Daily Driver 434 - Cathedral heads or LS7 heads?
09-22-2020, 05:19 AM
#21
Fantastic list. Every one of those cars are max effort and huge money to get there. Most likely spinning them to crazy rpm's, and have to rebuild every 50 passes. Probably pushing or pulling them to the starting line and then back to the pits. You think any of them drive those cars on the street. Doubtful. We drive ours on the street quite often and would gap every one of them at the track with spray. Just sayin.
Not sure why you guys are so hung up on NA. With all the budget most everyone wants. Its much cheaper to build a nitrous motor for the street, and just spray it to the level you want. Best of both worlds. On the street you most likely never will spray it anyway if your over 700hp on motor to start with. Most will never get that much to hook on the street anyway. Hell Kenny in the Drag Race section is running low 7's in his single turbo cathedral motor car, and he takes his wife to dinner in it. Drives it anywhere he wants for that matter. Plus thats only 25 cars. Like i have said. Yes they are out there, but still. Few and far between.
Not sure why you guys are so hung up on NA. With all the budget most everyone wants. Its much cheaper to build a nitrous motor for the street, and just spray it to the level you want. Best of both worlds. On the street you most likely never will spray it anyway if your over 700hp on motor to start with. Most will never get that much to hook on the street anyway. Hell Kenny in the Drag Race section is running low 7's in his single turbo cathedral motor car, and he takes his wife to dinner in it. Drives it anywhere he wants for that matter. Plus thats only 25 cars. Like i have said. Yes they are out there, but still. Few and far between.
09-22-2020, 06:46 AM
#22
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Not at all. I just don't like the fact that people come on a site to get honest info and all they get is opinions with no validity, and are far from accurate. Sorry if I offended you in any way. Not my intention at all. I just want everyone that reads this to know, there is always 2 sides to every coin. Just because the band wagon says so doesn't mean its true.
What are your thoughts on the subject?
What are your thoughts on the subject?
vehicle weight
gear
tranny
drivetrain losses, ie clutch, 9” vs 12 bolt, etc
camshaft...don’t get me started
intake setup
exhaust setup
rear tire
to name a few. No way to compare a cathedral headed build to an LS7 build and come to a factual determination based on the few above items I’ve listed, and say my street car is quicker than your street car. Bring dyno’s into the picture, and unless your dynoing both cars on the same dyno on the same day back to back, there’s room for error. So take them to a track...one guy can’t launch a car to save his life, and the other guy has been racing for a decade...see what I’m getting at? And I’m talking about N/A builds. Boost? Variables list grows bigger.
This discussion is silly, yet every 6 months someone asks the question. I used to race circle track asphalt late models. Biggest “monkey see, monkey do” show on earth. A certain chassis wins two in a row, and the entire top 10 would change chassis’s. Cost them $30k to do it, same week. I have been around long enough to know that you can make ANY chassis fast, just takes the right combination. No guessing, just use the data you’ve put together and build on it. Now, relate this useless jabber I just said to the cathedral/LS7 discussion. It’s all about the combination.
Me? I like LS7’s because I like to party at 7k rpm. Street manners aren’t too shabby either....
