Re-Occurring Clutch Disengagement Problems
02-03-2017, 01:42 PM
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Re-Occurring Clutch Disengagement Problems I am having clutch disengagement problems every month or so.
Part List:
Stock 4th gen clutch pedals
GM Performance Slave
Tick Master Cylinder
RAM HD Clutch
Tick Remote Bleeder
Tick Slave Spacers (for the gap between PP and slave)
Thirdgen Camaro body/firewall
1: February 2016: Finished my swap, including a brand new GM Master, GM Performance Slave, and RAM clutch. Drove okay.
2: October 2016: Clutch not fully disengaging, could not bench bleed master (would not get stiff). Replaced with Tick Performance Master cylinder, problem resolved.
4: November 2016: Disengaging right off the floor, adjusted master out, problem solved
5: December 2016: Disengaging right off the floor, adjusted master out, problem solved
6: Today: Not fully disengaging again. Pedal is adjusted past the brake pedal, i dont really think it should be any further out (see pics)
Here is what I've tried:
a: When in first, clutch all the way in, in my level garage, car moves when you rev it up. (See Pics)
b: Fluid was black (See Pic)
c: When bleeding with the Tick Remote bleeder, the first inch of pedal travel was air bubbles before solid fluid. I bled for 10 minutes and it didnt change.
d: Once the fluid coming out was clear, I stuck the bleeder end into the master reservoir, so if it was "sucking" air back into the bleeder line, it would suck fluid. I bled for 15 minutes or so like this.
e: Pedal felt fairly smooth, but still moving as described in "a"
f: There are no fluid leaks that I can see, and the fluid level hasn't changed since I first put the Tick master in.
Theory 1: Heat is boiling the fluid. (Probably true anyway if the fluid is so black)
I bled and put fresh DOT3 until fluid came out clear. Symptoms dont change. This is happening on a cold, fresh start too so no hot fluid.
Either way, I have heat sheilding and DOT4 coming in.
Theory 2: Bad Tick Master:
I unplugged the master from the slave, and the clutch pedal is stiff. I could not push it at all. Master should be fine if it is holding pressure.
Do I need to do this with the reservoir cap off?
Theory 3: Bad Slave:
If the master is working, The slave cant bypass anywhere, it can only really leak the fluid out. I dont see how it can be bad if fluid doesnt leak.
The car drives alright, and enters gear alright, but engagement is close to the floor and im worried about the movement shown in the video. I have since stopped driving it so I dont toast my syncros.
What I may do: Replace all fluid with new DOT4, wrap the clutch lines in heat sleeve, adjust the master out yet again, and live with it. Bad idea?
Car Moving: https://youtu.be/y2VN8wcyUos (LOUD)
Clutch Pedal Height: https://i.imgur.com/fTQFLLk.jpg
Clutch Pedal Height: https://i.imgur.com/a7jBmPo.jpg
Clutch Fluid Color: https://i.imgur.com/ag5PgTK.jpg
Clutch Line vs Header:https://i.imgur.com/y1tsjTb.jpg
Part List:
Stock 4th gen clutch pedals
GM Performance Slave
Tick Master Cylinder
RAM HD Clutch
Tick Remote Bleeder
Tick Slave Spacers (for the gap between PP and slave)
Thirdgen Camaro body/firewall
1: February 2016: Finished my swap, including a brand new GM Master, GM Performance Slave, and RAM clutch. Drove okay.
2: October 2016: Clutch not fully disengaging, could not bench bleed master (would not get stiff). Replaced with Tick Performance Master cylinder, problem resolved.
4: November 2016: Disengaging right off the floor, adjusted master out, problem solved
5: December 2016: Disengaging right off the floor, adjusted master out, problem solved
6: Today: Not fully disengaging again. Pedal is adjusted past the brake pedal, i dont really think it should be any further out (see pics)
Here is what I've tried:
a: When in first, clutch all the way in, in my level garage, car moves when you rev it up. (See Pics)
b: Fluid was black (See Pic)
c: When bleeding with the Tick Remote bleeder, the first inch of pedal travel was air bubbles before solid fluid. I bled for 10 minutes and it didnt change.
d: Once the fluid coming out was clear, I stuck the bleeder end into the master reservoir, so if it was "sucking" air back into the bleeder line, it would suck fluid. I bled for 15 minutes or so like this.
e: Pedal felt fairly smooth, but still moving as described in "a"
f: There are no fluid leaks that I can see, and the fluid level hasn't changed since I first put the Tick master in.
Theory 1: Heat is boiling the fluid. (Probably true anyway if the fluid is so black)
I bled and put fresh DOT3 until fluid came out clear. Symptoms dont change. This is happening on a cold, fresh start too so no hot fluid.
Either way, I have heat sheilding and DOT4 coming in.
Theory 2: Bad Tick Master:
I unplugged the master from the slave, and the clutch pedal is stiff. I could not push it at all. Master should be fine if it is holding pressure.
Do I need to do this with the reservoir cap off?
Theory 3: Bad Slave:
If the master is working, The slave cant bypass anywhere, it can only really leak the fluid out. I dont see how it can be bad if fluid doesnt leak.
The car drives alright, and enters gear alright, but engagement is close to the floor and im worried about the movement shown in the video. I have since stopped driving it so I dont toast my syncros.
What I may do: Replace all fluid with new DOT4, wrap the clutch lines in heat sleeve, adjust the master out yet again, and live with it. Bad idea?
Car Moving: https://youtu.be/y2VN8wcyUos (LOUD)
Clutch Pedal Height: https://i.imgur.com/fTQFLLk.jpg
Clutch Pedal Height: https://i.imgur.com/a7jBmPo.jpg
Clutch Fluid Color: https://i.imgur.com/ag5PgTK.jpg
Clutch Line vs Header:https://i.imgur.com/y1tsjTb.jpg
Last edited by kenney001; 02-03-2017 at 01:49 PM.
