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GM Australia claim LS3 Engine noise 'Normal' by design and no damage
Sorry for troubling you but I have no options to date but seek further opinion from people with experience in LS3 engine problems - likely no-one in Australia knows LS3 engines better.
Is what I am experiencing typical of how customers under manufacturer's Warranty are treated in the US?
Please see the video and provide your opinions if the noises heard and comments describe an acceptable LS3 engine (assembled as complete engines in Australian Built Holden VF2 vehicles 2016-2017 before vehicle production ended).
How GM 'investigate (not) and fix serious and likely expensive Warranty problems (not) in Australia does reflect badly on GM.com the parent company of GM Australia. Please read GM Australia's 30 April 2021 letter attached (alleged approved by top management) then draw your own conclusions about the culture, the impact on my engine's longevity and if what you hear from an LS3 at 24,000 miles is, as claimed by GM Australia, a characteristic of its design, normal and does not cause any damage (short or long term). And please note it was the Dealer following an overnight check that identified Piston Slap that required an engine replacement and GM Australia that without inspecting the vehicle identified 'minor lifter noise that disappears as soon as oil circulates' ( Untrue, as I stop recording between 1-2 minutes and the noise had not stopped - dealer said oil pressure was OK). The battle down under continues and I need help desperately otherwise likely overridden by GM Australia self-interest/opinion when challenged in a Court. GM Australia's final response is included in this Australian post below - forcing me drive my car further, and to seek high costs re testing for a Court to decide acceptability under our Australian Consumer Laws. I appreciate your opinions and guidance to what is causing this noise and the current and future damage likely caused. I am concerned a half fix is likely to be offered before the Court hearing after I spend all this effort, costs and stress.
That’s severe IMO. TOYOTA has the same problem. I think Toyota’s problem is linked to excessive mileage prior to the very 1st oil change. I’ve had the Toyota dealer recommend the first LOF at 8K miles. WTF lol. I’ve had 3 or 4 oil changes by then with a new purchase. I’ve never had the cold knock on any Toyota I’ve owned since new.
I had a 08 Monte SS since new that had a minor cold knock I knew GM would never fix, so I traded it and jumped ship to Toyota for daily rides.
I would try to get it fixed via court, but this kind of claim denial is common. If the court case ultimately fails, I’d run either full synthetic oil in a cold climate(states) or Valvoline VR1 or similar oil with high additive package in warm climates.
Once that gets too loud to deal with, have the bores honed and go with 4032 pistons or a good 2618 forging that’s coated. It is what it is at that point.
GM Australia dismissed the noise as alleged insignificant and by 'design'. Toyota in Australia has in most a good name. This LS3 had dealer services with GM Dexos 5W30 synthetic rated oil to date at 925 km, 6290 km, 13012 km, 21038 km 25182 km and 30532 km - currently 38507 km and booked in for its 90,000 km service. Our climate here is subtropical averaging around 25-32 degrees Celsius (75 F), down to 13C (55 F) at night so cold is not an issue (I warm it is carefully with gentle driving). I expected my LS3 engine to be in pristine condition not sounding like a bucked of bolts .
The GM Holden Dealer did a back flip when its request for the engine replacement (under warranty) was rejected, without any GM Australia Tech even looking at my vehicle - in my opinion big business bullying, stonewalling while assumed causing more damage if metal is circulating in the engine from suspected lifter problems. The attached letters from GM Australia demonstrates what I am up against - noise dismissed as by GM 'design' and LS3 characteristic. No one in there right mind would by a new car with such engineered characteristics - this reflects badly on the quality of all GM products and its customer support.
That doesn’t sound like piston slap to me. Piston slap is at crank speed (actual engine rpm) of engine and is more subtle than this. Lifter noise is at half speed (camshaft turns half as fast as crank speed) and is more metallic, just like you have there. Sounds like a failing lifter to me. Have the valve covers ever been off to check rocker bolt torque? I had a rocker bolt back off once and it sounded like this almost...very metallic sounding, and being valvetrain related.
GM in America would handle this for you, if this were an American vehicle, no doubt. Can you try another Holden dealer down there, that would be more helpful?