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rkupon1 (09-22-2020)
09-22-2020, 07:02 AM
#23
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TOP 25 Fastest All Time N/A Any Cubic Inch
STOCK CHASSIS / STOCK SUSPENSION CARS
ET @ MPH--Cu.In.--Name--Raceweight--Solid or Hydraulic--Cylinder heads
1) 8.12 @ 170.08-- 427in-- Judson/SAM-- 3130#-- Solid-- C5R
2) 8.14 @ 166.xx-- LME 446in-- Joe/Amber-- 2852#- Solid-- Edelbrock Canted LSR
3) 8.29 @ 164.49-- 440in-- JBM-- 3290#-- solid-- Edelbrock Canted Valve
4) 8.535@162.61-- 418in-- DBN-- 2900#-- Solid-- MOZEZ
5) 8.60 @ 158.41-- 468in--Stripes1987--3160#--Solid--MOZEZ
6) 8.61 @ 157-- 427in-- Land down under ls1--3100#--Solid--C5R (Former Matt346ls1 Car)
7) 8.74 @ 155-- 427in-- Matt346ls1--3125#-- Solid-- C5R
8) 8.74 @ 154.xx-- 427in-- TNTAddict-- 2952#-- Solid-- LS7 (Ported by MTI)
9) 8.805 @ 156.25--425in--Neal Owens--3500#--Solid--LS7
10) 8.92 @ 150.50-- 430in-- Coleman Roddy-- 3070#-- Hyd-- T/F Cathedral
11) 8.95 @ 149.92-- 4xxin-- Camnhawk-- 3100#-- Solid-- C5R (1ST N/A LS1 IN THE 8's)
12) 8.96 @ 154-- 460in--ATVracr--3100#--Solid--MOZEZ
13) 9.07 @ 149.85--447in-- Mikey--3200# Solid--All Pro LSW
14) 9.09 @ 150.xx-- 460in-- Firehawk441-- 3040#-- Solid--MOZEZ
15) 9.18 @ 148.xx--431in--RayZO6--3200#--Solid--LS7
16) 9.23 @148.27-- 418in-- Revlimiter-- 3250#-- Solid-- ET canted valve
17) 9.27 @ 145.xx-- 427in-- RUQWIKR-- 3100#-- Hyd-- LS7
18) 9.39 @ 141-- 445in-- TXCAMSS-- 3110#-- Hyd-- Cathedral
19) 9.432 @ 140.69 -- 454in. -- 1cdub -- 3274# -- Hyd -- L92
20) 9.47 @ 140-- 427in-- RUQWIKR-- 3130#-- Hyd-- Cathedral
21) 9.504 @ 141.06-- 427in-- LTZSS-- 3408#-- Solid-- Square
22) 9.505 @ 143.31-- 427in-- AshWS6-- 3220#-- Hyd-- Square
23) 9.56 @ 139.9-- 421in-- TomTheRoofer-- Solid-- Cathedral
24) 9.532 @ 145.1-- 427in-- redvette1077-- 3015lb-- solid-- LS7
25) 9.575 @ 140.48-- 403in-- Quick Time-- 2975#--Solid--ETP 225
STOCK CHASSIS / STOCK SUSPENSION CARS
ET @ MPH--Cu.In.--Name--Raceweight--Solid or Hydraulic--Cylinder heads
1) 8.12 @ 170.08-- 427in-- Judson/SAM-- 3130#-- Solid-- C5R
2) 8.14 @ 166.xx-- LME 446in-- Joe/Amber-- 2852#- Solid-- Edelbrock Canted LSR
3) 8.29 @ 164.49-- 440in-- JBM-- 3290#-- solid-- Edelbrock Canted Valve
4) 8.535@162.61-- 418in-- DBN-- 2900#-- Solid-- MOZEZ
5) 8.60 @ 158.41-- 468in--Stripes1987--3160#--Solid--MOZEZ
6) 8.61 @ 157-- 427in-- Land down under ls1--3100#--Solid--C5R (Former Matt346ls1 Car)
7) 8.74 @ 155-- 427in-- Matt346ls1--3125#-- Solid-- C5R
8) 8.74 @ 154.xx-- 427in-- TNTAddict-- 2952#-- Solid-- LS7 (Ported by MTI)
9) 8.805 @ 156.25--425in--Neal Owens--3500#--Solid--LS7
10) 8.92 @ 150.50-- 430in-- Coleman Roddy-- 3070#-- Hyd-- T/F Cathedral
11) 8.95 @ 149.92-- 4xxin-- Camnhawk-- 3100#-- Solid-- C5R (1ST N/A LS1 IN THE 8's)
12) 8.96 @ 154-- 460in--ATVracr--3100#--Solid--MOZEZ
13) 9.07 @ 149.85--447in-- Mikey--3200# Solid--All Pro LSW
14) 9.09 @ 150.xx-- 460in-- Firehawk441-- 3040#-- Solid--MOZEZ
15) 9.18 @ 148.xx--431in--RayZO6--3200#--Solid--LS7
16) 9.23 @148.27-- 418in-- Revlimiter-- 3250#-- Solid-- ET canted valve
17) 9.27 @ 145.xx-- 427in-- RUQWIKR-- 3100#-- Hyd-- LS7
18) 9.39 @ 141-- 445in-- TXCAMSS-- 3110#-- Hyd-- Cathedral
19) 9.432 @ 140.69 -- 454in. -- 1cdub -- 3274# -- Hyd -- L92
20) 9.47 @ 140-- 427in-- RUQWIKR-- 3130#-- Hyd-- Cathedral
21) 9.504 @ 141.06-- 427in-- LTZSS-- 3408#-- Solid-- Square
22) 9.505 @ 143.31-- 427in-- AshWS6-- 3220#-- Hyd-- Square
23) 9.56 @ 139.9-- 421in-- TomTheRoofer-- Solid-- Cathedral
24) 9.532 @ 145.1-- 427in-- redvette1077-- 3015lb-- solid-- LS7
25) 9.575 @ 140.48-- 403in-- Quick Time-- 2975#--Solid--ETP 225
09-22-2020, 07:07 AM
#24
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Yes it is at the flywheel. Best part is it was only spun to 7000 to make those numbers. After opening the intake adapters all the way up. Our car went .35 faster on motor only. That has to be worth a few more ponies and a few more pnds of torque. The 1/8th is the closest to the street.