02-06-2017, 05:15 PM
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So I bled the clutch and refilled with new DOT4, and moved the clutch pedal out yet again with the adjuster.
I have driven it a couple times, maybe 15 miles total, and the clutch doesnt feel like it's disengaging again. The pedal is much higher than it was when I first put the tick in.
Im so lost! Anyone have ideas?
I have driven it a couple times, maybe 15 miles total, and the clutch doesnt feel like it's disengaging again. The pedal is much higher than it was when I first put the tick in.
Im so lost! Anyone have ideas?
02-06-2017, 05:50 PM
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You really shouldn't need to adjust out like you are. Typically on the tick master, even with the brake pedal is perfect. Here's a couple thoughts for you:
1. It is possible that the master is bypassing an internal seal. So, basically, the pedal moves, but some fluid just moves past the seals and doesn't actually contribute to moving the clutch. Very possible. To test for this, disconnect the clutch. The pedal should not go down unless you're an 800 pound gorilla. If you can apply constant pressure and it moves, then the seal is probably blown. Based on your description below, this sounds most plausible. Don't just stomp on it, but think like you're testing your brake pedal. steady, firm pressure.
2. Air leak at the quick connect letting air in when you let the pedal up. Slow build up of air in the line with each successive shift. I'd think you'd get a leak if this was the case, but sometimes, fluids do weird things. If you get a blast of air "bench bleeding" it in the car (using a screwdriver to open the check valve) this could be it.
3. Speed bleeder not perfectly sealed in the slave, resulting in similar slow build up of air over time with each progressive shift. Although I'd expect you'd find a leak if this were true.
4. Did you ever measure for a shim? I did not see in your OP that you did, but that doesn't mean you didn't do it. Possibly, it needed a shim all along, and overstroking the slave to compensate for the needed shim resulted in a blown slave seal. Although, this would typically present as a leak. i've never heard of a slave seal blowing without a leak, but that doesn't mean it has never happened. I don't know how you would test for this.
5. Highly unlikely, but I did see a few "clutch won't disengage" threads that the problem ended up being the disc was reversed. This is not very likely, as this usually would immediately and never work, and adjusting the pedal out wouldn't help. but it would give you a non-disengage without a leak.
Very sorry this is doing this. It's a tough problem to diagnose, especially when you've already checked the easy stuff.
1. It is possible that the master is bypassing an internal seal. So, basically, the pedal moves, but some fluid just moves past the seals and doesn't actually contribute to moving the clutch. Very possible. To test for this, disconnect the clutch. The pedal should not go down unless you're an 800 pound gorilla. If you can apply constant pressure and it moves, then the seal is probably blown. Based on your description below, this sounds most plausible. Don't just stomp on it, but think like you're testing your brake pedal. steady, firm pressure.
2. Air leak at the quick connect letting air in when you let the pedal up. Slow build up of air in the line with each successive shift. I'd think you'd get a leak if this was the case, but sometimes, fluids do weird things. If you get a blast of air "bench bleeding" it in the car (using a screwdriver to open the check valve) this could be it.
3. Speed bleeder not perfectly sealed in the slave, resulting in similar slow build up of air over time with each progressive shift. Although I'd expect you'd find a leak if this were true.
4. Did you ever measure for a shim? I did not see in your OP that you did, but that doesn't mean you didn't do it. Possibly, it needed a shim all along, and overstroking the slave to compensate for the needed shim resulted in a blown slave seal. Although, this would typically present as a leak. i've never heard of a slave seal blowing without a leak, but that doesn't mean it has never happened. I don't know how you would test for this.
5. Highly unlikely, but I did see a few "clutch won't disengage" threads that the problem ended up being the disc was reversed. This is not very likely, as this usually would immediately and never work, and adjusting the pedal out wouldn't help. but it would give you a non-disengage without a leak.
Very sorry this is doing this. It's a tough problem to diagnose, especially when you've already checked the easy stuff.
02-10-2017, 01:14 PM
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I recently have the similar problem, out of the blue hard to shift into first almost impossible to get into reverse. thought the adjuster backed off or something like that, car sat for a couple of weeks had to change header gaskets plug wires plugs. Hop in go for test drive shifted fine went into gears easily, drove for couple of days, then I get a squeal, churp sound when I pushed clutch in and it won't go in reverse, then didn't feel like clutch was dis-engaugeing all the way. No leaks, Resivoir level ok, Is throw out, Slave Cylinder going bad???
02-16-2017, 05:55 PM
#5
OP,
Did you swap an automatic car to manual? Did you re in force the firewall with a steel plate to make sure it doesn't flex? It sounds like your firewall is flexing and making you adjust the master all the time to make up for a big dent your foot is putting in the firewall
Noise would be the throw out bearing. Sounds like the slave is going
Did you swap an automatic car to manual? Did you re in force the firewall with a steel plate to make sure it doesn't flex? It sounds like your firewall is flexing and making you adjust the master all the time to make up for a big dent your foot is putting in the firewall
I recently have the similar problem, out of the blue hard to shift into first almost impossible to get into reverse. thought the adjuster backed off or something like that, car sat for a couple of weeks had to change header gaskets plug wires plugs. Hop in go for test drive shifted fine went into gears easily, drove for couple of days, then I get a squeal, churp sound when I pushed clutch in and it won't go in reverse, then didn't feel like clutch was dis-engaugeing all the way. No leaks, Resivoir level ok, Is throw out, Slave Cylinder going bad???
Noise would be the throw out bearing. Sounds like the slave is going
