4150 or 4500 on 411 14.2:1 stroker
01-14-2022, 04:28 AM
#42
You guys do realize that this is a Fuel Injected setup right? If it was a carburetor you all are right, but this is not the case. I agree with Smoke. 4500 and the CID. There is no substitute. These LS motors consume lots of air. When we went from a 4150 and a super vic to a 4500 and a CID we picked up 49hp and 67pnd ft of torque, and thats with a carb. We drive it on the street a lot. You would swear it is fuel injected the way the throttle response is. The hardest thing for any induction is being able to get on and off the brake flawlessly. We can do it as many times as it takes when you got a guy playing around at the light. I'm a big Fan of the CID intake. There is absofuckinglutely nothing that will out perform this intake on any level or any application on a single entry manifold. I've see twin dominators on tunnel rams many times that make stupid power.
A throttle body just flows air. It doesn't have to mix and flow Fuel. These LS motors love lots of air, and I'm talking big block air. I myself have talked to lots of top engine builders and they told me the same thing. Buy it once. Well it took 2 times for me. Wish I would have talked with John from CID before we started building our motor. Well of knowledge he is, for sure. He wants us to go with the 8500 Acufab for our 427 build with his heads and intake all done up by BES. Everything he has told me has been dead nut accurate for sure.
I've grown to like Smoke. I know sometimes its hard to understand what he's saying. Sometimes you just have to ask him what he means. But the fact is he's usually right. Instead of arguing with him. Ask some questions. The brother does know his ****. Smoke don't pull no punches so don't get offended.
A throttle body just flows air. It doesn't have to mix and flow Fuel. These LS motors love lots of air, and I'm talking big block air. I myself have talked to lots of top engine builders and they told me the same thing. Buy it once. Well it took 2 times for me. Wish I would have talked with John from CID before we started building our motor. Well of knowledge he is, for sure. He wants us to go with the 8500 Acufab for our 427 build with his heads and intake all done up by BES. Everything he has told me has been dead nut accurate for sure.
I've grown to like Smoke. I know sometimes its hard to understand what he's saying. Sometimes you just have to ask him what he means. But the fact is he's usually right. Instead of arguing with him. Ask some questions. The brother does know his ****. Smoke don't pull no punches so don't get offended.
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bbond105 (01-14-2022)
01-14-2022, 08:42 AM
#43
On The Tree
You guys do realize that this is a Fuel Injected setup right? If it was a carburetor you all are right, but this is not the case. I agree with Smoke. 4500 and the CID. There is no substitute. These LS motors consume lots of air. When we went from a 4150 and a super vic to a 4500 and a CID we picked up 49hp and 67pnd ft of torque, and thats with a carb. We drive it on the street a lot. You would swear it is fuel injected the way the throttle response is. The hardest thing for any induction is being able to get on and off the brake flawlessly. We can do it as many times as it takes when you got a guy playing around at the light. I'm a big Fan of the CID intake. There is absofuckinglutely nothing that will out perform this intake on any level or any application on a single entry manifold. I've see twin dominators on tunnel rams many times that make stupid power.
A throttle body just flows air. It doesn't have to mix and flow Fuel. These LS motors love lots of air, and I'm talking big block air. I myself have talked to lots of top engine builders and they told me the same thing. Buy it once. Well it took 2 times for me. Wish I would have talked with John from CID before we started building our motor. Well of knowledge he is, for sure. He wants us to go with the 8500 Acufab for our 427 build with his heads and intake all done up by BES. Everything he has told me has been dead nut accurate for sure.
I've grown to like Smoke. I know sometimes its hard to understand what he's saying. Sometimes you just have to ask him what he means. But the fact is he's usually right. Instead of arguing with him. Ask some questions. The brother does know his ****. Smoke don't pull no punches so don't get offended.