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rkupon1 (09-22-2020)
09-22-2020, 07:46 AM
#25
The following 2 users liked this post by ddnspider:
Che70velle (09-22-2020), G Atsma (09-22-2020)
09-22-2020, 07:51 AM
#27
Fantastic list. Every one of those cars are max effort and huge money to get there. Most likely spinning them to crazy rpm's, and have to rebuild every 50 passes. Probably pushing or pulling them to the starting line and then back to the pits. You think any of them drive those cars on the street. Doubtful. We drive ours on the street quite often and would gap every one of them at the track with spray. Just sayin.
Not sure why you guys are so hung up on NA. With all the budget most everyone wants. Its much cheaper to build a nitrous motor for the street, and just spray it to the level you want. Best of both worlds. On the street you most likely never will spray it anyway if your over 700hp on motor to start with. Most will never get that much to hook on the street anyway. Hell Kenny in the Drag Race section is running low 7's in his single turbo cathedral motor car, and he takes his wife to dinner in it. Drives it anywhere he wants for that matter. Plus thats only 25 cars. Like i have said. Yes they are out there, but still. Few and far between.
Not sure why you guys are so hung up on NA. With all the budget most everyone wants. Its much cheaper to build a nitrous motor for the street, and just spray it to the level you want. Best of both worlds. On the street you most likely never will spray it anyway if your over 700hp on motor to start with. Most will never get that much to hook on the street anyway. Hell Kenny in the Drag Race section is running low 7's in his single turbo cathedral motor car, and he takes his wife to dinner in it. Drives it anywhere he wants for that matter. Plus thats only 25 cars. Like i have said. Yes they are out there, but still. Few and far between.
Big $ involved in those ls7 setups.
The cathedral Ls7 debate has been done so many times but for my driving style the cathedral heads are the hot ticket for me.
I never got them because they are the fastest head out there.
Having a heavy car these will get me out of the hole quicker too.
They are still fast as hell anyway so I am happy.
09-22-2020, 09:22 AM
#28
My thoughts? Like asking what nail polish looks good on a chic. Depends. Way too many variables to have a factual discussion about...
vehicle weight
gear
tranny
drivetrain losses, ie clutch, 9” vs 12 bolt, etc
camshaft...don’t get me started
intake setup
exhaust setup
rear tire
to name a few. No way to compare a cathedral headed build to an LS7 build and come to a factual determination based on the few above items I’ve listed, and say my street car is quicker than your street car. Bring dyno’s into the picture, and unless your dynoing both cars on the same dyno on the same day back to back, there’s room for error. So take them to a track...one guy can’t launch a car to save his life, and the other guy has been racing for a decade...see what I’m getting at? And I’m talking about N/A builds. Boost? Variables list grows bigger.
This discussion is silly, yet every 6 months someone asks the question. I used to race circle track asphalt late models. Biggest “monkey see, monkey do” show on earth. A certain chassis wins two in a row, and the entire top 10 would change chassis’s. Cost them $30k to do it, same week. I have been around long enough to know that you can make ANY chassis fast, just takes the right combination. No guessing, just use the data you’ve put together and build on it. Now, relate this useless jabber I just said to the cathedral/LS7 discussion. It’s all about the combination.
