SSR Fbody T56 hybrid project (1000hp on stock parts?)
02-26-2018, 07:26 AM
#241
On The Tree
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, WA
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SRR parts I got a NOS SSR tail shaft housing a few years ago to do this conversation. The thread popped up again and reminded me about this project. Week ago Ordered and received a SSR shaft. decided to go a different route. I have until Friday of this week to return the shaft. If anyone is interested PM me.
ElQue good luck with your project.
ElQue good luck with your project.
Well I bought what I believe to be the last SSR T56 mainshaft in the world that was available to purchase. Should be here in a few days.
I also picked up a C5 NON Z06 trans for the internals. I'm going to build one of these hybrid T56s and see just how far it can be pushed. The T56 I have been running had the common 3/4 synchro key failure so I figured I'd upgrade it all the way while I have it apart.
It would really be nice if someone from the aftermarket stepped up to supply the SSR mainshafts. I know alot of people go Magnum or TR6060, but with the clutching teeth being so much smaller and less forgiving of miss shifts, all the other "strengths" they have over the T56 seem to be negated.
This hybrid T56 I'm about to build should be tested quite well in the 5,000 pound pickup it's going in with a turbo 6.0 making 550-600 HP. Eventually I'd like to up the boost and go for somewhere around 700-800. Will the T56 last? Who knows. I'll also be adding a pump eventually. Going to go ahead and weld a bung and sprayer fitting in the case while it's apart to spray oil at the headset gears being input and the cluster. That really seems to be the weak link once all the other areas have been addressed.
I also picked up a C5 NON Z06 trans for the internals. I'm going to build one of these hybrid T56s and see just how far it can be pushed. The T56 I have been running had the common 3/4 synchro key failure so I figured I'd upgrade it all the way while I have it apart.
It would really be nice if someone from the aftermarket stepped up to supply the SSR mainshafts. I know alot of people go Magnum or TR6060, but with the clutching teeth being so much smaller and less forgiving of miss shifts, all the other "strengths" they have over the T56 seem to be negated.
This hybrid T56 I'm about to build should be tested quite well in the 5,000 pound pickup it's going in with a turbo 6.0 making 550-600 HP. Eventually I'd like to up the boost and go for somewhere around 700-800. Will the T56 last? Who knows. I'll also be adding a pump eventually. Going to go ahead and weld a bung and sprayer fitting in the case while it's apart to spray oil at the headset gears being input and the cluster. That really seems to be the weak link once all the other areas have been addressed.
02-26-2018, 02:47 PM
#242
When I was in the 3000GT VR4 scene, which is a true enthusiasts platform, a lot of our "afterarket" parts were made by the platform members, since there was piratically zero commercial aftermarket support. Since the VR4 is all wheel drive & all wheel steering, we had a lot of shafts, lol... Those in the platform with the CAD knowledge and CNC hookups, created our shafts out of 300M (4340M)... the **** is practically indestructible! Why isn't this use in T56 mods?
02-27-2018, 05:24 PM
#244
Yeah, but it would be nice if the SSR mainshaft was repopped by someone. It's probably overkill for most people, but if you have a heavy fullsize truck with boost it might be worthwhile!
02-27-2018, 06:27 PM
#245
9 Second Club
How much would a full custom mainshaft be though, it really isnt a small part so bound to be expensive.
But in general parts for the older boxes are just getting harder to find. And when a new Magnum can be as low as $3000 or so, they do represent very good value for a strong gearbox.
But in general parts for the older boxes are just getting harder to find. And when a new Magnum can be as low as $3000 or so, they do represent very good value for a strong gearbox.
02-28-2018, 12:10 AM
#246
Yeah, you're right there. I was thinking a person could get the material, whatever that alloy would be and spin it down on a lathe, then cut or roll the splines into it. I have machine shop experience from tech school days way back in high school, just don't have a lathe of my own.