A throttle body just flows air. It doesn't have to mix and flow Fuel. These LS motors love lots of air, and I'm talking big block air. I myself have talked to lots of top engine builders and they told me the same thing. Buy it once. Well it took 2 times for me. Wish I would have talked with John from CID before we started building our motor. Well of knowledge he is, for sure. He wants us to go with the 8500 Acufab for our 427 build with his heads and intake all done up by BES. Everything he has told me has been dead nut accurate for sure.
I've grown to like Smoke. I know sometimes its hard to understand what he's saying. Sometimes you just have to ask him what he means. But the fact is he's usually right. Instead of arguing with him. Ask some questions. The brother does know his ****. Smoke don't pull no punches so don't get offended.
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jayyyw (01-15-2022)
01-14-2022, 08:59 AM
#44
You guys do realize that this is a Fuel Injected setup right? If it was a carburetor you all are right, but this is not the case. I agree with Smoke. 4500 and the CID. There is no substitute. These LS motors consume lots of air. When we went from a 4150 and a super vic to a 4500 and a CID we picked up 49hp and 67pnd ft of torque, and thats with a carb. We drive it on the street a lot. You would swear it is fuel injected the way the throttle response is. The hardest thing for any induction is being able to get on and off the brake flawlessly. We can do it as many times as it takes when you got a guy playing around at the light. I'm a big Fan of the CID intake. There is absofuckinglutely nothing that will out perform this intake on any level or any application on a single entry manifold. I've see twin dominators on tunnel rams many times that make stupid power.
A throttle body just flows air. It doesn't have to mix and flow Fuel. These LS motors love lots of air, and I'm talking big block air. I myself have talked to lots of top engine builders and they told me the same thing. Buy it once. Well it took 2 times for me. Wish I would have talked with John from CID before we started building our motor. Well of knowledge he is, for sure. He wants us to go with the 8500 Acufab for our 427 build with his heads and intake all done up by BES. Everything he has told me has been dead nut accurate for sure.
I've grown to like Smoke. I know sometimes its hard to understand what he's saying. Sometimes you just have to ask him what he means. But the fact is he's usually right. Instead of arguing with him. Ask some questions. The brother does know his ****. Smoke don't pull no punches so don't get offended.
A throttle body just flows air. It doesn't have to mix and flow Fuel. These LS motors love lots of air, and I'm talking big block air. I myself have talked to lots of top engine builders and they told me the same thing. Buy it once. Well it took 2 times for me. Wish I would have talked with John from CID before we started building our motor. Well of knowledge he is, for sure. He wants us to go with the 8500 Acufab for our 427 build with his heads and intake all done up by BES. Everything he has told me has been dead nut accurate for sure.
I've grown to like Smoke. I know sometimes its hard to understand what he's saying. Sometimes you just have to ask him what he means. But the fact is he's usually right. Instead of arguing with him. Ask some questions. The brother does know his ****. Smoke don't pull no punches so don't get offended.
True, the big boys run a pair of split doms. Some guys are cutting off their 4500 flange opening up the CID even more and going with a 123mm throttle body. Granted then you have over $2,500 into an intake, to each their own.
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G Atsma (01-14-2022)
01-15-2022, 02:47 AM
#45
You guys have no clue. No offence. The CID with a 4500 throttle body will out perform that 4150 setup at any rpm. Period. Would work perfect for that setup. King of the Hammers type ****. The fact I have to explain this, you just don't know.
That buggy can be used for several different forms of off road use. Baja type racing for one. How about hill climbs like Gravelrama. Mud racing, mud bogs, sand drags, and Silver Lake Michigan.
Why limit yourself.
Where did someone come up with this 10-20hp bullshit anyway. I also never saw the OP say it was a rock crawler. Another poster did. The fact he said he would be more in the mid range in and out of the throttle tells me he is not rock crawling. Rock crawlers rarely come off just above idle. Sometimes they have to romp it to get on top of something, but not for long. Only other type would be rock bouncing. King of the Hammers type ****.
