Does YOUR Clutch Setup need a Shim?
07-18-2014, 11:59 PM
#161
Ok, I was referred here from the guys at Monster.
Here is my setup.
11" ceramic race clutch with the light flywheel
GTO T-56
Willwood 3/4 master
In a 95' 240sx
Once installed, I am having a really hard time getting it into gear. Master adjusted all the way out to give the most throw. Bench bled over and over (for some reason I think I may have been doing this wrong, but I kind of doubt it). When the car is on jack stands, running, in gear and clutch in, the wheels turn.
Measured the distances shown in this thread. 2 1/8" and 2 1/8". So I'm at 0.
Shimming, putting the slave closer, in turn pushing farther on the clutch forks seems like what I need. But, if I shim the slave, I would come up with a negative number, not the numbers you guys are getting.
Whats going on here?
Here is my setup.
11" ceramic race clutch with the light flywheel
GTO T-56
Willwood 3/4 master
In a 95' 240sx
Once installed, I am having a really hard time getting it into gear. Master adjusted all the way out to give the most throw. Bench bled over and over (for some reason I think I may have been doing this wrong, but I kind of doubt it). When the car is on jack stands, running, in gear and clutch in, the wheels turn.
Measured the distances shown in this thread. 2 1/8" and 2 1/8". So I'm at 0.
Shimming, putting the slave closer, in turn pushing farther on the clutch forks seems like what I need. But, if I shim the slave, I would come up with a negative number, not the numbers you guys are getting.
Whats going on here?
First, you cannot measure the slave/clutch assembly with a tape measure. It needs to be as accurate as possible, to +/- 0.010" at a minimum (needs to be +/- 0.001" honestly). That said, saying it's 2 1/8" for both measurements isn't being accurate enough. If that measurement is accurate when you use a caliper there is an issue, you cannot have both measurements the same. Make sure the slave cylinder is being fully compressed. You should have the spring off so make sure the plastic housing on the bearing assembly is actually touching the aluminum base, if it's not you will not get an accurate measurement.
Our Monsters are setup for factory pedal throw and fluid displacement, when you do a conversion car this obviously isn't going to be the same. You may have to make some "adjustments".
If after you've measured and the distance checks out and you're still having issues you'll need to run a larger bore master cylinder (to displace more fluid thus giving you more travel) or you will need to modify the pedal assembly for more throw. Keep in mind that increasing the bore size of the master will increase the pedal effort. You can also get the same size bore master if the stroke of said master is longer and the pedal assembly can accommodate said stroke.
After you get a hold of a set of digital calipers and you've remeasured making sure the slave/bearing is fully compressed give me a shout - my name is Steve and I'm the owner of Monster Clutch Co. and I'll be more than happy to help out with your setup.
07-27-2014, 12:26 PM
#163
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I'm working late so I figured I'd answer - about to head home though so I recommend giving me a shout in the morning when we open 10am CST.
First, you cannot measure the slave/clutch assembly with a tape measure. It needs to be as accurate as possible, to +/- 0.010" at a minimum (needs to be +/- 0.001" honestly). That said, saying it's 2 1/8" for both measurements isn't being accurate enough. If that measurement is accurate when you use a caliper there is an issue, you cannot have both measurements the same. Make sure the slave cylinder is being fully compressed. You should have the spring off so make sure the plastic housing on the bearing assembly is actually touching the aluminum base, if it's not you will not get an accurate measurement.
Our Monsters are setup for factory pedal throw and fluid displacement, when you do a conversion car this obviously isn't going to be the same. You may have to make some "adjustments".
If after you've measured and the distance checks out and you're still having issues you'll need to run a larger bore master cylinder (to displace more fluid thus giving you more travel) or you will need to modify the pedal assembly for more throw. Keep in mind that increasing the bore size of the master will increase the pedal effort. You can also get the same size bore master if the stroke of said master is longer and the pedal assembly can accommodate said stroke.
After you get a hold of a set of digital calipers and you've remeasured making sure the slave/bearing is fully compressed give me a shout - my name is Steve and I'm the owner of Monster Clutch Co. and I'll be more than happy to help out with your setup.