Me? I like LS7’s because I like to party at 7k rpm. Street manners aren’t too shabby either....
vehicle weight
gear
tranny
drivetrain losses, ie clutch, 9” vs 12 bolt, etc
camshaft...don’t get me started
intake setup
exhaust setup
rear tire
to name a few. No way to compare a cathedral headed build to an LS7 build and come to a factual determination based on the few above items I’ve listed, and say my street car is quicker than your street car. Bring dyno’s into the picture, and unless your dynoing both cars on the same dyno on the same day back to back, there’s room for error. So take them to a track...one guy can’t launch a car to save his life, and the other guy has been racing for a decade...see what I’m getting at? And I’m talking about N/A builds. Boost? Variables list grows bigger.
This discussion is silly, yet every 6 months someone asks the question. I used to race circle track asphalt late models. Biggest “monkey see, monkey do” show on earth. A certain chassis wins two in a row, and the entire top 10 would change chassis’s. Cost them $30k to do it, same week. I have been around long enough to know that you can make ANY chassis fast, just takes the right combination. No guessing, just use the data you’ve put together and build on it. Now, relate this useless jabber I just said to the cathedral/LS7 discussion. It’s all about the combination.
Me? I like LS7’s because I like to party at 7k rpm. Street manners aren’t too shabby either....
I agree Mr T.
Big $ involved in those ls7 setups.
The cathedral Ls7 debate has been done so many times but for my driving style the cathedral heads are the hot ticket for me.
I never got them because they are the fastest head out there.
Having a heavy car these will get me out of the hole quicker too.
They are still fast as hell anyway so I am happy.
Big $ involved in those ls7 setups.
The cathedral Ls7 debate has been done so many times but for my driving style the cathedral heads are the hot ticket for me.
I never got them because they are the fastest head out there.
Having a heavy car these will get me out of the hole quicker too.
They are still fast as hell anyway so I am happy.
I just wish guys would just agree that a cathedral can make as much power as anything else when built right. I'm not talking about max effort either. None of the motors we have are even close to it. But just like what Che70velle said. The rest of the combo is crucial to get it to run to its potential, and thats a fact. We have been beating ourselves up over loosing weight because we are 3350 race weight. But worried about doing so because our car works so good. Freakin thing is like its on a set of rails going down through there, and hooks amazingly good too. I love helping guys getting their cars to perform as good as possible. Its a great sense of accomplishment when you see them just kill it going down the track. Then they come back to the pit just beaming with happiness. Pretty good feeling to say the least.
All the guys with these big HP motors need to quit screwing around on the street and go to the track for racing, before they kill more people as well as themselves. You guys will meet many great people and make some great friends that have the same passion. Most everyone will drop everything to help you out if your in need. It really is a great place to be. We drive ours on the street but never race there. I would never forgive myself if I hurt someone. After seeing what I have seen. **** can go south so quick its crazy. Watching some of the videos spinning at 70+ mph can get bad so fast you will never be able to recover.Worst part is most don't even have any safety equipment in their cars to save weight. Really is pretty insane.
09-22-2020, 09:42 AM
#29
Having a debate with a friend, and we were talking about what would be the best option for heads on a big CID resleeved LS block that would be a 99% daily driver. I said LS7 style heads because the LS7 design is supposed to be a significant improvement, but he said that the 245cc cathedral would be better for a car the spends 99% of the time under 5k RPMs, because the cathedral heads perform better under 5K RPMs.
Is that true? Would cathedral heads perform better under 5k RPMs...assuming all other aspects are identical (obviously intake would be different, but both LSXR 102)?
Is that true? Would cathedral heads perform better under 5k RPMs...assuming all other aspects are identical (obviously intake would be different, but both LSXR 102)?
Speaking from experience, my street car has a 440ci LS with OEM cathedral heads on it and I feel it works very well for it's intended purpose. Even with the T56 in second gear, anything over 4000 RPM is a speeding ticket, so the engine rarely sees RPM above that. It's a fun car to drive and I'd do it over again in a heartbeat.