I was into the off road **** big time before I started drag racing. Mud bogs and sand drags are not much different than the drag strip. A friend of mine has a bad *** rock crawler he bought off of his good friend called the Sniper, that originally opened and owned the Badlands in Attica IN. The owner then bought a Camble buggy. The owner had a separate section that was gated off for his own private use. I've seen some of the craziest **** if ever saw there. I got out at one point it was so nuts. My friend fell off a cliff and dropped like 12 feet upside down into the river below. He was unhurt that crazy bastard. We flipped it back over and drug it out with the winches. Changed the oil and kept on rockin. Glad I got out. Lol
That buggy can be used for several different forms of off road use. Baja type racing for one. How about hill climbs like Gravelrama. Mud racing, mud bogs, sand drags, and Silver Lake Michigan.
Why limit yourself.
Where did someone come up with this 10-20hp bullshit anyway. I also never saw the OP say it was a rock crawler. Another poster did. The fact he said he would be more in the mid range in and out of the throttle tells me he is not rock crawling. Rock crawlers rarely come off just above idle. Sometimes they have to romp it to get on top of something, but not for long. Only other type would be rock bouncing. King of the Hammers type ****.
I was into the off road **** big time before I started drag racing. Mud bogs and sand drags are not much different than the drag strip. A friend of mine has a bad *** rock crawler he bought off of his good friend called the Sniper, that originally opened and owned the Badlands in Attica IN. The owner then bought a Camble buggy. The owner had a separate section that was gated off for his own private use. I've seen some of the craziest **** if ever saw there. I got out at one point it was so nuts. My friend fell off a cliff and dropped like 12 feet upside down into the river below. He was unhurt that crazy bastard. We flipped it back over and drug it out with the winches. Changed the oil and kept on rockin. Glad I got out. Lol
Last edited by TTur1996; 01-15-2022 at 03:11 AM.
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bbond105 (01-15-2022)
01-15-2022, 07:22 AM
#46
You guys have no clue. No offence. The CID with a 4500 throttle body will out perform that 4150 setup at any rpm. Period. Would work perfect for that setup. King of the Hammers type ****. The fact I have to explain this, you just don't know.
That buggy can be used for several different forms of off road use. Baja type racing for one. How about hill climbs like Gravelrama. Mud racing, mud bogs, sand drags, and Silver Lake Michigan.
Why limit yourself.
Where did someone come up with this 10-20hp bullshit anyway. I also never saw the OP say it was a rock crawler. Another poster did. The fact he said he would be more in the mid range in and out of the throttle tells me he is not rock crawling. Rock crawlers rarely come off just above idle. Sometimes they have to romp it to get on top of something, but not for long. Only other type would be rock bouncing. King of the Hammers type ****.
I was into the off road **** big time before I started drag racing. Mud bogs and sand drags are not much different than the drag strip. A friend of mine has a bad *** rock crawler he bought off of his good friend called the Sniper, that originally opened and owned the Badlands in Attica IN. The owner then bought a Camble buggy. The owner had a separate section that was gated off for his own private use. I've seen some of the craziest **** if ever saw there. I got out at one point it was so nuts. My friend fell off a cliff and dropped like 12 feet upside down into the river below. He was unhurt that crazy bastard. We flipped it back over and drug it out with the winches. Changed the oil and kept on rockin. Glad I got out. Lol
That buggy can be used for several different forms of off road use. Baja type racing for one. How about hill climbs like Gravelrama. Mud racing, mud bogs, sand drags, and Silver Lake Michigan.
Why limit yourself.
Where did someone come up with this 10-20hp bullshit anyway. I also never saw the OP say it was a rock crawler. Another poster did. The fact he said he would be more in the mid range in and out of the throttle tells me he is not rock crawling. Rock crawlers rarely come off just above idle. Sometimes they have to romp it to get on top of something, but not for long. Only other type would be rock bouncing. King of the Hammers type ****.