Also true. I almost went Magnum this time around, but didn't because of all the horror stories I've read about the smaller clutching teeth being less forgiving of missed shifts. That's what made me decide to stick it out (heh, what a pun) with the T56.
Post #14 is what pushed me into sticking with the T56
https://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-tr...vs-tr6060.html
Also true. I almost went Magnum this time around, but didn't because of all the horror stories I've read about the smaller clutching teeth being less forgiving of missed shifts. That's what made me decide to stick it out (heh, what a pun) with the T56.
Post #14 is what pushed me into sticking with the T56
https://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-tr...vs-tr6060.html
02-28-2018, 05:20 AM
#247
9 Second Club
For most part I only found positives about the Magnum....I did find a few breakages but they seemed mostly confined to when the Magnum first appeared so maybe there were some issues.
But from a design point, the Magnum just seems better in every respect....and as such I bought one although still havent fitted it yet.
But from a design point, the Magnum just seems better in every respect....and as such I bought one although still havent fitted it yet.
03-01-2018, 01:26 PM
#248
Are you waiting for your T56 to blow up first or what?
Me and a buddy with a TIG got together last night and welded on a -6 AN fitting into the side of my T56 case. Placed it right where the TR6060 has 'em.
Me and a buddy with a TIG got together last night and welded on a -6 AN fitting into the side of my T56 case. Placed it right where the TR6060 has 'em.
03-01-2018, 01:34 PM
#249
9 Second Club
It's ******* baltic, I'm waiting for it to warm up ! lol
I bust 2 T56's last year, both 5th gear damage. Although current box is the faceplated one with 5th repaired. Magnum only arrived a couple of weeks ago, but it's currently around -3degC outside and feels like a windchill of around -300 and the garage isnt much warmer !
I'm in the middle of doing other work anyway, so no huge rush.....but it's just too damn cold this past few days.
I bust 2 T56's last year, both 5th gear damage. Although current box is the faceplated one with 5th repaired. Magnum only arrived a couple of weeks ago, but it's currently around -3degC outside and feels like a windchill of around -300 and the garage isnt much warmer !
I'm in the middle of doing other work anyway, so no huge rush.....but it's just too damn cold this past few days.
03-01-2018, 02:28 PM
#251
9 Second Club
Quite simply first time, the hub/slider exploded when trying to engage 5th for a 1/2 mile run. That probably shouldnt happen....I could in part blame the clutch though if not releasing fully. either way it was an unusual one.
2nd time was another runway job, this time 5th gear did engage ( stock T56 I keep as spare ) but at around 180mph or so the runway was quite bumpy and it just chewed all the teeth off 5th gear. Probably due to loss/regain of traction because of the surface.
Although I've always known a T56 would be on borrowed time, the main box I used had lasted quite a few years without issue....but losing 2 in 2 weeks was rather annoying.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-tr...tf-caused.html
04-02-2018, 12:56 PM
#252
I got the T56 hybrid together and back in the truck. Topped it off with an MGW shifter. This thing shifts soooooo smooth and nice. I expect it to last for a long time and be good up to 1000 RWHP
I hope someone in the aftermarket steps up in the not too distant future and starts filling the gap in the T56 market. I want to build another one of these hybrids. I'm just not going to the magnum for any future projects. Tremec can kiss my ***.
I hope someone in the aftermarket steps up in the not too distant future and starts filling the gap in the T56 market. I want to build another one of these hybrids. I'm just not going to the magnum for any future projects. Tremec can kiss my ***.
04-02-2018, 01:34 PM
#253
9 Second Club
But ultimately the Magnum is more.
the T56 is still a T56....yes a stronger mainshaft might make that stronger....but how many are breaking even Viper mainshafts ?
Perhaps most common failure for a T56 is input shaft ? or maybe some gears ? Or shift issues with the synchro or selector mech ?
All of the things that are improved with the Magnum. It really does make a lot of sense to upgrade instead of pumping a lot of money into the old T56 if you need it to tolerate 4 figure power.
