Rumors, Lies, and Gossip: Morel Knockoffs
04-05-2019, 01:45 PM
#41
Can use an OEM oil pump with the Johnsons and they don't break. If I recall the COPO Camaros are required to use an OEM style oil pump and they picked the Johnson lifters to run in that engine to 8000RPM. So for a street/strip engine with a stock style pump the Johnsons work great and don't require the expense of an external pump, WIN WIN! Plus comparing the NASCAR stuff to bottom shelf drop-ins is kind of laughable in its own regard but you do what you have to.
04-05-2019, 04:34 PM
#44
Correct. Any of the street series Morels with .700" wheels are a casting that has been machined. All of the .750" wheel stuff is machined from bar stock. What most don't know is that Gear Co has made parts for the OEM's for 75 years. These guys are use to making a million of something that are all correct.
I had David Lewis in here yesterday from Robert Yates Racing. They build the NASCAR LS Spec engine for several series. They have spent millions of dollars developing this platform to get it where it is today. The info we got yesterday on the do's and don'ts were unbelievable. I will share that if your building a high rpm LS engine you SHOULD NOT USE THE OEM OIL PUMP OR AFTERMARKET PUMP BECAUSE OF INHERENT CAVITATION WITH THIS STYLE PUMP. They recommend at least a single stage external pump. What do air bubbles do to hydraulic systems? Cause them not to function properly. What is a burnout.....sustained high rpm burnout that is creating cavitation in the system.
I had David Lewis in here yesterday from Robert Yates Racing. They build the NASCAR LS Spec engine for several series. They have spent millions of dollars developing this platform to get it where it is today. The info we got yesterday on the do's and don'ts were unbelievable. I will share that if your building a high rpm LS engine you SHOULD NOT USE THE OEM OIL PUMP OR AFTERMARKET PUMP BECAUSE OF INHERENT CAVITATION WITH THIS STYLE PUMP. They recommend at least a single stage external pump. What do air bubbles do to hydraulic systems? Cause them not to function properly. What is a burnout.....sustained high rpm burnout that is creating cavitation in the system.
04-05-2019, 04:42 PM
#45
I think the real question is what rpm.. Ive seen some nasty stuff with wetsump and drysump crank driven pumps that have lived.
And gm did have a vane style pump iirc. It may have been on the hybrid 6.0s. Ill have to check that out.
I know the LT stuff loses presssure in the higher rpms but it works just like a trans pump so the main issue there is the vane ring deflection or bypass spring.
Time to call up Trans Go for some NoYoYo hardened steel pump rings ;-)
And gm did have a vane style pump iirc. It may have been on the hybrid 6.0s. Ill have to check that out.
I know the LT stuff loses presssure in the higher rpms but it works just like a trans pump so the main issue there is the vane ring deflection or bypass spring.
Time to call up Trans Go for some NoYoYo hardened steel pump rings ;-)
04-05-2019, 05:25 PM
#46
Correct. Any of the street series Morels with .700" wheels are a casting that has been machined. All of the .750" wheel stuff is machined from bar stock. What most don't know is that Gear Co has made parts for the OEM's for 75 years. These guys are use to making a million of something that are all correct.
04-06-2019, 08:51 AM
#47
I think the real question is what rpm.. Ive seen some nasty stuff with wetsump and drysump crank driven pumps that have lived.
And gm did have a vane style pump iirc. It may have been on the hybrid 6.0s. Ill have to check that out.
I know the LT stuff loses presssure in the higher rpms but it works just like a trans pump so the main issue there is the vane ring deflection or bypass spring.
Time to call up Trans Go for some NoYoYo hardened steel pump rings ;-)
And gm did have a vane style pump iirc. It may have been on the hybrid 6.0s. Ill have to check that out.
I know the LT stuff loses presssure in the higher rpms but it works just like a trans pump so the main issue there is the vane ring deflection or bypass spring.
