Lt1 355 or 383 build
12-15-2015, 10:20 PM
#21
Op
Building a 355 or 383 and your last post on a possible twin turbo....have quite a difference in cost with the later considerably significant.
"building" the motor yourself beyond knowledge and experience in doing so, requires several specialty tools to do properly. This is beyond the machine work you would have a shop do. If you poses the skills and own the tools, great. With this said I would get a short block built either by a local competent builder or buy a built short block from someone like ERE of Mike Harris or Golen and get a head & cam package from Lloyd Elliott.
any build with other than stock head/cam or displacement will require a tune. For most basic builds a mail order will be fine, certainly for start up and initial use. I have had mail order only for various levels of bolt on to 383 H/C build.
Building a 355 or 383 and your last post on a possible twin turbo....have quite a difference in cost with the later considerably significant.
"building" the motor yourself beyond knowledge and experience in doing so, requires several specialty tools to do properly. This is beyond the machine work you would have a shop do. If you poses the skills and own the tools, great. With this said I would get a short block built either by a local competent builder or buy a built short block from someone like ERE of Mike Harris or Golen and get a head & cam package from Lloyd Elliott.
any build with other than stock head/cam or displacement will require a tune. For most basic builds a mail order will be fine, certainly for start up and initial use. I have had mail order only for various levels of bolt on to 383 H/C build.
12-15-2015, 10:54 PM
#22
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Why you say that have you bought a system from them or anything also I've seen pictures of a lt1's with coil packs so I figured it would be good to try since separate coils are better than one the dwell time is far better
12-16-2015, 06:45 AM
#24
Even when it was still around Delteq was a poor choice and LTCC was better if you just had to have such a thing, but today 24x would be better but still pointless for most.
Last edited by 96capricemgr; 12-16-2015 at 09:27 PM.
12-16-2015, 09:20 AM
#25
TECH Regular
I have been playing with this platform for over 15 years and manage to make 4200lbs go mid 11s with a crappy single coil and delco opti. I might know something about this stuff.
Even when it was still are nd Delteq was a poor choice and LTCC was better if you just had to have such a thing, but today 24x would be better but still pointless for most.
Even when it was still are nd Delteq was a poor choice and LTCC was better if you just had to have such a thing, but today 24x would be better but still pointless for most.
Moochdog, your statements are sort of confusing. In one sentence you state you'd like twin turbos, then in another you say you're considering a 355 or 383 build.
The motor you'd have to put together to support a twin turbo setup is much different and a LOT more expensive than one you'd build for NA purposes. If you're starting with a car that is stock or close to stock, doing a twin turbo setup the right way is going to cost $15,000 to $20,000+ and that figure assumes nothing significant goes wrong along the way. Such a setup would be capable of somewhere between 650 and 750whp on pump fuel and more on race gas, depending on a number of factors.
A well-executed NA street-oriented build making 400-450whp, including a shortblock rebuild and capable of mid-11 second dragstrip performance at around 120mph can be done on a stock car for probably between $7,000 and $10,000. Of that, you're looking at probably $3,000 in machining, labor and parts for an assembled shortblock. A good set of ported heads with appropriate camshaft and valvetrain is $1500-$2500. You're looking at probably around $1200 for long tube headers and full exhaust. Another thousand or thereabouts for injectors, a cold-air intake kit, fuel pump, new water pump, and other incidentals. This all assumes you do pretty much everything except the shortblock assembly yourself.
You'll also need a minimum of a $500 clutch (if the car is a manual) or a $500 converter and maybe a transmission build if the car is an automatic. And the manual car will need a rear end upgrade ($2000) sooner than later.
It adds up.
12-16-2015, 05:56 PM
#26
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Agree completely. A factory optispark in good working order is easily sufficient for 90% of LT builds out there. Only way I'd swap is probably if I were doing an aftermarket ECM as well, which my car is far from needing.
Moochdog, your statements are sort of confusing. In one sentence you state you'd like twin turbos, then in another you say you're considering a 355 or 383 build.