I was into the off road **** big time before I started drag racing. Mud bogs and sand drags are not much different than the drag strip. A friend of mine has a bad *** rock crawler he bought off of his good friend called the Sniper, that originally opened and owned the Badlands in Attica IN. The owner then bought a Camble buggy. The owner had a separate section that was gated off for his own private use. I've seen some of the craziest **** if ever saw there. I got out at one point it was so nuts. My friend fell off a cliff and dropped like 12 feet upside down into the river below. He was unhurt that crazy bastard. We flipped it back over and drug it out with the winches. Changed the oil and kept on rockin. Glad I got out. Lol
01-15-2022, 10:29 AM
#47
Cool. The 10-20hp came from the op not caring about max effort top end. I've had 700hp setups not gain 10whp with larger throttle bodies so is what it is, just depends on the setup. The OP already purchased what he wanted, I'm sure it'll suck so bad that he'll immediately want to take it off for a Hogan intake with dual 4500 throttle bodies for $5000 to gain those extra few ponies.
Jumping off the deep end with the Hogan cracked me up and showed exactly what Smoke was talking about. Great Job. You earned it. I'm out.
01-15-2022, 02:27 PM
#48
No the OP only repeated what Spanks said and everyone ran with it. More band wagon bullshit. Smoke tried to right bad info givin to the OP, and he is absolutely correct. You guys are applying what a carburetor would do. On a throttle body. the motor will consume the air it wants being dictated by the build. This is a 14.2:1 motor with good heads. It will consume a **** load of air. The CID and 4500 would benefit this setup start to finish with a lot more than 20hp. You guys do realize there are different size 4500 throttle bodies right?
I've done it carbureted and also fuel injected. Not a 4150 vs 4500 but with a 105mm vs 90mm on my 402. The 105mm was 90+kPa by 60% throttle. You were essentially either idling or flooring it. Carbureted was a 1050 dominator vs a holley 750 on a 415..throttle response was more than ok with the 1050 - same issue you had no range of throttle it was all or nothing vs a very driveable throttle that the entire throttle pedal throw is actually doing something. Vicjor jr and a 750 runs just fine up to 7500 on our 415 and has been 9.80 in a brick of a station wagon lifting out of a wheelie. Both setups made more power with the larger tb and that part is awesome, but both engines also have fantastic performance in the midrange with the smaller tb and are nicer to drive and live with.
Idle tuning and slow speed and part throttle will be easier to deal with having a smaller throttle. 4150 saves a ton of money, better packaging in the vehicle, and in part throttle and lower rpm ranges I doubt will be much different in performance.
At high rpm his driveline is probably consuming 35%, or 200hp+ it is diminishing returns up there in this application big time. A big manifold and tb is the obvious choice for all out performance 6000 rpm and above.
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CollinMaune (01-15-2022), G Atsma (01-15-2022)
01-15-2022, 02:32 PM
#49
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/gi...dyno-shootout/
Vic Jr. 4150
Ave HP (3,100-7,000): 452.8 hp
Ave TQ (3,100-7,000): 465.8 lb-ft
TQ at 4,000 rpm: 449.5 lb-ft
Super Vic 4150
Ave HP (3,100-7,000): 450.9 hp
Ave TQ (3,100-7,000): 463.9 lb-ft
TQ at 4,000 rpm: 451.2 lb-ft
Super Vic 4500
Ave HP (3,100-7,000): 455.2 hp
Ave TQ (3,100-7,000): 467.8 lb-ft
TQ at 4,000 rpm: 450.1 lb-ft
Mast 4500
Ave HP (3,100-7,000): 454.2 hp
Ave TQ (3,100-7,000): 467.1 lb-ft
TQ at 4,000 rpm: 450.5 lb-ft
Vic Jr. 4150
Ave HP (3,100-7,000): 452.8 hp
Ave TQ (3,100-7,000): 465.8 lb-ft
TQ at 4,000 rpm: 449.5 lb-ft
Super Vic 4150
Ave HP (3,100-7,000): 450.9 hp
Ave TQ (3,100-7,000): 463.9 lb-ft
TQ at 4,000 rpm: 451.2 lb-ft
Super Vic 4500
Ave HP (3,100-7,000): 455.2 hp
Ave TQ (3,100-7,000): 467.8 lb-ft
TQ at 4,000 rpm: 450.1 lb-ft
Mast 4500
Ave HP (3,100-7,000): 454.2 hp
Ave TQ (3,100-7,000): 467.1 lb-ft
TQ at 4,000 rpm: 450.5 lb-ft
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G Atsma (01-15-2022)
01-15-2022, 05:34 PM
#50
My issue with a CID is the height, if I went with that intake I would give up a decent amount of visibility compared to what I went with. Yes I could go through and buy a Dry sump kit redo the motor mounts to lower the motor in the buggy etc. If I do that work I will just have a 408 built with a whipple or something similar instead of going NA.
