Afr vs ai&le
12-09-2010, 10:12 AM
#41
i honestly can say i dont know what it really makes for numbers........a long time ago when i was having some issues when i first built it it made 470rwhp through a 4000 converter, slicks and 4.56's.......personally i dont play the number game with dynos.....i like playing the number game at the track 
.......regardless at 3500lbs and a not so efficent trans setup ive had a peak mph of 132.8 in 800ft DA.....gotta be making some serious power to do that I would think......
.......regardless at 3500lbs and a not so efficent trans setup ive had a peak mph of 132.8 in 800ft DA.....gotta be making some serious power to do that I would think...... 
Can't wait to hear my car start up with that custom cam they sent me
12-09-2010, 10:21 AM
#43
Oh yeah, it surely does once you get into significant power adder apps. Hope it was obvious I was just messing with you. There's an immense difference from the guy who runs a couple hundred horse worth of n2o or a 9lb blower kit vs. the real deal setups like you & the guys you're referring to. Much less the years of refinement and thousands of passes to make the car actually work. 
If the little 215cc head we produce based on the 23deg TFS casting will make up to ~550-570rwhp NA on pump fuel, I am quite certain some of our racier 23deg heads would do it on an average short block. Especially if fuel type is open.
-Phil
If the little 215cc head we produce based on the 23deg TFS casting will make up to ~550-570rwhp NA on pump fuel, I am quite certain some of our racier 23deg heads would do it on an average short block. Especially if fuel type is open.
-Phil
12-09-2010, 10:22 AM
#44
i honestly can say i dont know what it really makes for numbers........a long time ago when i was having some issues when i first built it it made 470rwhp through a 4000 converter, slicks and 4.56's.......personally i dont play the number game with dynos.....i like playing the number game at the track .......regardless at 3500lbs and a not so efficent trans setup ive had a peak mph of 132.8 in 800ft DA.....gotta be making some serious power to do that I would think......
.......regardless at 3500lbs and a not so efficent trans setup ive had a peak mph of 132.8 in 800ft DA.....gotta be making some serious power to do that I would think......
12-09-2010, 12:15 PM
#47
12-09-2010, 01:20 PM
#48
Ill be running a set of ported AFR 190s on my new build up and know they will work great. They came off a 383 turbo setup that put down 600rwhp. I think what AFR has going for them is that they will perform decent out of the box but they have a lot of meat on them if you decide to port them vs a stock casting where your limited to how much you can take off.
12-09-2010, 01:30 PM
#49
+1
I love how AFRs are a "gamble" when they have been proven time and time again on some crazy fast LTX *and* SBC cars.
The world is a bigger place then LS1Tech.com, some people need to get out more.
LE makes an awesome head for a DD on a budget, AI make a great package for a "hot" street/strip vehicle...but for all out performance I would put AFRs againts not only anyones ported stockers, but any 23* head period.
I love how AFRs are a "gamble" when they have been proven time and time again on some crazy fast LTX *and* SBC cars.
The world is a bigger place then LS1Tech.com, some people need to get out more.
LE makes an awesome head for a DD on a budget, AI make a great package for a "hot" street/strip vehicle...but for all out performance I would put AFRs againts not only anyones ported stockers, but any 23* head period.
12-09-2010, 02:05 PM
#50
I haven't seen any results with out of the box afr heads on a stock shortblock that made me want to try them. I keep hearing people say afr this and that but when it comes down to it where are the results? All the fast guys have worked afr heads, and there are no out of the box afr's on a stock shortblock that make decent power or run decent times that I could find.
Out of the box AFRs have been making 600+hp NA for years. Check out some of the threads on the bullet from when they released the eliminator series - they were putting down sick numbers left and right.
Like Phil said though, there is no one best head. It depends on your goals and budget...for 9/10 people ported stockers are plenty.
12-09-2010, 02:17 PM
#52
All this means is that you probably don't view any forums besides LS1Tech.
Out of the box AFRs have been making 600+hp NA for years. Check out some of the threads on the bullet from when they released the eliminator series - they were putting down sick numbers left and right.
Like Phil said though, there is no one best head. It depends on your goals and budget...for 9/10 people ported stockers are plenty.
Out of the box AFRs have been making 600+hp NA for years. Check out some of the threads on the bullet from when they released the eliminator series - they were putting down sick numbers left and right.
Like Phil said though, there is no one best head. It depends on your goals and budget...for 9/10 people ported stockers are plenty.
Forgot to mention another one of the downfalls I didn't like about the AFR's was the longevity of the guides being bronze vs powdered medal in stock castings.
