Keep the Darts or go AI TFS
 

Trying to sort through my options, I have a set of the Dart Pro 1s 200cc heads now, they have a basic port job by LME, all the standard hardware that came from Dart is still all there. They flowed 288/212, car made 415RWHP SAE through a 12 Bolt and an off the shelf CC306 cam, I am sure the set up it self has a bit more in it, but we haven't messed with it since the initial tune. I have a 398 that's at HKE getting refreshed and also have a pretty nice single plane intake set up that I bought from Jason Short, it's currently at Nitro Dave's for a Spray Bar. Far as any goals go, I am really hoping to break the 500rwhp mark using a hydraulic roller on the 398 NA with the single plane. Now on one hand I could keep the Darts and put more money in them, or sell them and buy a set of AI Trick Flows. The way to go would have been buying the Darts bare, but to redo them now, not sure its going to be worth the cost or end up costing more. Brady's car makes great power with the Darts, just trying to figure out whats going to be cost effective

what valves are in the darts now? There are a few really nice cnc programs that could go into those heads

Neil, if it were me, I'd jump to the AI Trickflow's. You would really be able to take full advantage of their (AI) already great perfoming head with that sick intake setup ;)

Wicked,

The Darts have the 2.02" Intake and 1.60" Exhaust combo that they came with, that wasn't touched.

Jason, switching would be easiest, car wouldn't be down for very long either, just selling the darts may be a pain.

after seeing thunderchicken's dyno results, i'd be all all over the 21*'s. should be pretty easy to hit 500 with the single plane

His car is knocking down some serious power and my end set up would be similar in a lot of ways, similar cubes, compression, both T56s and both 12 Bolt cars.

I would call Chad Speier and see if he has a CNC program or have him hand port those darts.

JMO dont jump on the lastest fad band wagon. The Darts are very capable castings. I would get them ported.

Comments like that are an excellent example of how these perfectly reasonable threads turn into downward spirals. There is nothing "fad" about a company that has proven results for years just because someone made a reference to their latest results. Leave emotion out of it.

Neil, you know what to do. No matter what heads you decide to go with, only take advice on your build from people who actually own or have built similar motors to what you are looking for (power goal, driveability, etc..). The only way to ensure your goals will be met is to listen to the facts, not opinions.

^This and

^this

We can agree to disagree then Jason. Spiraling the thread was hardly my intent. I was simply giving my honest opinion.

I know Neil knows more than enough to make informed decisions and wasn't insinuating otherwise either.

It happens allll the time that builds get copied after "flavor of the week" parts.

He already has very capable castings. Why does it bother someone when AI may not have the CNC programs or hasn't performend the development on that particular head...

Are we all supposed to only run what AI produces?

I'm going to send and LS set of heads to AI more than likely myself so I'm not biased against them. Lets just be objective here...

To recap, I think he has a good set of castings and could choose many porters (Eric Bradby, Chad Speier, Craig @ GTP, etc etc) to work them over and produce EXCELLENT results. I'm sorry if the fact that this statement doesnt include the words advanced induction offends anyone. Its the simple truth

A head with 288cfm of airflow and a good chamber design can hit the 500rwhp mark with a good cam and a single plane intake. Basically you'd need to hit the 575 mark on an engine dyno. See if anyone has used those heads on an sbc to hit that mark.

No worries, I am not disagreeing with your above statement. I completely agree that there are a handful of outstanding head porters that have proven results with the LT1 engine. I ran a set of AFR's back in the early 2000's ported by an individual that no one knows and had excellent track/dyno numbers....even by todays standards. I'd love to have those heads back and would run them on my motor today. I am not saying that AI is the only way to go, nor have I ever.

However, AI has more than enough solid results with their heads and Neil's specific question was in regards to their product. Just because the reference was made to the latest results by Thunderchicken, doesn't mean that AI's product is a fad. That is all I am getting at. I've learned in building many LT1's that I don't want to be someone's guinea pig. When building a "non run-of-the-mill" motor, there is a logial way of reducing/eliminating variables that would get in the way of having a "successful" (ie., the owners goals) build.

Now, if you have the time, money, and resources....by all means, dig into that R&D :D

So Neil, the heads you're contemplating, they are 21 degree? Are there considerations on piston/valve clearance on high lift cams when switching valve angle? Just wondering. I'm glad to see you're investing in the LT1 :) As the weather gets better, I'll be installing my own ported TFS heads (23 degree versions). Looking forward to you, Jason and myself getting our cars where we want them and on the road/strip. :)

The Darts are a good set of heads, Brady's car makes great power with them and I think if I took Brady's route and started with a bare casting and let the head porter pick the components it would have been better way to go and probably cheaper in the end. The problem it comes down to is, not really if the Darts a good head, it's whats going to make more sense at this point cost wise. Spend the cash or cut losses and get the heads that make the power I want as is.

Dave,

The TFS 23 are another option, at this point I'd like to drive it with the heads and cam set up it has as is and enjoy the car. It's been down so much trying to get the set up right, swapping parts, tune over the last 3 years I just want to drive it for a little bit. But the 398, nitrous and getting it repainted are all apart of the plan to finish the car.

There are HUNDREDS of excellent head porting options outside of what exists on this forum. I know of a 220cc program that will drop into that dart head, it will run about 1100 bucks including new valves and spring setup. If you want to spend 2200 bucks on new heads I would put several heads above an Ai Trickflow.

Since what you have is already somewhat ported I believe that ruins them as CNC cores. I believe it messes up the tool path and causes the tool to chatter.

This is true and not true. If the operator drops the head in touches off and starts the program and walks away yes it could cause chatter because the depth of the cut is not the same as what the program says its suppose to be. Feeds and speeds will be different. BUT if you watch the the machine you can adjust your feeds and speeds as needed. Yes this will be more labor intensive but your getting charged for it either way.

As for the OP, those 21* trickflow heads made some serious power, but before I jump to wanting a set (whoever may port them) Id like to see some track results. As of right now I've found a couple dyno sheets but nothing from the track; that's the most important for me. Id like to see what Thunder chicken picks up from his previous combination at the track.

I personally love Dart heads Great performers straight out of the box & only get better with porting My cousin is running pro 1s on a sbc 355 alky motor & makin 600hp @ the flywheel No porting either If your goin single plane Keep the Darts & see what your #s are then IF ya want more port the bastards lol

They do have some port work done to them, looking at what used heads sell for, I am not sure I would get a whole lot selling the Darts is what I would fear.