That said I've just got mine up and running with the Magnum. It does shift, but TBH the gate is actually rather short, and that's with a stock shifter.
I wouldnt say it is super smooth by any means ( although it's like ******* heaven compared to the faceplated I had lol ) but so far it has selected gears well even on the few short blasts I've tried.
I'm sure it will improve with time too as it is literally brand new. Either way, I'm just so glad to be back with a synchro box.
the T56 is still a T56....yes a stronger mainshaft might make that stronger....but how many are breaking even Viper mainshafts ?
Perhaps most common failure for a T56 is input shaft ? or maybe some gears ? Or shift issues with the synchro or selector mech ?
All of the things that are improved with the Magnum. It really does make a lot of sense to upgrade instead of pumping a lot of money into the old T56 if you need it to tolerate 4 figure power.
That said I've just got mine up and running with the Magnum. It does shift, but TBH the gate is actually rather short, and that's with a stock shifter.
I wouldnt say it is super smooth by any means ( although it's like ******* heaven compared to the faceplated I had lol ) but so far it has selected gears well even on the few short blasts I've tried.
I'm sure it will improve with time too as it is literally brand new. Either way, I'm just so glad to be back with a synchro box.
04-02-2018, 02:37 PM
#254
I hear ya stevie....
I don't have personal first hand experience with a Magnum, but that post I linked above was enough to make me decide to dig in and stay T56 and not go Magnum... The T56 is now almost 30 years old. I'm hoping soon that it will become like a Muncie. You can build a new Muncie having never owned a single original part for one.... Tremec is the only game in town and they know it.... I wonder what would have happened if Borg Warner kept their rights to the T56 since they designed it???
You're right, the Magnum is more, but all the stuff that got bigger therefor stronger, gears bearings etc.... None of that really seemed like a weak link in the T56? To me anyways. Since everything got bigger inside but the case dimensions stayed the same something had to give? The clutching teeth were what gave. In my estimation it's all a wash at this point... Is one really better than the other comparing T56 to Magnum? IMO not really...
With the T56 it seems once you hit say 700 HP or so, and maybe less with a heavy vehicle and sticky tires, the weak point became the lack of fluid on the headset gears after addressing everything else of course.
You make a good point about the economics of the decision. I got a pretty "decent" deal on a Vette T56 donor which I have been selling parts off of that aren't needed in order to recoup costs. So, I think if a person is careful, or PATIENT might be the better word, it can be done and still make economic sense. Although I feel once we get into it this deep it's kinda like you better check your economic logic at the door anyways because you can't answer to multiple masters lol.
Why did you not like your faceplated box??? Yes I'm sure it will improve shift quality wise as you break it in and loosen up the new and tight parts in there.
I don't have personal first hand experience with a Magnum, but that post I linked above was enough to make me decide to dig in and stay T56 and not go Magnum... The T56 is now almost 30 years old. I'm hoping soon that it will become like a Muncie. You can build a new Muncie having never owned a single original part for one.... Tremec is the only game in town and they know it.... I wonder what would have happened if Borg Warner kept their rights to the T56 since they designed it???
You're right, the Magnum is more, but all the stuff that got bigger therefor stronger, gears bearings etc.... None of that really seemed like a weak link in the T56? To me anyways. Since everything got bigger inside but the case dimensions stayed the same something had to give? The clutching teeth were what gave. In my estimation it's all a wash at this point... Is one really better than the other comparing T56 to Magnum? IMO not really...
With the T56 it seems once you hit say 700 HP or so, and maybe less with a heavy vehicle and sticky tires, the weak point became the lack of fluid on the headset gears after addressing everything else of course.
You make a good point about the economics of the decision. I got a pretty "decent" deal on a Vette T56 donor which I have been selling parts off of that aren't needed in order to recoup costs. So, I think if a person is careful, or PATIENT might be the better word, it can be done and still make economic sense. Although I feel once we get into it this deep it's kinda like you better check your economic logic at the door anyways because you can't answer to multiple masters lol.