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Corona (01-16-2022)
01-15-2022, 10:21 PM
#51
TTur1996 is right about how much air these engines want. Besides his own car and testing there was a member on here years ago who had a forged 347ci ls1, heads/cam etc (cathedrals), n/a. And he had a super vic efi on it and welded on a 4500 adapter and ported out the top of the plenum etc to suit it. This is probably before the CID intakes ever even existed. And he ran 10.2 's in the 1/4 , 4th gen car, a little n/a 347ci. It went the quickest ever with the 4500 throttle body on it. I can probably find the member and some of his posts if i searched long enough but just take my word for it, it happened. If you are going to buy a new intake and throttle body anyway i'd go 4500 unless you have hood clearance issues.
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G Atsma (01-15-2022)
01-16-2022, 09:09 AM
#52
ModSquad
iTrader: (6)
Maybe if the OP put twins on this buggy and a 500 shot, he could go high 9’s….
Please guys, think about application before you post. Classic LS1Tech right here.
Please guys, think about application before you post. Classic LS1Tech right here.
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G Atsma (01-16-2022)
01-16-2022, 11:55 AM
#53
TECH Senior Member
OK. Did any of you go-fast geniuses notice it is an OFF-ROAD BUGGY?? NOT a drag car, NOT a drifter, nor anything else where nothing matters but top end.
This guy needs the additional flexibility the smaller TB would afford him. He doesn't need the extra 20HP @ 7500 RPM the hottest setup would give him. SMH...
01-16-2022, 11:59 AM
#54
I get and understand what the owner said and wants with Being able to see past the intake.
Other than that the 4500 offers more and More is what it's all About. What got me was all the Misinformation about Driveability, Throttle Response, it being only worth 5 hp on a 14+ compression engine and a cam that wasn't spoken on or Rpm uses or needed.
On a 400 hp engine it may not be worth anything but as Hp increases The 5 hp turns to 20+ and the 4 ft lbs turns into 18+ ft lbs...
Mamo ported intake told the story even with Help the 4150 is No match.
Anyone who's watched Darin or any other of the Porters videos Knows this about a Throttle Body you can't be too big and if you get the correct Cam and tune the or a 4500 would be purchased. You Can have to Much fuel with a 4500 carb....TB doesn't supply fuel for tuning it. TB Regulates The air and Air is hp. Not dependent on Rpm or Use.
Also it's not always about Peak hp or Tq it's just common Knowledge and What a engine wants. Engine wants as Less of a restriction of Airflow as possible and as Much as Possible.. Does anyone with Questions understand how a Bomb or Explosion, or Fire works?
More Air more Boooom!
My common sense tells me we have 8 intake valves for myself that are 2.165 and one that uses 2.20 valves
🤔 4500 or 4150 and the Tune and Driveability isn't Noticed or a issue.
Guys here have been trained on BS or read BS and took it as Truth. The #1 porter used here Ported a 4150 and it still LOST 2 a 4500 and the 434 cube build Wasn't about Peak Hp
Maybe they understand that?