The motor you'd have to put together to support a twin turbo setup is much different and a LOT more expensive than one you'd build for NA purposes. If you're starting with a car that is stock or close to stock, doing a twin turbo setup the right way is going to cost $15,000 to $20,000+ and that figure assumes nothing significant goes wrong along the way. Such a setup would be capable of somewhere between 650 and 750whp on pump fuel and more on race gas, depending on a number of factors.
A well-executed NA street-oriented build making 400-450whp, including a shortblock rebuild and capable of mid-11 second dragstrip performance at around 120mph can be done on a stock car for probably between $7,000 and $10,000. Of that, you're looking at probably $3,000 in machining, labor and parts for an assembled shortblock. A good set of ported heads with appropriate camshaft and valvetrain is $1500-$2500. You're looking at probably around $1200 for long tube headers and full exhaust. Another thousand or thereabouts for injectors, a cold-air intake kit, fuel pump, new water pump, and other incidentals. This all assumes you do pretty much everything except the shortblock assembly yourself.
You'll also need a minimum of a $500 clutch (if the car is a manual) or a $500 converter and maybe a transmission build if the car is an automatic. And the manual car will need a rear end upgrade ($2000) sooner than later.
It adds up.
Moochdog, your statements are sort of confusing. In one sentence you state you'd like twin turbos, then in another you say you're considering a 355 or 383 build.
The motor you'd have to put together to support a twin turbo setup is much different and a LOT more expensive than one you'd build for NA purposes. If you're starting with a car that is stock or close to stock, doing a twin turbo setup the right way is going to cost $15,000 to $20,000+ and that figure assumes nothing significant goes wrong along the way. Such a setup would be capable of somewhere between 650 and 750whp on pump fuel and more on race gas, depending on a number of factors.
A well-executed NA street-oriented build making 400-450whp, including a shortblock rebuild and capable of mid-11 second dragstrip performance at around 120mph can be done on a stock car for probably between $7,000 and $10,000. Of that, you're looking at probably $3,000 in machining, labor and parts for an assembled shortblock. A good set of ported heads with appropriate camshaft and valvetrain is $1500-$2500. You're looking at probably around $1200 for long tube headers and full exhaust. Another thousand or thereabouts for injectors, a cold-air intake kit, fuel pump, new water pump, and other incidentals. This all assumes you do pretty much everything except the shortblock assembly yourself.
You'll also need a minimum of a $500 clutch (if the car is a manual) or a $500 converter and maybe a transmission build if the car is an automatic. And the manual car will need a rear end upgrade ($2000) sooner than later.
It adds up.
12-17-2015, 02:07 PM
#27
TECH Regular
If you want the most result for the least money spent, your best bet is to do long tube headers and full exhaust, cold air intake. For the engine rebuild just do a basic rebuild with some decent Mahle powerpack pistons and forged rods with ARP bolts everywhere. The stock crank is extremely durable, no need to upgrade that. You can get the stock heads very lightly cleaned up, maybe a valve job but I wouldn't chance much more than that unless your head guy really knows LT heads, and not many do. Shoot for a static compression ratio around 11.5. It's much easier for most people to ruin a set of LT heads than to get much more out of them. Then get a good camshaft and valvetrain package. Don't forget a dyno tune.
Such could be done for probably under $5000 if you do most of the leg work yourself. You'll still need a decent clutch (for a manual) or a nice converter for an auto.
If you do everything right, the result will be a car that is dramatically faster (100+rwhp stronger than what you have now) and still street friendly. This is also a good place to start because further down the road you can upgrade to a nice set of ported heads (AI or LE) and a slightly larger camshaft for another significant bump in power.
After that it's all money, and lots of it. More than most college students I've ever known can afford.
Such could be done for probably under $5000 if you do most of the leg work yourself. You'll still need a decent clutch (for a manual) or a nice converter for an auto.
If you do everything right, the result will be a car that is dramatically faster (100+rwhp stronger than what you have now) and still street friendly. This is also a good place to start because further down the road you can upgrade to a nice set of ported heads (AI or LE) and a slightly larger camshaft for another significant bump in power.
After that it's all money, and lots of it. More than most college students I've ever known can afford.