Why did you not like your faceplated box??? Yes I'm sure it will improve shift quality wise as you break it in and loosen up the new and tight parts in there.
04-02-2018, 02:51 PM
#255
9 Second Club
No, the weak points are as stated. Doesnt matter how much oil you fire at the head set...it wont stop the input shaft breaking, nor shearing the teeth off ( although it might help the latter a small amount )
And having broken both a synchro slider and chewed the teeth off 5th gear myself on 2 boxes 2 weeks apart....absolutely the T56 has weaknesses. Although I'd always expected the dog drive for the 5/6 laygear to be the weak link on my old T56...it never did break though.
There are places selling reproduced parts for the T56, but I'd doubt they are the same quality as Tremec. But it will bring repair costs down a bit. But even used T56's seem to be silly money for what they are....although of course they are still a good strong box if you have nothing.
The faceplated was great racing....just ******* horrible on the road. With a semi aggressive triple plate clutch, big heavy 2 piece prop, fully rose jointed 4-linked rear....that little bit it slop on where the gears/hubs mesh creates a surprisingly huge amount of lash every time power is applied and removed and when shifting.
It wasnt quite as horrible when I had an organic twin plate as it was easier to be more forgiving but it started slipping and with a view to maybe going to a drag strip again I opted for a clutch that would...should handle anything.
I'll know in a couple of weeks if 5th gear in this one is stronger lol ( if weather is dry )
And having broken both a synchro slider and chewed the teeth off 5th gear myself on 2 boxes 2 weeks apart....absolutely the T56 has weaknesses. Although I'd always expected the dog drive for the 5/6 laygear to be the weak link on my old T56...it never did break though.
There are places selling reproduced parts for the T56, but I'd doubt they are the same quality as Tremec. But it will bring repair costs down a bit. But even used T56's seem to be silly money for what they are....although of course they are still a good strong box if you have nothing.
The faceplated was great racing....just ******* horrible on the road. With a semi aggressive triple plate clutch, big heavy 2 piece prop, fully rose jointed 4-linked rear....that little bit it slop on where the gears/hubs mesh creates a surprisingly huge amount of lash every time power is applied and removed and when shifting.
It wasnt quite as horrible when I had an organic twin plate as it was easier to be more forgiving but it started slipping and with a view to maybe going to a drag strip again I opted for a clutch that would...should handle anything.
I'll know in a couple of weeks if 5th gear in this one is stronger lol ( if weather is dry )
04-02-2018, 03:04 PM
#256
Yup, I just have seen fewer of those failures from what searching around I've done on it. But I know they exist.
Any gearbox will have its weaknesses! That guy from the post I linked was of the opinion that the clutching teeth being smaller in the Magnum is certainly something to consider. That's all I'm sayin. Supposedly, this translates into the Magnum being stronger everywhere in general, but less forgiving of missed shifts as compared to a T56.
And if a person can build up one of these hybrids without dumping a ton of money into it? IMO that's the way I will always go. We all know the 450 LB/FT rating of the T56 was conservative. Perhaps a T56 hybrid with all the good parts could match or even surpass a Magnum? What are they rated at 700 I think??? Also likely super conservative numbers wise for a rating.
On the input shaft. How does the Viper T56 input compare to the typical LSx input, and the Magnum input do you know?
I've only ever bought 1 LSx T56. Always got LT1 style and converted them beaucse I could grab an LTx variant for super cheap comparatively.
Hmmm. That's interesting about the faceplated being so violent... I'd almost like it that way I think?
What I really want to try?? A Lenco...... Hell, I may sell the lot of T56s and T56 parts laying around and throw that cash into a sock drawer for a Lenco on the next project.
Any gearbox will have its weaknesses! That guy from the post I linked was of the opinion that the clutching teeth being smaller in the Magnum is certainly something to consider. That's all I'm sayin. Supposedly, this translates into the Magnum being stronger everywhere in general, but less forgiving of missed shifts as compared to a T56.