Time to call up Trans Go for some NoYoYo hardened steel pump rings ;-)
04-06-2019, 08:55 AM
#48
No matter if it is a street series lifter going in a weekend ground pounder or a set going to Hendrick Motorsports for a Cup engine, same QC department. Again the "Data" shows there is minimal issue with the lifters. The issues are mostly ego driven. Again you can't call up GM and buy direct. They have a dealer network. Morel has supported the OEM auto industry for decades. They have a dealer network.
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G Atsma (03-31-2023)
04-06-2019, 12:02 PM
#49
TECH Addict
Thread Starter
I'm surprised this thread has so many responses.
I'm glad I started this and read everyone's take on it.
Since the beginning of this thread I have done a lot of research also.
My thoughts on Morel are more positive than what they were originally.
However, I ended up purchasing a set of the all new Isky HPX silver series hydraulic lifters which are short travel, lighter weight and can rev to 7500rpm.
The most important feature for me is that they are run quiet and don't tick, and don't require light oil to lubricate properly.
Isky said you can run up to a 20w 50 oil with no issues.
Hardly anyone has used these as they have only been out for a bit over a year. I can't find much information in the forums about anyone using them yet.
I was also speaking to my tuner about lifters.
He recently fitted a set of Johnson Lifters to a stroker engine and the tie bars were hitting the block.
After much research these were Johnson knock offs that the customer had purchased and given to him.
The knock off's are notorious for coming up short.
I found this out for myself and also from Isky themselves when I called them up and queried my findings.
The authentic Johnson Lifters company is in Taylor Michigan.
It is with Johnson that Isky teamed up to build these new HPX lifters too.
I had a look at their catalogue and according to Isky these are the best hydraulic roller lifters in the world with the most advanced design.
Might be marketing fluff but I wouldn't know how to compare them to others.
Has anyone tried those new HPX lifters?
If so what are your thoughts?
I'm glad I started this and read everyone's take on it.
Since the beginning of this thread I have done a lot of research also.
My thoughts on Morel are more positive than what they were originally.
However, I ended up purchasing a set of the all new Isky HPX silver series hydraulic lifters which are short travel, lighter weight and can rev to 7500rpm.
The most important feature for me is that they are run quiet and don't tick, and don't require light oil to lubricate properly.
Isky said you can run up to a 20w 50 oil with no issues.
Hardly anyone has used these as they have only been out for a bit over a year. I can't find much information in the forums about anyone using them yet.
I was also speaking to my tuner about lifters.
He recently fitted a set of Johnson Lifters to a stroker engine and the tie bars were hitting the block.
After much research these were Johnson knock offs that the customer had purchased and given to him.
The knock off's are notorious for coming up short.
I found this out for myself and also from Isky themselves when I called them up and queried my findings.
The authentic Johnson Lifters company is in Taylor Michigan.
It is with Johnson that Isky teamed up to build these new HPX lifters too.
I had a look at their catalogue and according to Isky these are the best hydraulic roller lifters in the world with the most advanced design.
Might be marketing fluff but I wouldn't know how to compare them to others.
Has anyone tried those new HPX lifters?
If so what are your thoughts?
04-06-2019, 12:17 PM
#50
TECH Addict
Thread Starter
After reading a lot of the responses, I would definitely use the morel lifters again.
So this clarifies those other two companies I was dealing with were just talking **** about Morel.
It makes sense that they could not buy directly and probably got pissed off and started hating.
I forgot to mention that one of the vendors was replacing the morels with new lifters called GS.
Has anybody heard of these and are they any good?
So this clarifies those other two companies I was dealing with were just talking **** about Morel.
It makes sense that they could not buy directly and probably got pissed off and started hating.
I forgot to mention that one of the vendors was replacing the morels with new lifters called GS.
Has anybody heard of these and are they any good?
03-31-2023, 06:16 AM
#51
A little bit of an old thread but I will add another log to the fire.
Purchased a set of Summit Racing branded Morel 7717 drop in lifters (unknown manufacture date). Installed in my Eforce LS3 GS a year ago along with a stock GM ZR1 cam. By no means an extreme build.
