acammer

iTrader: (1)

I was going to post this in the bench/dyno racing forum, but I figured you guys would debate this to no end, and it would be better off in here anyways you LT1 guys will actually see it.

So, at lunch today, I got a good debate going with my friend, another car junkie, a former VR4 owner who knows he wants rwd/v8 power, but likes to play the devils advocate. Our basic argument was that his old twin turbo v6 awd platform was a better dollar to et platform than my Lt1 car. Now, he doesn't even agree with this, but we debated it as such none the less.

He contends that for $5k he can make 500awhp cheaper, and more reliable, than the LT1 car, and it will run a better ET - should go 11.0. For the sake of the argument, the LT1 had to remain internally stock, no heads/cam, or stroker - that was my first argument which he shot down. Fine, we'll keep this simple do it yourself-er. I told him you could do boltons, big shot of n20, tune, clutch (m6 car) and a good rear w/ drag radials for that much, and it would make 500rwhp on spray and ET even better than his 11.0. He thinks the motor won't hold for very long. What do you guys think?

I said you could do a heads/cam/383 setup with a clutch, keep the 10bolt, go easy on it, and go just as fast w/o the spray for the same amount of money. How about that one?

We are of course ignoring that to actually go that fast, either car would need a cage, etc added into the price.

OneBadvAte

Vr-4 hands down.

nightrunner

iTrader: (4)

i think it would hold a 150shot easy.

i doubt you could get away with a 10bolt with a built 383 and actually launching it good enough to get good et

96lt1m6

iTrader: (31)

considering the fastest bolt on Lt1 6spd car ran 11.80 what do you think a shot of nitrous would do there? average gain is 1.70 gain on a 150 shot so roughly 10.00-10.30 i dnot see the VR4 running anywhere close to that

acammer

iTrader: (1)

All motor, stock internals went 11.80? Wow, I didn't know. Just to clarify, thats stock cam/heads right? I consider roller rockers a bolt on along w/ valvesprings. What was the trap-speed? It must have been a major 60' car, I'm guess stall/gears, and gutted. Still, thats impressive, I would have guessed an LT1 with full long tube exhaust, cold air intake, throttle body, 1.65RR's w/ supporting valvesprings, afterkmarket opti, good tune, stall (or good clutch if M6), aluminum driveshaft, good rear gear, appropriate suspension, and on drag radials would cut mid 12's at regular daily driver weight.

I'll admit, I've spent a decent amount of time in the SBC world with prior 3rd gens, but this LT1 is a bit new to me, I'm working more on my education of my new ride every day.

PNYKLR-TA

iTrader: (1)

^Very good point, and stock our motor will handle a 150 shot pretty easy.

And if you were auto, and just got a nasty H/C package and a nice tranny/stall you could easily run those times too. Being auto's dont gotta worry as much about the 10 bolt.

ss.slp.ls1

iTrader: (36)

I think there is a reason why you don't see many people making 11 second all wheel drive cars and launching them hard consistantly. For the same reason you would question the 10 bolt's reliability, I'd call into question the drivetrain of the vr4.

If I had to guess, I think that dollar for dollar the VR4 would be faster at first, (boost controller, tires, bolt-ons), but then once you you consider a budget that allowed for that addition of heads/cam/n2o the vr4 wouldn't stand a chance.

Elliott's94Z

iTrader: (12)

A local builder/friend of mine is running the stock 10 bolt on his 383 stroker w/ a 3800 stall and M/T drag radials. He's heading into his 4th consecutive year of nothing but drag racing the car with not one issue. Lucky SOB if you ask me

marc97taws6

iTrader: (6)

[QUOTE=acammer;11565135]Our basic argument was that his old twin turbo v6 awd platform was a better dollar to et platform than my Lt1 car. He contends that for $5k he can make 500awhp cheaper, and more reliable, than the LT1 car, and it will run a better ET - should go 11.0.

My first setup was a 95 3000GT VR4... For $5,000 you can make it fast as hell! But reliability!!! BAHAHA! Fast DSM's are the most unreliable pieces of crap ever... you have to check fluids daily to make sure nothing breaks. Sure, its fast, but reliable HELL NO!

marc97taws6

iTrader: (6)

And for that VR4 to have that much power he would have to be boosted at 2-3 bar atmosphere... The comparable situation is you with 2 or 3 lt1 motors in your car simultaneously... so therefore you should be able to run heads/cam/intake/n2o and still have it be a fair race

acammer

iTrader: (1)

Yea, we had a good debate, we each did a theoretical build on each car for 5k, I'm pretty sure my bolton, sprayed lt1 with a good clutch/rear would hold up fine in our hypothetical as compared to a similar ET'ing DSM. He's on board for the v8/rwd stuff too, we just like a good debate, and figured it would be fun to bring you guys and your opinions in.