12-20-2015, 05:55 PM
#28
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If you want the most result for the least money spent, your best bet is to do long tube headers and full exhaust, cold air intake. For the engine rebuild just do a basic rebuild with some decent Mahle powerpack pistons and forged rods with ARP bolts everywhere. The stock crank is extremely durable, no need to upgrade that. You can get the stock heads very lightly cleaned up, maybe a valve job but I wouldn't chance much more than that unless your head guy really knows LT heads, and not many do. Shoot for a static compression ratio around 11.5. It's much easier for most people to ruin a set of LT heads than to get much more out of them. Then get a good camshaft and valvetrain package. Don't forget a dyno tune.
Such could be done for probably under $5000 if you do most of the leg work yourself. You'll still need a decent clutch (for a manual) or a nice converter for an auto.
If you do everything right, the result will be a car that is dramatically faster (100+rwhp stronger than what you have now) and still street friendly. This is also a good place to start because further down the road you can upgrade to a nice set of ported heads (AI or LE) and a slightly larger camshaft for another significant bump in power.
After that it's all money, and lots of it. More than most college students I've ever known can afford.
Such could be done for probably under $5000 if you do most of the leg work yourself. You'll still need a decent clutch (for a manual) or a nice converter for an auto.
If you do everything right, the result will be a car that is dramatically faster (100+rwhp stronger than what you have now) and still street friendly. This is also a good place to start because further down the road you can upgrade to a nice set of ported heads (AI or LE) and a slightly larger camshaft for another significant bump in power.
After that it's all money, and lots of it. More than most college students I've ever known can afford.
12-20-2015, 07:28 PM
#29
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I went 355 a few years back put some good A.I 200cc heads and intake on with an aggressive cam made 390 at the wheels for less than $5k. Machine shop bill was around $2300 for the block work and balancing etc..I assembled the motor in my garage with a good torque wrench some specialty measuring tools and a lot of help from reading forums on this site.
Also, if you plan on boosting down the road dont bother going 355 imo, your going to need a stout bottom end in order to really turn the boost up. Build this motor in mind that your going to get bored with it and want to go faster next year.
Also, if you plan on boosting down the road dont bother going 355 imo, your going to need a stout bottom end in order to really turn the boost up. Build this motor in mind that your going to get bored with it and want to go faster next year.
12-20-2015, 07:44 PM
#30
Stock crank is stout enough for all but the wildest builds so boost down the road is no reason to replace the crank now. I don't think in my 15 years on LT1 based forums I have seen a single case of an overpowered stock crank. That said once buying a crank it will usually make sense to go 3.75" but strength of the bottomend is not a reason for that.
12-22-2015, 08:00 PM
#32
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So best power for Buck is a nice cam good flowing heads and a turbo or procharger will do just as good for a start what's a good company to buy engine parts from
12-22-2015, 10:51 PM
#33
TECH Regular
In short, there is no such thing as a cheap LT1-based blower setup.
12-22-2015, 11:42 PM
#34
You would only need to drop the compression ratio to 9-9.5:1 for a street car running pump gas. Going lower than that is only necessary if you plan on making absurd power.
Stock crank, Scat I-beams (4340 with the 7/16" ARPs), and some forged Mahles will get the job done if you keep the RPMs down. At that point the limitation is the 2-bolt mains. If you could get your hands on a Vette block for cheap it would be worth it because the 4-bolt conversion will run around $600 typically.
Stock crank, Scat I-beams (4340 with the 7/16" ARPs), and some forged Mahles will get the job done if you keep the RPMs down. At that point the limitation is the 2-bolt mains. If you could get your hands on a Vette block for cheap it would be worth it because the 4-bolt conversion will run around $600 typically.
12-23-2015, 06:22 AM
#35
As said boost and budget don't mix on lt1s, at least normally. In theory you could go super conservative on the tune and keep rpms low and stay stock shortblock, there was a guy who did 9s with a stock long block, but the lt1 for some reason doesn't hold up as well as the 5.3 and 4.8 stock for stock. But the stock crank is a good piece, you could do forged 6" rods, forged pistons, and be fine, but that costs money. Check out Denmah's threads on budget boost builds. https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...2-13-13-a.html
You don't need cubes if you are doing boost, so I would drop the 383 idea and use the stock crank.