Nearly exactly one year later, I have a lifter bearing on one of these Morel's that is going out. Squeaking/squealing when hitting about 2500 RPM's. Eliminated all other possible causes.
I am putting in a set of Johnson 2110R's.
Maybe I got a bad set from Morel. Maybe I got a knock off set. Or maybe the rumors are true and Morel is using a Chinese supplier to meet demand. Regardless, I won't ever use Morel's again.
Purchased a set of Summit Racing branded Morel 7717 drop in lifters (unknown manufacture date). Installed in my Eforce LS3 GS a year ago along with a stock GM ZR1 cam. By no means an extreme build.
Nearly exactly one year later, I have a lifter bearing on one of these Morel's that is going out. Squeaking/squealing when hitting about 2500 RPM's. Eliminated all other possible causes.
I am putting in a set of Johnson 2110R's.
Maybe I got a bad set from Morel. Maybe I got a knock off set. Or maybe the rumors are true and Morel is using a Chinese supplier to meet demand. Regardless, I won't ever use Morel's again.
The following 2 users liked this post by 140K_GXP:
DualQuadDave (04-01-2023), G Atsma (03-31-2023)
03-31-2023, 04:01 PM
#52
A little bit of an old thread but I will add another log to the fire.
Purchased a set of Summit Racing branded Morel 7717 drop in lifters (unknown manufacture date). Installed in my Eforce LS3 GS a year ago along with a stock GM ZR1 cam. By no means an extreme build.
Nearly exactly one year later, I have a lifter bearing on one of these Morel's that is going out. Squeaking/squealing when hitting about 2500 RPM's. Eliminated all other possible causes.
I am putting in a set of Johnson 2110R's.
Maybe I got a bad set from Morel. Maybe I got a knock off set. Or maybe the rumors are true and Morel is using a Chinese supplier to meet demand. Regardless, I won't ever use Morel's again.
Purchased a set of Summit Racing branded Morel 7717 drop in lifters (unknown manufacture date). Installed in my Eforce LS3 GS a year ago along with a stock GM ZR1 cam. By no means an extreme build.
Nearly exactly one year later, I have a lifter bearing on one of these Morel's that is going out. Squeaking/squealing when hitting about 2500 RPM's. Eliminated all other possible causes.
I am putting in a set of Johnson 2110R's.
Maybe I got a bad set from Morel. Maybe I got a knock off set. Or maybe the rumors are true and Morel is using a Chinese supplier to meet demand. Regardless, I won't ever use Morel's again.
A year of running them then a failure could be one of many issues not even attributable to the lifter itself though.
The following users liked this post:
G Atsma (03-31-2023)
04-01-2023, 05:41 AM
#53
A little bit of an old thread but I will add another log to the fire.
Purchased a set of Summit Racing branded Morel 7717 drop in lifters (unknown manufacture date). Installed in my Eforce LS3 GS a year ago along with a stock GM ZR1 cam. By no means an extreme build.
Nearly exactly one year later, I have a lifter bearing on one of these Morel's that is going out. Squeaking/squealing when hitting about 2500 RPM's. Eliminated all other possible causes.
I am putting in a set of Johnson 2110R's.
Maybe I got a bad set from Morel. Maybe I got a knock off set. Or maybe the rumors are true and Morel is using a Chinese supplier to meet demand. Regardless, I won't ever use Morel's again.
Purchased a set of Summit Racing branded Morel 7717 drop in lifters (unknown manufacture date). Installed in my Eforce LS3 GS a year ago along with a stock GM ZR1 cam. By no means an extreme build.
Nearly exactly one year later, I have a lifter bearing on one of these Morel's that is going out. Squeaking/squealing when hitting about 2500 RPM's. Eliminated all other possible causes.
I am putting in a set of Johnson 2110R's.
Maybe I got a bad set from Morel. Maybe I got a knock off set. Or maybe the rumors are true and Morel is using a Chinese supplier to meet demand. Regardless, I won't ever use Morel's again.