To my knowledge engine is as per its Mexico assembly - Valve Covers have not been removed with my knowledge. GM Australia and Dealer don't want to raise any cause other than Piston Slap (which they believe they can avoid as characteristic. I am not qualified to claim its Lifter/s but that is what it appears to be from Google searches/others videos (but mine sounds worse). In Australia a bad batch of rockers due to a change in part suppliers impacted on engines after mine (a recall was initiated for the 'few engines' effected. Mine has had a bad batch of injectors replaced but that is where the engine issues have been until now. At 6,000 Km I reported piston slap noise when cold and driving but was dismissed as LS3 normal and characteristic. This is GM Australia's final position on this engine under Warranty hence why I have come here for advice.
To my knowledge engine is as per its Mexico assembly - Valve Covers have not been removed with my knowledge. GM Australia and Dealer don't want to raise any cause other than Piston Slap (which they believe they can avoid as characteristic. I am not qualified to claim its Lifter/s but that is what it appears to be from Google searches/others videos (but mine sounds worse). In Australia a bad batch of rockers due to a change in part suppliers impacted on engines after mine (a recall was initiated for the 'few engines' effected. Mine has had a bad batch of injectors replaced but that is where the engine issues have been until now. At 6,000 Km I reported piston slap noise when cold and driving but was dismissed as LS3 normal and characteristic.
I tried in full to post the pdf responses from GM Australia - they may be in limbo for now (didn't get posted) so I will extract a few relevant statements below. GM Australia 26 April 2021 - 'After thorough review ... our Technical Team has deemed your Vehicle to be performing as designed and is considered to be within normal operation. For us to be able to provide your case records we will need a request or summons directly from a legal body or tribunal. .......'
GM Australia 30 April 2021 - 'As you are aware ... we have deemed your reported engine noise to not be in any way detrimental to the operation or longevity of the engine. As explained previously the reported engine noise is "piston slap" which is considered a normal operating characteristic of the high-performance Gen IV LS3 V8 engine and may be noticed when the engine is cold or during warm up. .... GM Australia's Technical Assistance Centre in conjunction with our Warranty Specialists have thoroughly reviewed your request and at this time with the information provided there is no justification for an engine replacement. The matter has been reviewed by our internal Senior Leadership team including Aftersales General Manager Mr. Page. ..... Please understand there may be a cost associated with any further investigations relating to your Vehicle's engine.'
What they're saying is that its not internal with regards to the short block assembly therefore your claim is denied. My son's C6 Corvette has an LS3 and it's so quiet its hard to distinguish if it's lifters or fuel injectors but what's going on there is 100% valvetrain related and to keep letting the engine run is only causing more damage. Could it be possible that someone put the wrong type of oil in the LS3 and/or spun it to the moon before allowing the engine to reach normal operating temperature which led to permanent damage? If it was me I'd be pulling the heads and getting ready for a new cam and lifter swap.
Thanks for your consideration - disturbingly I'm being ignored by GM Australia. FYI Service intervals to date 14 Sept 2016 925 km (575 miles), 26 May 2017 6,290 km (3908 miles I first reported Piston Slap - ignored), 7 Mar 2018 13,012 km (8085 miles), 15 Feb 2019 21,038 km (13072 miles), 14 Aug 2019 25,182 km (15647 miles), 15 June 2020 30,532 km (18,971 miles). Dealer told me to hold off latest service until GM Australia made its decision on the engine replacement - I'm now booked in for a service on the 6 May 2021. Currently my LS3 has enjoyed a gentle warm up and use - only traveled to date 38,507 km (23,927 miles) so this engine should have been in pristine condition - I have insisted the two GM Australia Dealers use only Dexos approved engine oils: GM 19104984 Dexos 2 5W-30 then last 2 services by GM Holden dealer uses Di 5W-30 engine Supersyn Dexos oil. I can only assume my vehicle was not driven badly at the dealerships.