12-09-2010, 03:15 PM
#53
My own theory on this. People don't want to spend the money twice. They're cheap. AI and LE heads are stock castings that are a dime a dozen or you use your own. Once they work them over, they'll perform on par or outperform most out of the box aftermarket heads.
People who really want to move and make power will buy aftermarket heads and then have them worked over also.
It's just a money thing for most I bet.
People who really want to move and make power will buy aftermarket heads and then have them worked over also.
It's just a money thing for most I bet.
12-09-2010, 07:15 PM
#55
11 Second Club
Me and no one else can not ever say it better than you dude...
12-09-2010, 10:24 PM
#56
Staging Lane
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I haven't seen any results with out of the box afr heads on a stock shortblock that made me want to try them. I keep hearing people say afr this and that but when it comes down to it where are the results? All the fast guys have worked afr heads, and there are no out of the box afr's on a stock shortblock that make decent power or run decent times that I could find.
........maybe 
12-10-2010, 08:49 AM
#58
I hate to be a stickler....but why does everyone compare AI or LE's 200cc heads to the 180 and 190cc AFR's....
Wouldn't it make more sense to compare a similar cc head??? I could see a set of cnc AFR 210's to AI's 215 Trick Flow, but even then, why not let AI do a set of AFR 210's and then compare them with the Trick Flow....
I think I'm just crazy.....
Wouldn't it make more sense to compare a similar cc head??? I could see a set of cnc AFR 210's to AI's 215 Trick Flow, but even then, why not let AI do a set of AFR 210's and then compare them with the Trick Flow....
I think I'm just crazy.....
12-10-2010, 10:51 AM
#59
I had a bad experience many years ago with ported LT1 castings... I picked up a second set of LT1 heads and had them equipped with larger valve seats to fit big 2.055” intake valves; got a beautiful 5-angle valve job done, full port job of runners, etc. Problem was they took too much material off and created an opening through one intake runner backing into a bolt hole. That bolt hole was bored and sleeved. I didn’t feel good about these heads considering the amount of money I was dropping in them so I decided to put on the brakes and sell them as is (without any valves or valve train components).
Next I went out and found a set of bare LT4 GM castings along with matching LT4 intake manifold. My plan was to have these LT4 heads fully reworked and I started inquiring to other local shops as well as some popular US based head porters (I can’t recall if AI or Lloyd’s name came up – this was like 2005 maybe???). Anyways, after doing some rough pricing I quickly realised that turning these bare LT4 heads into what I was envisioning was quickly going to cost me closer to 2 grand instead of just $1k (I had core shipping to the US to factor in which isn’t cheap unfortunately; cost of larger valve seat install and valve job, porting, machining, plus cost of ALL valvetrain components, etc…) I shelved these heads and concentrated my time (and money) on my engine build simply knowing that I would be going with “some” 54-55cc chambered head eventually.
When publicity of the new AFR Eliminators broke I started to follow the articles and discussions. Once I began looking at the prices it just seemed to be a better idea to buy a brand new manufactured and 100% complete head, from one shop. That piece of mind – and no guesswork – was the biggest value to me. If I ended up receiving a head that was off or wrong or flawed I knew I could send it right back to the guy’s who built the damn thing, without ANY excuses (like casting limitations/flaws, or “the problem was your heads in the first place”, etc).
I paid just under $2,500 US for my AFR 210 comp Eliminators (#1101). Full CNC port job, big 2.08”/1.60” valves but also lighter weight (8mm valves stems based on LSX architecture), all locks, retainers, guides, and upgraded dual valve springs (measuring close to 160lbs closed and nearly 420lbs open – those were our measurements). Out of the box they were beautiful and even thought they came “ready to bolt on” my builder did a full re&re just to make sure everything was perfect. I probably went a bit overboard with these heads but my goals were to have ZERO guesswork and also have a good base for future modification when I inevitably move to a wilder setup.
I did a quick look into AI’s website and the most comparable offering I could find was their Trick Flow aftermarket based 215 CNC ported heads complete with similar sized 2.08/1.60 valves, valve train, and springs (albeit different brands). That package (no cam) is advertised for $2,495.
I have no doubt the above AI package is killer. I’m also sure AI and Lloyd’s factory ported offerings are fantastic as well. I agree with the comments that for most people a factory based casting is more than enough to work with. That probably would have been more than enough for my current 383 setup. Personally, I wanted something really nice for my car – and a good base for future modification*. And I wanted zero guesswork and piece of mind. People in this same situation will find that when you do the math the cost of buying a top of the line AFR head complete and “bolt on ready” really ends up being not too far off the cost of a radically re-worked factory casting (to the limit type work) or an “as cast” aftermarket head with a lot of 3rd party work put into it (like AI’s offering above).