And if a person can build up one of these hybrids without dumping a ton of money into it? IMO that's the way I will always go. We all know the 450 LB/FT rating of the T56 was conservative. Perhaps a T56 hybrid with all the good parts could match or even surpass a Magnum? What are they rated at 700 I think??? Also likely super conservative numbers wise for a rating.
On the input shaft. How does the Viper T56 input compare to the typical LSx input, and the Magnum input do you know?
I've only ever bought 1 LSx T56. Always got LT1 style and converted them beaucse I could grab an LTx variant for super cheap comparatively.
Hmmm. That's interesting about the faceplated being so violent... I'd almost like it that way I think?
What I really want to try?? A Lenco...... Hell, I may sell the lot of T56s and T56 parts laying around and throw that cash into a sock drawer for a Lenco on the next project.
04-02-2018, 03:14 PM
#257
9 Second Club
Although those teeth may appear smaller...there are more of them and on a wider diameter. Ultimately that's going to be stronger.
And with a 700lbft rating from the factory vs a 450lbft for a T56....I'd trust in Tremec's abilities there.
We all know a T56 can tolerate far beyond 450....from that I would take the Magnum will tolerate well over 700lbft too. Most people reselling them "built" to whatever level are making claims of 900, 1000lbft and they arent actually doing anything to strengthen parts that handle the torque.
I dont believe the Viper input is any different than any GM input.
My only other consideration was a Samsonas sequential. But then it's back to dog engagement gears...and then I'd be forced to go thru all gears when driving, coming to a stop etc. As much as from a performance point of view it would probably help over 1/4 and 1/2 mile etc....it just wasnt enough for it to destroy the enjoyment of just having a car to drive. Which is exactly what the faceplated box did.
It isnt a race car, first and foremost it is a road car that I also use for some racing. Synchro Magnum was the winner lol
There just werent any other viable options aside from a 6 speed auto...but they dont build them strong enough and they're ******* massive which would open a whole other box of problems ( nevermind nobody seems to make a standalone controller for them )
And with a 700lbft rating from the factory vs a 450lbft for a T56....I'd trust in Tremec's abilities there.
We all know a T56 can tolerate far beyond 450....from that I would take the Magnum will tolerate well over 700lbft too. Most people reselling them "built" to whatever level are making claims of 900, 1000lbft and they arent actually doing anything to strengthen parts that handle the torque.
I dont believe the Viper input is any different than any GM input.
My only other consideration was a Samsonas sequential. But then it's back to dog engagement gears...and then I'd be forced to go thru all gears when driving, coming to a stop etc. As much as from a performance point of view it would probably help over 1/4 and 1/2 mile etc....it just wasnt enough for it to destroy the enjoyment of just having a car to drive. Which is exactly what the faceplated box did.
It isnt a race car, first and foremost it is a road car that I also use for some racing. Synchro Magnum was the winner lol
There just werent any other viable options aside from a 6 speed auto...but they dont build them strong enough and they're ******* massive which would open a whole other box of problems ( nevermind nobody seems to make a standalone controller for them )
04-02-2018, 04:49 PM
#258
That's what they say! I'm not sure I buy it though. I can't help it, I'm a skeptic lol.
Makes me wonder why so many are also skeptical about it. Including the posts below. There are more on YB and other places that I remember reading but I can't find at the moment.
I loled at what this guy said:
"Some guys with BRAND NEW cars, missing 1 or 2 shifts, grinding from there on out, F that for over 3 grand. The T56 magnum is bad *** for what it is, but it is not the end all be all like it was marketed as."
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=441704
https://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-tr...vs-tr6060.html
https://www.svtperformance.com/forum...l-pics.859371/
Viper T56 is apparently different
https://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-tr...put-shaft.html
So both times you had a problem with your prior T56s it was 5th gear both times right?