First, you cannot measure the slave/clutch assembly with a tape measure. It needs to be as accurate as possible, to +/- 0.010" at a minimum (needs to be +/- 0.001" honestly). That said, saying it's 2 1/8" for both measurements isn't being accurate enough. If that measurement is accurate when you use a caliper there is an issue, you cannot have both measurements the same. Make sure the slave cylinder is being fully compressed. You should have the spring off so make sure the plastic housing on the bearing assembly is actually touching the aluminum base, if it's not you will not get an accurate measurement.
Our Monsters are setup for factory pedal throw and fluid displacement, when you do a conversion car this obviously isn't going to be the same. You may have to make some "adjustments".
If after you've measured and the distance checks out and you're still having issues you'll need to run a larger bore master cylinder (to displace more fluid thus giving you more travel) or you will need to modify the pedal assembly for more throw. Keep in mind that increasing the bore size of the master will increase the pedal effort. You can also get the same size bore master if the stroke of said master is longer and the pedal assembly can accommodate said stroke.
After you get a hold of a set of digital calipers and you've remeasured making sure the slave/bearing is fully compressed give me a shout - my name is Steve and I'm the owner of Monster Clutch Co. and I'll be more than happy to help out with your setup.
You were super helpful earlier this year when I put my TR6060 in and had clutch hydraulic issues.
My question to you and Joey@Tick is, I have a TR6060 behind an LS1, and an LS1 Monster Clutch. The TR6060 does not have a removeable bellhousing, so one of those measurements of pressure plate fingers to back of bellhousing is nigh on impossible.
Ive been driving my car for about 600 miles with the new trans and my clutch pedal went dead. I will be doing a new slave, and figured I would re-measure when the trans is out just to make 100% sure but was unsure if there were different measurements that anyone knows of for running a TR6060?
07-28-2014, 10:41 AM
#164
Steve,
You were super helpful earlier this year when I put my TR6060 in and had clutch hydraulic issues.
My question to you and Joey@Tick is, I have a TR6060 behind an LS1, and an LS1 Monster Clutch. The TR6060 does not have a removeable bellhousing, so one of those measurements of pressure plate fingers to back of bellhousing is nigh on impossible.
Ive been driving my car for about 600 miles with the new trans and my clutch pedal went dead. I will be doing a new slave, and figured I would re-measure when the trans is out just to make 100% sure but was unsure if there were different measurements that anyone knows of for running a TR6060?
You were super helpful earlier this year when I put my TR6060 in and had clutch hydraulic issues.
My question to you and Joey@Tick is, I have a TR6060 behind an LS1, and an LS1 Monster Clutch. The TR6060 does not have a removeable bellhousing, so one of those measurements of pressure plate fingers to back of bellhousing is nigh on impossible.
Ive been driving my car for about 600 miles with the new trans and my clutch pedal went dead. I will be doing a new slave, and figured I would re-measure when the trans is out just to make 100% sure but was unsure if there were different measurements that anyone knows of for running a TR6060?
There is a way to measure those, you just have to be a bit more creative.
Give me a call and we'll go over it.
02-04-2015, 09:17 PM
#165
Just stumbled upon this post, I didn't quite see the clear explanation on the cushion. I saw the debate between 1/16", 1/8", 1/4"...the bottom line is you first want to ensure the bearing doesnt bottom which will cause excessive heat and bearing failure when the transmission is installed. This will also cause the clutch to be partially released and slip. I personally use 1/8"-3/8" like mentioned to allow expansion and clutch wear (fingers rise). Im my opinion 1/16" to an 1/8" is way tight! More cushion is better than less, but you have to think about travel as well. You don't want to the bearing to max out extenision as you will blow the seals in it.
Bottom line, you want enough cushion to prevent the bearing from bottoming out, but allow enough travel to dis-engage the clutch without reaching the full the extention.
I would suggest to always check and verify no matter the clutch or the manufacturer. Stock components are designed to work together, when you use aftermarket tolerences could vary.
Bottom line, you want enough cushion to prevent the bearing from bottoming out, but allow enough travel to dis-engage the clutch without reaching the full the extention.
I would suggest to always check and verify no matter the clutch or the manufacturer. Stock components are designed to work together, when you use aftermarket tolerences could vary.