Che70ville said above 'GM in America would handle this for you' - GM.com own GM Australia - sadly its not reasonable to expect faith or trust in GM Australia rebuilding my engine properly following its claimed 'diagnosis', 'investigation' 'review' - only demonstrated more avoidance to force 'there is no justification for engine replacement or engine disassembly'. My video reaction was needed to demonstrate the LS3 noises that the current servicing Dealer said to me required an engine replacement (which I now agree is better than 'people' pulling the engine apart that have little experience/idea to what they are doing). In its response GM.com/GM Australia's comments are taken as attempts to avoid proper repair. GM Australia's comments include the noises are a 'normal operating characteristic of LS3', 'The slight bit of lifter noise goes away as soon as oil begins circulation so not concerned about that either' and 'not in any way detrimental to the operation or longevity of the engine'. GM's good name is being trashed in Australia - many others who trusted GM products are now thinking differently and likely will in the future purchases. Australia's Holden VF2 (your imported Holden based Chevrolet SS) is in my opinion the best car Australia has built - sadly being let down badly by GM Australia after manufacture in Australia was stopped by parent GM.com. 50 years ago my past 1950's highly modded green GM / Holden FJ car (my profile picture) was my pride and joy - sadly I trusted it's engine's reliability more than my current factory assembled low kilometre GM LS3 engine.
Australia has strong consumer protection laws and some manufactures do the right thing by their loyal customers. My son has a Hyundai Santa fe highlander diesel that had a major engine problem fixed well out of Warranty without any resistance or stresses - that support gives customers faith in a manufacturer, unlike what is happening to me.
MY LS1 lifters sounded like a pile driver. Removed them and no visible damage. New LS7 lifters are quieter but it's still a noisy engine. Hopefully a lifter swap solves your problem.
UPDATE _ GM.com/GM Australia final position 13 May 2021 following being pressured to at least inspect my low mileage and well treated LS3 engine:
The dealer that had requested an engine replacement under warranty arranged for GM's inspection over 2 nights (6 and 7th May for 2 cold starts) –
GM Australia's rejection and position today 13 May 2021 after inspections is clear -
... 'In addition to reports, respectively, any higher level technical information is the proprietary property of GM Australia. Given this we are unable to provide this information to you.
Reference to our letter provided to you on the 30 April 2021, in addition to the recent assessment carried out by our GM representative we have deemed your reported engine noise to not be in any way detrimental to the operation or longevity of the engine.'
The scheduled service and new engine oil did not mask the engine noise (as likely GM had hoped) - my car today has travelled only 38,679 Km (24,034 miles) and warranty expires in August 2021. GM's stonewalling demonstrates its culture in Australia - as does a bullying customer support and Australian representatives' portrayal of GM's LS3 engine's proprietary characteristics (terrible engine noises being claimed as normal and characteristic of a LS3 engine that surely no-one in their right mind would buy GM engine knowing this is normal). Is this how GM treats its customers in the US? - I was under the 'expectation' I would be advised in detail what the GM representative found re technical problems within my LS3 engine's that I allege are serious abnormal noises (I got this GM attitude when reporting cold start noises at under 4000 miles (which were ignored as normal). Today these GM representatives again discount its LS3 cold start noises as normal). In agreeing to leaving my vehicle I was told that the subsequent GM Australia representative/s report would identify GM specifications that properly accounts for GM's decision noises are either normal or abnormal, which would identify if what is causing the noises heard can or does cause damage to my vehicle. Generalizations given to date by GM Australia are blatantly inadequate, not reassurances that Australian Consumer Law is not being breached by GM.com/GM Australia. Not demonstrating trust that GM produces engines of quality. I will now have to pay for 3rd party inspections and likely disassembly followed by costly legal action to get a remedy under warranty from GM.com/GM Australia!!!
Damn pretty bad noise. For sure sounds like a bad lifter. What’s oil quality in Straila? And normal oil change intervals? Hell I have seen them throw long blocks in America for noise like that. I had a 6.2 out of a Escalade, deemed for the mileage had low oil pressure. Had 21 psi at idle with 22k miles. They put a new engine it it for the customer.
Thanks to all that posted raising your technical experience of LS3 engines (even more would be appreciated), your consideration regarding what this 'noise' is and its impact on my engine’s life is important as relatively few LS3 engines, by comparison to the US, are in Australia: please recognize my vehicle is still under warranty until August 2021, and cold start noise concerns have been raised on many occasions since the first service 2017. Would those claiming that the mechanical noises heard are ‘normal/characteristic’, ‘engine noise to not be in any way detrimental to the operation or longevity of the engine’, accept that at face value if it was their new car (an A$60,000 vehicle), particularly now any trust in GM.com/GM Australia has been destroyed by its Australian ‘Customer Care’s’ arrogance and bullying? Would anyone buy a vehicle new with this engine noise? Please watch this space as I intend to provide another video Part 2 (should my legal advice agree), following Australian Court proceedings so that others will recognize the battle required to get GM.com/GM Australia to honor warranty claims, and to abide by Australian Consumer Laws.