Makes me wonder why so many are also skeptical about it. Including the posts below. There are more on YB and other places that I remember reading but I can't find at the moment.
I loled at what this guy said:
"Some guys with BRAND NEW cars, missing 1 or 2 shifts, grinding from there on out, F that for over 3 grand. The T56 magnum is bad *** for what it is, but it is not the end all be all like it was marketed as."
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=441704
https://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-tr...vs-tr6060.html
https://www.svtperformance.com/forum...l-pics.859371/
Viper T56 is apparently different
https://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-tr...put-shaft.html
So both times you had a problem with your prior T56s it was 5th gear both times right?
04-02-2018, 05:23 PM
#259
9 Second Club
Both times 5th gear, correct. Although obviously as most here only do drag racing...that is of no concern.
1-4 are unlikely to break...although it still doesnt rule out input breakages.
If the Viper input is different...are genuine Tremec Viper input shafts available ( although that thread suggests they're a different length )
I see one place list it for nearly $400...but no stock. AMP list them for around $280....unsure whether genuine part or aftermarket.
I'd imagine if aftermarket it would not be as strong as the OEM part.
Nobody is saying a Magnum is magic or anything, but it has all the ingredients to be superior to an old T56.
1-4 are unlikely to break...although it still doesnt rule out input breakages.
If the Viper input is different...are genuine Tremec Viper input shafts available ( although that thread suggests they're a different length )
I see one place list it for nearly $400...but no stock. AMP list them for around $280....unsure whether genuine part or aftermarket.
I'd imagine if aftermarket it would not be as strong as the OEM part.
Nobody is saying a Magnum is magic or anything, but it has all the ingredients to be superior to an old T56.
04-03-2018, 04:43 PM
#260
Makes me wonder exactly how much punishment 5th and 6th gears can take safely?
What were you doing again when you broke it?
I think for me anyways, the most likely breakage would be from the fact that this box is in a heavy fullsize truck. ~5000 LBS or so. Which I think means the mainshaft would be the first suspect. Exactly why I built this one up with the 32 spline mainshaft.
No idea on the input. Don't think I'll ever need to worry about one anyways. From a quick glance they appear to be different.
I don't think OEM or aftermarket is neccessarily better one way or another. As a general rule of thumb I mean.
The Magnum only has 31 spline output as opposed to 32 for the SSR. I'm sure that matters not though
I don't like the 5th and 6th gear ratios the Magnum has either. I like the .5 6th ratio personally...
You running a Magnum and me running my SSR T56 hybrid really doesn't matter. We gotta stick together cuz not many are crazy enough like us to keep 3 pedals. Especially on this site EVERYONE is ate up with drag racing and autos.... We are even further in the minority since we're running forced induction AND still banging gears....
Me? I don't play favorites... I'm about halfway through building a 4L80 for a different project. I currently have 3 T56s and 2 4L80s
What were you doing again when you broke it?
I think for me anyways, the most likely breakage would be from the fact that this box is in a heavy fullsize truck. ~5000 LBS or so. Which I think means the mainshaft would be the first suspect. Exactly why I built this one up with the 32 spline mainshaft.
No idea on the input. Don't think I'll ever need to worry about one anyways. From a quick glance they appear to be different.
I don't think OEM or aftermarket is neccessarily better one way or another. As a general rule of thumb I mean.
The Magnum only has 31 spline output as opposed to 32 for the SSR. I'm sure that matters not though
I don't like the 5th and 6th gear ratios the Magnum has either. I like the .5 6th ratio personally...
You running a Magnum and me running my SSR T56 hybrid really doesn't matter. We gotta stick together cuz not many are crazy enough like us to keep 3 pedals. Especially on this site EVERYONE is ate up with drag racing and autos.... We are even further in the minority since we're running forced induction AND still banging gears....
Me? I don't play favorites... I'm about halfway through building a 4L80 for a different project. I currently have 3 T56s and 2 4L80s