Heck, the AFR 195cc comp Eliminators which probably have the most surprising performance considering they are a 195cc runner, retail for $2,000 complete if I’m not mistaken. For that price, you might be able to find a near maxed out factory/GM based casting package that will offer similar performance - PLUS a camshaft! (don't forget the free cam) This seems to be the biggest lure... When deciding on a set of heads, a "free cam" is not going to change what the heads in that package are or what they are capable of. I wouldn't even factor a free cam into the cost of a head package (personally) - if I'm going to need a cam I'm going to need a cam, period. I'm prepared to spend the $300 or so bucks... but that's just me.
I'd be more interested to say to the head porter I already have a cam/don't need one; what more can you offer/do to these heads for me in lieu of the cam... think I'd be able to get the $200-$300 more expensive valves FOR FREE, or pay $200-$300 LESS than the advertised package price for not taking the cam??? If yes, then THAT is a real value to consider, and a value I for one would put directly towards the heads themselves.
Next I went out and found a set of bare LT4 GM castings along with matching LT4 intake manifold. My plan was to have these LT4 heads fully reworked and I started inquiring to other local shops as well as some popular US based head porters (I can’t recall if AI or Lloyd’s name came up – this was like 2005 maybe???). Anyways, after doing some rough pricing I quickly realised that turning these bare LT4 heads into what I was envisioning was quickly going to cost me closer to 2 grand instead of just $1k (I had core shipping to the US to factor in which isn’t cheap unfortunately; cost of larger valve seat install and valve job, porting, machining, plus cost of ALL valvetrain components, etc…) I shelved these heads and concentrated my time (and money) on my engine build simply knowing that I would be going with “some” 54-55cc chambered head eventually.
When publicity of the new AFR Eliminators broke I started to follow the articles and discussions. Once I began looking at the prices it just seemed to be a better idea to buy a brand new manufactured and 100% complete head, from one shop. That piece of mind – and no guesswork – was the biggest value to me. If I ended up receiving a head that was off or wrong or flawed I knew I could send it right back to the guy’s who built the damn thing, without ANY excuses (like casting limitations/flaws, or “the problem was your heads in the first place”, etc).
I paid just under $2,500 US for my AFR 210 comp Eliminators (#1101). Full CNC port job, big 2.08”/1.60” valves but also lighter weight (8mm valves stems based on LSX architecture), all locks, retainers, guides, and upgraded dual valve springs (measuring close to 160lbs closed and nearly 420lbs open – those were our measurements). Out of the box they were beautiful and even thought they came “ready to bolt on” my builder did a full re&re just to make sure everything was perfect. I probably went a bit overboard with these heads but my goals were to have ZERO guesswork and also have a good base for future modification when I inevitably move to a wilder setup.
I did a quick look into AI’s website and the most comparable offering I could find was their Trick Flow aftermarket based 215 CNC ported heads complete with similar sized 2.08/1.60 valves, valve train, and springs (albeit different brands). That package (no cam) is advertised for $2,495.
I have no doubt the above AI package is killer. I’m also sure AI and Lloyd’s factory ported offerings are fantastic as well. I agree with the comments that for most people a factory based casting is more than enough to work with. That probably would have been more than enough for my current 383 setup. Personally, I wanted something really nice for my car – and a good base for future modification*. And I wanted zero guesswork and piece of mind. People in this same situation will find that when you do the math the cost of buying a top of the line AFR head complete and “bolt on ready” really ends up being not too far off the cost of a radically re-worked factory casting (to the limit type work) or an “as cast” aftermarket head with a lot of 3rd party work put into it (like AI’s offering above).
Heck, the AFR 195cc comp Eliminators which probably have the most surprising performance considering they are a 195cc runner, retail for $2,000 complete if I’m not mistaken. For that price, you might be able to find a near maxed out factory/GM based casting package that will offer similar performance - PLUS a camshaft! (don't forget the free cam) This seems to be the biggest lure... When deciding on a set of heads, a "free cam" is not going to change what the heads in that package are or what they are capable of. I wouldn't even factor a free cam into the cost of a head package (personally) - if I'm going to need a cam I'm going to need a cam, period. I'm prepared to spend the $300 or so bucks... but that's just me.
I'd be more interested to say to the head porter I already have a cam/don't need one; what more can you offer/do to these heads for me in lieu of the cam... think I'd be able to get the $200-$300 more expensive valves FOR FREE, or pay $200-$300 LESS than the advertised package price for not taking the cam??? If yes, then THAT is a real value to consider, and a value I for one would put directly towards the heads themselves.