You don't need cubes if you are doing boost, so I would drop the 383 idea and use the stock crank.
12-23-2015, 10:45 AM
#36
TECH Regular
You would only need to drop the compression ratio to 9-9.5:1 for a street car running pump gas. Going lower than that is only necessary if you plan on making absurd power.
Stock crank, Scat I-beams (4340 with the 7/16" ARPs), and some forged Mahles will get the job done if you keep the RPMs down. At that point the limitation is the 2-bolt mains. If you could get your hands on a Vette block for cheap it would be worth it because the 4-bolt conversion will run around $600 typically.
Stock crank, Scat I-beams (4340 with the 7/16" ARPs), and some forged Mahles will get the job done if you keep the RPMs down. At that point the limitation is the 2-bolt mains. If you could get your hands on a Vette block for cheap it would be worth it because the 4-bolt conversion will run around $600 typically.
Then there's the blower or turbo kit itself, fuel system, heads, driveline, tuning, etc.
Saying a boosted LT setup is the "best horsepower for the money" is sort of relative. Sure, you can make a lot of power, but it takes a large sum of money to do so.
Moochdog if the car you're starting with is stock with little to no existing upgrades, you're simply not going to put together a reliable, good running boosted setup for any less than 10 to 12 grand, minimum. The shortblock and driveline upgrades alone will account for 7 or 8 grand of that.
Here's a breakdown:
$2500 - upgraded rear (12 bolt, 9 inch, S60 or the like)
$1000 - Twin Disc clutch
$1500 - transmission rebuild & upgrade (being stingy here, they can run much more than this)
$3500-$4000 - shortblock
$2500 - ported heads, camshaft and valvetrain.
$1500-$2500 - used supercharger or turbo kit. If you're lucky you might score some injectors and other fuel system components as part of this, otherwise you're looking at another....
$1000-$2000 for a fuel system.
$400-$800 for a dyno tune
So that's around $14,000 already, and takes into account no suspension or chassis upgrades that are wise to do when building a car capable of nearly three times it's original factory power output.
If this seems like "best horsepower for the money" to you, then by all means, dive on in and get out your wallet.
However if you'd like to realize some very nice gains in performance and not spend a sum that amounts to many people's annual mortgage costs, you could look at some of the other suggestions folks have offered.
Last edited by HellTeeOne; 12-23-2015 at 10:55 AM.
12-24-2015, 08:08 AM
#39
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You would only need to drop the compression ratio to 9-9.5:1 for a street car running pump gas. Going lower than that is only necessary if you plan on making absurd power.
Stock crank, Scat I-beams (4340 with the 7/16" ARPs), and some forged Mahles will get the job done if you keep the RPMs down. At that point the limitation is the 2-bolt mains. If you could get your hands on a Vette block for cheap it would be worth it because the 4-bolt conversion will run around $600 typically.
Stock crank, Scat I-beams (4340 with the 7/16" ARPs), and some forged Mahles will get the job done if you keep the RPMs down. At that point the limitation is the 2-bolt mains. If you could get your hands on a Vette block for cheap it would be worth it because the 4-bolt conversion will run around $600 typically.
This build lasted several years on a 200 wet shot, broke EVERYTHING in the driveline, and even took 80k miles of street abuse. And when I say abuse, I mean it gets driven like I hate it every time it comes out.
I just tore this one down for a rebuild because I broke the trans again on a nitrous pass, and it had a nitrous backfire taking out 1 cylinder and the head gasket. The rest of the engine still looked great.
It was such a great combo, I'm doing it again on the 4 bolt main Vette block I picked up. The difference being lower compression and dropping the nitrous for a turbo.
Oh, and still has an Opti.
12-24-2015, 08:11 AM
#40
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A lot of those prices were things that would have to be done to boost an LS car, too. Rear end, cost of the blower/turbo, trans, all of those are the same for either LT or LS.