I have been advised by the Dealer that oil pressure readings were OK – when asked for specifics GM Australia will only provide me generalizations, no details to substantiate its within specifications claims. GM Australia are sticking to the noise being ‘Piston Slap’ as I assume that is easier to avoid warranty arguments compared to other valve train/internal engine problems. I have many video recordings of the noises, the reason for my video’s voice over was to present the battle, GM.com/GM Australia’s position re its Dealer’s warranty claim, customer warranty – demonstrating GM Australia’s tactics of silencing, bullying occurring even before GM Australia’s inspection of the engine.
In reply to servicing intervals: GM Australia, for warranty, require servicing within 12month or 15,000Km intervals(my vehicle has easily met those Voluntary Warranty requirements). Up to the vehicles Fourth Service 14 Aug 2019 to my knowledge GM branded Dexos oil 5W30 was used by the GM dealership.
1000km Inspection 14 Sept 2016 - 925Km (574miles)
First Service 26 May 2017 - 6,290Km (3,908miles) Cold Start noise reported.
I repeatedly raised the cold start engine noises at services but eventually gave up – previously discounted as ‘normal’ until the new Dealer said after testing and keeping it overnight, that an engine replacement was required and they will put in the claim to GM Australia (2021).
Second Service 7 Mar 2018 - 13,012Km (8,085miles)
Third Service 15 Feb 2019 - 21,038Km (13,072miles)
I changed servicing to a different GM Dealership (closer to where I reside) – they used Dexos 2 rated oil 5W30 supplied by the same Australian manufacturer that produced and packaged the GM branded Dexos oil.
Fourth Service 14 Aug 2019 - 25,182Km (15,647miles)
Fifth Service 15 Jun 2020 - 30,532Km (18,971miles)
38080km (23,661miles) notes dealer’s Approval request for authorization to change engine which then delayed for around 4 months the 6th most recent Service (delayed on the Dealer’s advice).
Holden AU Prior Repair Approval Request application was reported to me as being stonewalled, then warranty was rejected by GM.com/GM Australia without inspecting the vehicle.
Extracts below provide a ‘feel of the culture’ I’m up against: I have no idea what GM thinks of its name being trashed in Australia - please raise this with GM.com if you feel it is not characteristic of customer treatment within the US.
21 April 2021 GM Australia- ‘There is no justification for engine replacement or engine disassembly. The slight bit of lifter noise goes away as soon as oil begins circulating so not concerned about that either. Holden engineers do not speak to customers. We don’t accept reports from 3rd party repairers (i.e., LS3 specialists).’
26 April 2021- ‘After thorough review … our Technical Team has deemed your vehicle to be performing as designed and is considered to be within normal operation. For us to be able to provide your case records we will need a request or summons directly from a legal body or tribunal. You are within your rights to take the vehicle for diagnosis to another mechanic however you are responsible for the costs.’
30 April 2021 GM Australia- ‘Following diagnosis and investigation … we have deemed your reported engine noise to not be in any way detrimental to the operation or longevity of the engine. … the reported noise is ‘piston slap’ which is considered a normal operating characteristic … Ls3 V8 engine … when the engine is cold or during warm up. GM Australia … there is no justification for an engine replacement. Please understand there may be a cost associated with any future investigations relating to your Vehicles engine.’
No GM Australia inspection nor confirmation what GM specifications are being met by the noises heard. Hence the need for my video. To my understanding engines GM Holden, before GM.com/GM Australia closed it, had under warranty replaced LS3 engines for excessive ‘piston slap’ – GM.com/GM Australia demonstrates here a culture that has no place in Australia. It appears that since closing GM Holden production (2017), despite the rhetoric and assurances (including ‘Honour all existing warranties and guarantees’, s.87B undertaking to our Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) re misrepresentation to customers, … . It appears instead, GM.com/GM Australia does not give a dam about Australian customers nor Australian Consumer Law (ACL).