02-19-2015, 11:33 PM
#166
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Putting together a new car with all new parts. 480HP LS3, T56 Magnum, SPEC Clutch, etc.
Anyway, the SPEC video says you can go up to .250 without needing their spacer.
The paper with the clutch kit says .175 to .225
Tick says ~3/16" to 1/8" and on the same page they also say 0.125 to 0.200.
So, here is the dilemma for me. I took many measurements all around and averaged them. I came up with .2208.
In the video, they measure their car and get .220 and say they do not need a spacer.
So, I am .0042 from needing the spacer going by the instructions with my clutch. However I am .0292 from needing the spacer from their video which gives you a link on the same piece of paper as the other spec.
And then this needs a spacer according to all of Ticks specs.
So, what to do? To top it off, the spacer they give me is pretty thick at about .1160. If I put that in, then I am going to drop down to .1048 which seems to be lower than any of those.
Advice?
I will call SPEC tomorrow and see what they have to say.
Anyway, the SPEC video says you can go up to .250 without needing their spacer.
The paper with the clutch kit says .175 to .225
Tick says ~3/16" to 1/8" and on the same page they also say 0.125 to 0.200.
So, here is the dilemma for me. I took many measurements all around and averaged them. I came up with .2208.
In the video, they measure their car and get .220 and say they do not need a spacer.
So, I am .0042 from needing the spacer going by the instructions with my clutch. However I am .0292 from needing the spacer from their video which gives you a link on the same piece of paper as the other spec.
And then this needs a spacer according to all of Ticks specs.
So, what to do? To top it off, the spacer they give me is pretty thick at about .1160. If I put that in, then I am going to drop down to .1048 which seems to be lower than any of those.
Advice?
I will call SPEC tomorrow and see what they have to say.
02-20-2015, 06:31 PM
#167
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I get a ton of PMs from guys asking if their clutch setups need to be shimmed and when I suggest measuring to be sure, their first response is usually "how?" To be as helpful as I can to everyone, I'm going to try and describe the measurement process. It's tough to do without pictures, but try and follow me here:
During your next clutch install, determine if your slave cylinder needs to be shimmed or not. To do so, you need to take two measurements:
If there is no difference between the two measurements, or if "B" is greater than "A", there could be a problem with clutch engagement which could result in premature clutch slip and eventually a total failure.
I'm proud to announce that Tick Performance is now making the use of shims even more precise by offering THREE difference thicknesses:
We're always in pursuit of new ways to get you guys shifting as quickly & efficiently as possible. Determining if your setup needs a shim or not is quick, easy and cheap way to ensure proper function and long life out of your next clutch.
Good luck guys!
During your next clutch install, determine if your slave cylinder needs to be shimmed or not. To do so, you need to take two measurements:
- Measurement "A" is the distance between the surface of the bellhousing that meets the transmission to the tip of the pressure plate fingers. To get an accurate measurement, the clutch must be torqued properly.
- Measurement "B" is the distance between the throwout bearing surface to the transmission surface that meets the bellhousing. To get an accurate measurement, the slave spring must be removed and the bearing must be fully seated at the bottom of it's travel; resting on the slave's base.
If there is no difference between the two measurements, or if "B" is greater than "A", there could be a problem with clutch engagement which could result in premature clutch slip and eventually a total failure.
I'm proud to announce that Tick Performance is now making the use of shims even more precise by offering THREE difference thicknesses:
- Tick Performance Slave Cylinder Shim (.055")
- Tick Performance Slave Cylinder Shim (.113")
- Tick Performance Slave Cylinder Shim (.180")
We're always in pursuit of new ways to get you guys shifting as quickly & efficiently as possible. Determining if your setup needs a shim or not is quick, easy and cheap way to ensure proper function and long life out of your next clutch.
Good luck guys!
The SPEC clutch I got
says .175 to .225 which makes more sense to me.
Also, is there any reason I can't just face off my own shims exactly the thickness I need out of aluminum on my lathe face plate? I see none, but all the sold ones seem to be steel. I assume this is just because it is cheaper than a machined aluminum one?