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G Atsma (09-22-2020)
09-22-2020, 09:58 AM
#31
Odd Question, but to really **** someone off, have you ever swapped cars on them? In other words, you run their car, they run yours, and you beat them again? I've seen it done. I'm wondering if you're a tremendous driver. To say it this way, you got 700 at the flywheel, I got 690 to the ground. And at 7K rpms to boot. But I'm not that good a driver, so you might beat me. Then we swap cars, and you would likely beat me again.
If you ever need anything I can help you with, I would be very happy to help.
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G Atsma (09-22-2020)
09-22-2020, 10:03 AM
#32
[QUOTE=FCar2000TA;20289996]So, Cliff's Notes:
For NA or NO2 427+CID = big cathedral heads
For boosted 427+CID = LS7 heads[/QUOTE
Boost is boost. Dosen't matter if its NOS, Turbo, or super charged. The cathedrals work great.
For NA or NO2 427+CID = big cathedral heads
For boosted 427+CID = LS7 heads[/QUOTE
Boost is boost. Dosen't matter if its NOS, Turbo, or super charged. The cathedrals work great.
09-22-2020, 10:03 AM
#33
TECH Senior Member
09-22-2020, 10:11 AM
#34
[QUOTE=TTur1996;20290002] Doesn't boost work better with the cathedral heads because of the more efficient exhaust port?
09-22-2020, 10:16 AM
#35
I agree with your friend. Generally speaking, the cathedral ports do have a tendency to make more power in the lower RPM range, but it is usually because the cathedral ports are smaller (ie cross section). This means that at slower engine speeds, the air is moving faster, filling the cylinder better, and producing more torque and horsepower as a result. Any intake port can handle only so much airspeed before bad things happen and the torque starts to fall off though, so a smaller port will tend to reach that max airspeed sooner and power will fall off sooner as a result. That isn't even considering the effects of the intake and exhaust manifolds, or the camshaft.
Speaking from experience, my street car has a 440ci LS with OEM cathedral heads on it and I feel it works very well for it's intended purpose. Even with the T56 in second gear, anything over 4000 RPM is a speeding ticket, so the engine rarely sees RPM above that. It's a fun car to drive and I'd do it over again in a heartbeat.
Speaking from experience, my street car has a 440ci LS with OEM cathedral heads on it and I feel it works very well for it's intended purpose. Even with the T56 in second gear, anything over 4000 RPM is a speeding ticket, so the engine rarely sees RPM above that. It's a fun car to drive and I'd do it over again in a heartbeat.
The useable rpm range you will be jn is what you aim for when building an engine.
Where is it going to live mostly?
Yours lives on the street so you will be off idle to 4000rpm the majority of the time by far.
Same with mine also.
Who is going to go past 7000rpm on a street engine anyway?
You will be at crazy speeds by then.
Sounds like we both have similar reasoning for going the direction we chose.
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KCS (09-22-2020)
09-22-2020, 10:19 AM
#37
TECH Senior Member
[QUOTE=ddnspider;20290012]Richard Holdener has proven this repeatedly.
09-22-2020, 10:22 AM
#38
No way I would do that. Several have asked me to see what their cars can really do and I always say the same thing. I will help you all I can. Making passes is the only way to get good. As good as our car goes down through there I would never let anyone drive our car. I have let a few ride with when they allow it to give pointers. we have all the same safety equipment on the pass side just like the drivers. Might beat you. NOS says otherwise. Lol But I do wish you the best. I have never messed with a stick. Not sure if the setup would be the same. I'm a TH400 man. As far as im concerned there is no substitute. Now if your crazy light with crazy power. The glide would be the way to go. But I will stick with the 400. Pretty much bullet proof if built right. One other insane thing is most don't have a blanket or SFI case on their trans and bell. That has ripped feet and legs off many, and killed quite a few as well. Worst thing you can do is start a burn out in first gear. You always start in second just getting them spinning and go to third quick. I have no idea about the stick cars.
If you ever need anything I can help you with, I would be very happy to help.
If you ever need anything I can help you with, I would be very happy to help.
Darth can be second on the list.
09-22-2020, 10:24 AM
#39
[QUOTE=ddnspider;20290012] I wonder though which would be faster with similar power level.