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DualQuadDave (04-01-2023), hiltsy855 (04-01-2023)
04-01-2023, 10:01 AM
#54
ModSquad
iTrader: (6)
Agreed. 140k, cut your oil filter open. If it’s squealing, you’ve got metal in the filter. Hopefully it’s a front accessory bearing or something out there.
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MySons68C20 (04-02-2023)
04-10-2023, 02:03 PM
#55
Summit's I know with 100% certainty are real Morels. I can also state that the data on returns of the Morel 7717 shipped in the last 3 years...thousands of sets, the issues are under 2%. For the automotive performance engine aftermarket...that is excellent.
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G Atsma (04-10-2023)
04-13-2023, 01:36 PM
#56
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
For searrch purposes, i think the title of this thread should be changed. Just like Google Page 2 doesn't exist, everyone searching would just see the title and draw their own conclusions.
Mr Straub in with the facts! But dont tell the turbo guys 20/50 isnt cool ;-)
Ive used and sold nearly all the styles of morel and had 0 issue. Ive heard some people set the reg cast body style light on the preload and some heavy and still no issue.
I think the largest issue is lack of actual info on them on one site. Like the johncallies site. I mean you get some info and actual pictures but no preload info which is what most have issue with. Im sure Straub loses count of the lifter preload calls he gets weekly.
Some people, and not just suppliers/vendors, but actual customers like to order directly from a company. They seriously get upset over not being able to do it and wont purchase. Thats understandable but also kind of narrowminded.
The knock offs are getting ridiculous. I know Johnson now is lasering their stuff so maybe thats a trend for every company now, who knows.
If you saw the difference in an eaton body and a delphi body for a lifter, you'd know the difference immediately. It appears that morel uses that same body for their 5315/6504 but im not saying thats true, just my observation.
I think the bigger underlying reason is marketing, yotube, and virality.
Mr Straub in with the facts! But dont tell the turbo guys 20/50 isnt cool ;-)
Ive used and sold nearly all the styles of morel and had 0 issue. Ive heard some people set the reg cast body style light on the preload and some heavy and still no issue.
I think the largest issue is lack of actual info on them on one site. Like the johncallies site. I mean you get some info and actual pictures but no preload info which is what most have issue with. Im sure Straub loses count of the lifter preload calls he gets weekly.
Some people, and not just suppliers/vendors, but actual customers like to order directly from a company. They seriously get upset over not being able to do it and wont purchase. Thats understandable but also kind of narrowminded.
The knock offs are getting ridiculous. I know Johnson now is lasering their stuff so maybe thats a trend for every company now, who knows.
If you saw the difference in an eaton body and a delphi body for a lifter, you'd know the difference immediately. It appears that morel uses that same body for their 5315/6504 but im not saying thats true, just my observation.
I think the bigger underlying reason is marketing, yotube, and virality.
The following 2 users liked this post by grinder11:
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04-13-2023, 01:56 PM
#57
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
I think the real question is what rpm.. Ive seen some nasty stuff with wetsump and drysump crank driven pumps that have lived.
And gm did have a vane style pump iirc. It may have been on the hybrid 6.0s. Ill have to check that out.
I know the LT stuff loses presssure in the higher rpms but it works just like a trans pump so the main issue there is the vane ring deflection or bypass spring.
Time to call up Trans Go for some NoYoYo hardened steel pump rings ;-)
And gm did have a vane style pump iirc. It may have been on the hybrid 6.0s. Ill have to check that out.
I know the LT stuff loses presssure in the higher rpms but it works just like a trans pump so the main issue there is the vane ring deflection or bypass spring.
Time to call up Trans Go for some NoYoYo hardened steel pump rings ;-)
04-15-2023, 10:18 AM
#59
TECH Senior Member
I have a feeling he meant 18 gallons per minute, most of which is cycled a few times within that minute... jus' sayin'....
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04-16-2023, 11:41 AM
#60
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
Thanks, Gary. Left out the minute!! That means your, and my info is "up to the minute accurate. But, the info is accurate. Dart sez that's WAY too much oil flying around inside the engine. I can't argue that.....
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G Atsma (04-16-2023)