03-01-2015, 04:59 AM
#169
I'd shim it because I like 1/8" gap. But that's me, I shimmed my ls6 clutch and my ls7. I think that there are variations in the front plate so measure every time and shim it if you need it
03-02-2015, 10:17 AM
#171
The first FAQ tells people what we like to look for, no less than .0625" and no more than .200".
That said, this can vary some.
On the LT1-xx series you should almost never need a shim, ever. The only exception is if you're using an aftermarket bell housing.
What bell housing are you using?
03-02-2015, 01:00 PM
#172
http://monsterclutches.com/faq
The first FAQ tells people what we like to look for, no less than .0625" and no more than .200".
That said, this can vary some.
On the LT1-xx series you should almost never need a shim, ever. The only exception is if you're using an aftermarket bell housing.
What bell housing are you using?
The first FAQ tells people what we like to look for, no less than .0625" and no more than .200".
That said, this can vary some.
On the LT1-xx series you should almost never need a shim, ever. The only exception is if you're using an aftermarket bell housing.
What bell housing are you using?
03-02-2015, 01:47 PM
#173
I personally would not use a .180" shim. The slave is cupped to sit on the tranny. I would want to have that present to maintain alignment. I would be happy with .296 clearance,on my set up. I'm currently at .430". And I'm thinking of just using a .055" shim. As long as you have adequate stroke, no such thing as too much cushion
Btw, let me know if you sell any of those shims
03-02-2015, 01:49 PM
#175
I personally would not use a .180" shim. The slave is cupped to sit on the tranny. I would want to have that present to maintain alignment. I would be happy with .296 clearance,on my set up. I'm currently at .430". And I'm thinking of just using a .055" shim. As long as you have adequate stroke, no such thing as too much cushion
Btw, let me know if you sell any of those shims
Btw, let me know if you sell any of those shims
03-02-2015, 01:58 PM
#176
Yes, I'm using a quicktime as well as a slightly shorter ZR1 bearing. I have close to 1.00" piston travel on this slave. From resting height to finger/bell clearance, I have close to .550" travel before it bottoms out, but I also have a lot if cushion On the back end. With my last similar set-up, keislers spec was .125-.375". I was somewhere in the .2xx range, a .113" shim will satisfy me ar .280"ish
05-11-2015, 07:36 PM
#179
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So came across this thread and its been very useful. I bought a WS6 from a guy who said he just put a new flywheel and clutch in it but he thought still needed Master Cylinder. Pedal was sticking to floor, car would not hold engagement and start creeping forward when clutch did work (cold)
I put on a Tick master and mittyvac all the air out. Pedal has no pressure. So pulled tranny. Sure enough SPEC clutch is installed. I bought a new GM slave and Tick remote bleeder. Popping those on but anyhow thought I post pictures of my measurements. According to me the correct shim is already installed ?
A was 2" and 1/8th
B was 2"
Am I doing the measurements and math right ?
I put on a Tick master and mittyvac all the air out. Pedal has no pressure. So pulled tranny. Sure enough SPEC clutch is installed. I bought a new GM slave and Tick remote bleeder. Popping those on but anyhow thought I post pictures of my measurements. According to me the correct shim is already installed ?
A was 2" and 1/8th
B was 2"
Am I doing the measurements and math right ?
05-12-2015, 01:05 AM
#180
Not sure what to do. I have 98 Z28. Built and LS3 416, have a speck billet steel flywheel, McLeod RXT, stock slave, Quicktime bell, T56 Magnum, MeLeod adjustable master and line. I forgot to measure mine and put it together. Found the tick remote bleeder giving me two reasons to take it a part. I measured .085 clearance, so I looked around and called D&D. Got that I should be .125 to .200 to allow for wear. They sold a .250 trans spacer, but I got a piece of .125 aluminum sheet and made a spacer. Got .210 and bolted it back together thinking I was fine. Now I'm not really sure and would rather not have to do it in the car. I'd rather e a tad loose as I don't want to have a built in slip. I can adjust my master, so as long as I won't over extended the slave I'm not to worried. The only other issue would be having to have the pedal shoved against the floor every time to shift as that would get old.
What do you all think? I should have probably grabbed some .090" sheet to make the shim for a .175 clearance.
What do you all think? I should have probably grabbed some .090" sheet to make the shim for a .175 clearance.