Sixth Service (latest) 7 May 2021 - 38,540Km (23,947miles) - I was told GM technical heard the noise at cold starts (both with old oil and with new oil). From which GM.com/GM Australia’s correspondence to me concluded:
13 May 2021- ‘In addition to reports, respectively, any higher level technical information is the proprietary property of GM Australia. Given this we are unable to provide this information to you.
Reference to our letter provided to you on the 30 April 2021, in addition to the recent assessment carried out by our GM representative we have deemed your reported engine noise to not be in any way detrimental to the operation or longevity of the engine.’
From my experiences of GM.com/GM Australia’s bullying, its fanciful claims and appalling attitude to customers, together with what its assumed poor standards re LS3 engineering where under GM.com standards is ‘performing as designed and is considered to be within normal operation’, would be unacceptable to most buyers. This then leads me, as a past consumer, to the conclusion “Why ever trust buying a GM product?”
First off you didn't purchase the car with the engine making this noise correct? It was after it's first service that the noise was reported correct? It was taken to the steal..cough cough..dealership for all service correct? If yes, then the conclusion is simple and somebody from the land down under jacked it up and nobody wants to own up to it. Maybe I missed it but what car do you have? Was it a car that an immature service tech couldn't wait to get behind the wheel of? Do you have a teenage son and do you let him drive your car? My 05 Tahoe had a pronounced knock at start up but went away within a few seconds and it's referred to as piston slap but it didn't sound like what you've described.
When it comes to servicing my vehicles I trust me and if I'm to let someone else get behind the wheel of my car I'm right there watching. Sorry your having these issues and hopefully you get it resolved!
Thanks – in short, I was not aware of the LS3 problems nor heard the cold start noises before I experienced it, only after purchase (my order was built for me, the earlier demo was warm when inspected). My vehicle is an Australian designed and 2016 built GM Holden Commodore Calais Series 2 V Sportwagon, Auto with the US LS3 engine.
To my awareness my vehicle has not been mistreated (no teenage drivers just us oldies) – services were only through GM dealerships and other than all the injectors being replaced by the dealer at 30,532Km (18,971miles) the engine has not been ‘tampered’ with or even the rocker covers removed (just serviced on time as per previous post). Customers are not permitted in the dealer service bay/area so little way of knowing what was done there or during a test drive. I did in 2019 notice variations in earlier dealer filled new oil levels on the dipstick (not reaching low level, but after service and cold the new oil level above the high mark and the 4th number of the parts code (dealer issue re oil filter minor leak (remedy?)). Assume that was not too over full, enough to cause aeration of the oil? A new filter fitted by new dealer fixed it.
I also believe while cold ‘piston slap’ is evident when driving at around 1500-2000rpm, that sounds to me as a different noise to the cold start idle tap/rattle (refer first post video). GM have avoided raising likely extreme valve train noise at cold start (not seconds or ‘stops with oil circulation) as recording could go well over 2minutes if wanted – until I stop bothering to record it). I assume other faults can’t be easily defended as characteristic – the new oil at the last service did not mask these noises (as I expect was hoped by GM Australia to get past the Warranty period). It appears GM.com/GM Australia know or don’t want to find the cause and instead are acting like bullies (note - GM Techs claimed ‘normal’, ‘causing no damage’ denied the dealers request for an engine replacement, without even looking at the vehicle and when put on the spot later claimed what you hear on the video is ‘within design specifications’ – GM conflict of interest claims made without providing reasons or GM LS3 specifications ‘referred to as normal’). GM Australia wrote ‘We don’t accept reports from 3rd party repairers (i.e., LS3 specialists.’– if I take my vehicle to someone independent, that pulls the engine down to confirm the problems (lifter? Cam? Other?) then their report will be ignored and warranty will be voided. Currently GM have the decision powers to fix this, but choose to withhold key findings/GM specifications details (re acceptable levels and durations) that will be important to challenge their statements of ‘normal/characteristic/not be in any way detrimental to the operation or longevity of the engine’.
04-30-2021, 10:25 PM
GM Australia claim LS3 Engine noise 'Normal' by design and no damage 