Here's a kick to the Ole *****. It's said that a Cathedral port makes more Tq? Testing showed us that if a Better intake with Less Restrictions were used a 280 cc Dart Ls3 made more TQ and Hp than a 245 TFS head Cathedral head from start to finish. The Heads are only as good as the intake... Go figure.
Other than that the 4500 offers more and More is what it's all About. What got me was all the Misinformation about Driveability, Throttle Response, it being only worth 5 hp on a 14+ compression engine and a cam that wasn't spoken on or Rpm uses or needed.
On a 400 hp engine it may not be worth anything but as Hp increases The 5 hp turns to 20+ and the 4 ft lbs turns into 18+ ft lbs...
Mamo ported intake told the story even with Help the 4150 is No match.
Anyone who's watched Darin or any other of the Porters videos Knows this about a Throttle Body you can't be too big and if you get the correct Cam and tune the or a 4500 would be purchased. You Can have to Much fuel with a 4500 carb....TB doesn't supply fuel for tuning it. TB Regulates The air and Air is hp. Not dependent on Rpm or Use.
Also it's not always about Peak hp or Tq it's just common Knowledge and What a engine wants. Engine wants as Less of a restriction of Airflow as possible and as Much as Possible.. Does anyone with Questions understand how a Bomb or Explosion, or Fire works?
More Air more Boooom!
My common sense tells me we have 8 intake valves for myself that are 2.165 and one that uses 2.20 valves
🤔 4500 or 4150 and the Tune and Driveability isn't Noticed or a issue.
Guys here have been trained on BS or read BS and took it as Truth. The #1 porter used here Ported a 4150 and it still LOST 2 a 4500 and the 434 cube build Wasn't about Peak Hp
Maybe they understand that?
Here's a kick to the Ole *****. It's said that a Cathedral port makes more Tq? Testing showed us that if a Better intake with Less Restrictions were used a 280 cc Dart Ls3 made more TQ and Hp than a 245 TFS head Cathedral head from start to finish. The Heads are only as good as the intake... Go figure.
01-16-2022, 12:03 PM
#55
What is the Flexibility difference of a 4150 TB vs a 4500 TB? If you've got a good TB. I figure Less hp is your Flexibility?
01-16-2022, 12:07 PM
#56
Don't worry I'll call Mr Glass @ Accufab tomorrow also Wilson to Kill the BS.
simple question of what difference is or would be seen on Flexibility, Driveability, Throttle Response, and tuneability of a 4150 vs 4500. Same engine and car.
2022 kill all BS
simple question of what difference is or would be seen on Flexibility, Driveability, Throttle Response, and tuneability of a 4150 vs 4500. Same engine and car.
2022 kill all BS
01-16-2022, 12:09 PM
#57
TECH Senior Member
Unless there was a vacuum reading at full throttle with the 4150, the 4500 was more than the engine needed. And "more than needed" adds nothing.
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bbond105 (01-16-2022)
01-16-2022, 01:09 PM
#58
https://www.yellowbullet.com/threads.../post-31364010
01-16-2022, 01:15 PM
#59
throttle position sensor (TPS) and idle air control sensor (IAC) with a progressive linkage and a cam Meant for a intended build will drive just as Good as a 4150 with more Hp..
Common Sense what which one to use.. This isn't the plastic intake argument and being low profile vs. You can't control Tq only with gearing. But I can control hp and rpm. Never use plastic it harms our oceans 🤣😂
Had to get a jab in G. 🤪
Common Sense what which one to use.. This isn't the plastic intake argument and being low profile vs. You can't control Tq only with gearing. But I can control hp and rpm. Never use plastic it harms our oceans 🤣😂
Had to get a jab in G. 🤪
01-16-2022, 01:37 PM
#60
I remember having a 4150 Super vic.... asked some of the same Baseline questions to Mr Glass of Accufab. Return of the 4150 with restocking fee and no TB had been purchased.
told once and never 2 be forgotten Mamo ported intake showed what I was told so many yrs ago. Go figure.
told once and never 2 be forgotten Mamo ported intake showed what I was told so many yrs ago. Go figure.