helps it work better with those late IVC and early EVO
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:57 PM
  #189  
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I wonder how compression will help my cam
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Old 03-17-2019, 06:56 AM
  #190  
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Lol your cam will like 11.5 a LOT
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Old Yesterday, 12:36 AM
  #191  
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My 427 does not miss any low end tq from the sniper intake. Car drivers great yet fried the tires in 2nd from a 60 roll.
295/45/17 mt drag radials.
the 275/60mt et street pro hold from a roll and it's gone. No soft spot in tq.

that was with a hurt vearing, version 2.0 coming back soon
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Old Yesterday, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by AINT SKEERED
My 427 does not miss any low end tq from the sniper intake. Car drivers great yet fried the tires in 2nd from a 60 roll.
295/45/17 mt drag radials.
the 275/60mt et street pro hold from a roll and it's gone. No soft spot in tq.

that was with a hurt vearing, version 2.0 coming back soon
Exactly!!! You do not need to build for torque when you have cubes, unless it is going in a 5000 lb truck. They make torque even on accident
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Old Yesterday, 06:02 AM
  #193  
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Originally Posted by Darth_V8r View Post
Exactly!!! You do not need to build for torque when you have cubes, unless it is going in a 5000 lb truck. They make torque even on accident
yea but with that mentality, couldn't you just say meh 500 rwhp is enough? well yea it is but we still build to 600 and 700......i look at low and mid range power the same way......500 tq would be enough, by why not 550......
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Old Yesterday, 06:23 AM
  #194  
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Originally Posted by Floorman279
yea but with that mentality, couldn't you just say meh 500 rwhp is enough? well yea it is but we still build to 600 and 700......i look at low and mid range power the same way......500 tq would be enough, by why not 550......
That is a big distinction. It is one thing to say - I want to build to maximize midrange torque. An entirely different thing to say - I am scared to lose too much low end torque. Especially on a big engine. Gained 100 lbs of torque peak to peak going to a bigger engine from the 346.

I would be much more concerned about losing midrange in a smaller engine. Definitely understand the too much is almost enough principle.
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Old Yesterday, 07:23 AM
  #195  
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On a small cube engine that is completely different story. Bigger cubes make more torque than a small motor but a sheet metal intake also allows it to rev. Twice the fun
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Old Yesterday, 03:48 PM
  #196  
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My LLR is a 247/259 .688"/.671" 113.5+4... 416. 12:1 CR.
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Old Yesterday, 04:43 PM
  #197  
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Originally Posted by Darth_V8r View Post
That is a big distinction. It is one thing to say - I want to build to maximize midrange torque. An entirely different thing to say - I am scared to lose too much low end torque. Especially on a big ehugngine. Gained 100 lbs of torque peak to peak going to a bigger engine from the 346.

I would be much more concerned about losing midrange in a smaller engine. Definitely understand the too much is almost enough principle.
i am a little biased, I mean my motor isn't running yet, but I know the shortcomings my ls1 had with the giant cam, so trying to avoid those. I know it's goona naturally make more torque, but I also like the idea personally for me to keep the red line around 7450 for a 7400 shift, was built by a reliable source but I feel safer for longevity about keeping the rpms under 7500, since it wasn't specifically built for anything higher. So it only makes sense for me to build the low end rather than the high end, since to capitalize on the high end I should really be shifting after 7500, since peak would probably be 72-7300. I mean all the good guyss talk about shifting at least 500 past peak.

now in the future, I might get a c6 and do a 4.125 bore, 3.622 stroke sheet metal with an 8000 rpm shift, or just easy way out procharger.
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Old Yesterday, 06:52 PM
  #198  
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Got a message from Bob @ all pro, heads range from 2000 to 2200 for as cast heads Ls7 or C5r port.
Greg Good now has a cnc machine so return times should be quicker
CID Ls 7 heads cnc bare start @ 2800
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Old Yesterday, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Floorman279 View Post
i am a little biased, I mean my motor isn't running yet, but I know the shortcomings my ls1 had with the giant cam, so trying to avoid those. I know it's goona naturally make more torque, but I also like the idea personally for me to keep the red line around 7450 for a 7400 shift, was built by a reliable source but I feel safer for longevity about keeping the rpms under 7500, since it wasn't specifically built for anything higher. So it only makes sense for me to build the low end rather than the high end, since to capitalize on the high end I should really be shifting after 7500, since peak would probably be 72-7300. I mean all the good guyss talk about shifting at least 500 past peak.

now in the future, I might get a c6 and do a 4.125 bore, 3.622 stroke sheet metal with an 8000 rpm shift, or just easy way out procharger.
problem is with bigger cubes regular ls3style intakes fall off early. So you have a motor that is done at 6400 rpms. These intakes let you make power to shift at 7400which in my case was 600 above peak
mine peaked at 6800 and flat lined
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Old Yesterday, 07:58 PM
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im doing ls7 heads with the ported msd.......just starting out with a stock ls7 since they are dirt and can save 1500 that i can swap out later......
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