He had a 1994 VR4, stock turbos, full downpipe back exhaust, boost controller pushing 12-14psi, clutch, injectors, piggyback system on the ecu, it was a fast car for sure, and probably would rip a 1.8 60' from a stoplight, let alone on the track. He was good for about mid 12's. The car had some reliability issues - he's well aware, but likes a good argument. Parts of the VR4 are pretty strong, the trans and front/rear diffs are strong, stock motors can do 18-22psi pretty safely w/ good fuel, the real weak link in the transfer case, he broke one of those, followed by an input shaft bear on the trans (probably from the initial driveline lockup at 30mph) and that dumped oil on the clutch new clutch with less than 2k miles on it, etc, etc. Got pretty ugly fast, he's not in the car anymore, and he'll be LSx hunting within 12months, probably will end up C5Z06.

glocklimited9

iTrader: (3)

lol Vr4s, reliable? comon now.

First of all it it all depends on the builder in real life.
Stock 10 bolts arent great, but the problem with 90% of them is they are set up wrong, we set up a few 10 bolts on 400+ rwhp 6 speeds. We built a Gtp ported Afr 210 h/c/i package on my cousins old Black 94 T/a that made about 430rwhp, we installed 4.10 gears, and a stud girdle @ 50k miles. This car was definatly not driven easy, and even with the stickey 335s on the back last i heard the car had over 100k on it, still running and with the same 410s and they are still quiet as ever

With 5 grand you would ***** slap a vr4 with a properly setup lt1, and it doesnt get much more reliable then the ole sbc

Puck

iTrader: (17)

Lt1 is a much better drag platform then a vr4, and will last longer with less repairs. Not to mention drivetrain loss is terrible and will make it much harder to hit 500hp to the wheels then a t56 LT1.

Also, no matter what the car, high powered AWD launches are HELL on all the drivetrain components and make for questionable reliability. Think dumping the clutch on your t56 is rough? That is nothing in comparison. Even the new GTR cannot safely launch the car too often even when it is bone stock...so much so that just taking off the launch control viods your warranty

Now if you were arguing autocross, THAT would be a debate worth having!!!

acammer

iTrader: (1)

Autocross is even less of a debate if you ask me... a heavy awd car is going to turn like absolutely crap, and transition poorly. RWD beats AWD for lateral grip in most cases, the awd would have a slight advantage out of the turns, but they don't turn in as good, and don't rotate or transition as well.

I maintained my point from the get-go that the rwd/v8 combo is the way to go for a drag-race low dollar setup, and he does conceed that point, but not without signiificant debate for fun.

OneBadvAte

Just want to point out for the record I am the revious VR-4 owner just stirring up some commotuion. Anyways I would like to correct one misstated thing about the VR-4 and DSM being in the same thread. VR-4's are NOT DSM's, they were built in Nagoya, Japan NOT Normal, IL at the DSM plant. Nowhere on the entire car does it have a single DSM badge. Just thought I should point that commonly misstated fact out.

1SlowFormula

hell, I have less than 5K into my LT1, and it's bolt-ons only, if I spent another 1K on weight reduction stuff I might be able to get closer to 11.0's and if I thew on a 150 shot I think I can easily get low 10's. But then again that is a lightweight, non-street car that is needed to get the LT1 that fast as a bolt-on vs the VR-4...

litch2004

iTrader: (1)

It also depends on what year the VR4 is. Correct me if im wrong but on the earlier years they came with a 29 spline that would eventually spin and loose all the teeth on the output shaft. Another problem was the transfer case. Something about a piece snaps off and eats up all the gears inside of it. The later models came with a 32 spline fixing most but not all of the problems with the drivetrain.

ThreeHonks

iTrader: (10)

I would be a little weary about the stock internals, yeah they are suppossed to be able to handle 500 hp. or what but I just spun a bearing on my 54K mile '96 Trans Am with bolt ons and stock rev limiter.

FbodyFreak

iTrader: (5)

Ok, well my arguement would be if the vr4 could make that much power with 5k without n20... because I live here in NM which is where dynamic racing is (world famous 3sx racing shop). Now, they have a turbo upgrade available called the DR-650's. They run about $2,100.00 each... now that not including the other bolt ons needed.... they are know to put out about 500ish WITH heads and the other boltons.... and even matt monett's car (worlds fastest 3sx) when he had the 650's on his car he went 11.00 flat... and I believe that was with a built motor heads and cams.... soo...

FbodyFreak

iTrader: (5)

It funny that's you say that because I do agree with you that they are not the same at all. They are not considered "DSM's"... but about the badge thing... I thought that DSM stood for " Diamond Star motors" which I also thought stood for the three diamonds in a star shaped pattern that make up the commonly know mitsu symbol. And that dsm was an abreviation or acronym if you will, for the joint corrpuration between them and chyrsler hmmm... anyways doesn't that mean that the little emblem with the 3 diamonds on front and on back of the 3k's is technnically a dsm symbol? Idk...