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It's stupid not only because this bearing is literally the last thing to get to when tearing out the tranny but they eat your input shaft when they fail! The car came with a bearing from the factory and i was stupid to use anything else. i have had the car since new.
here is my story.
OK so last weekend I had to tear out the guts of my 2002 Trans Am because the pilot bearing decided to disintegrate. Only about 15,000 miles (40,000 miles total on the car) on the bearing but the car did sit a bit so maybe dried up.
I have been driving the car daily instead of my normal car lease for the last 6 months while i save a little money for my wedding and it's been great. After a 500 mile road trip 2 weeks ago the bearing completely went out and started to grab the input shaft randomly. Had to deal with it for about a week because at first i thought it was the clutch not letting go so i bled everything fully but nope had to tear it apart.
Lucky my friend owns a shop so here we go. I used to do this job on cinderblocks in my driveway in my early 20s but im old now...34 and just no. Had a hell of a time pulling everything but the real hold up was the pilot bearing itself. When i got to it it had ZERO needle bearings left. just a black cloud of dust on the flywheel.
It took me a hour hour to get the bearing out... This is because once the needles are gone the rest of the bearing just crumbles when using a puller or a slap hammer. once i destroyed it enough i was able to get a good enough grip to get it out.
After that was smooth sailing. put a little oil on the new bronze BUSHING to help drive it home and it was perfect. Lucky for me i changed it just in time where the input shaft on the tanny was still ok...
Make sure to get a bushing for real. With a bushing when it goes it does not take the input shaft with it! Dorman part number 690-014
Car is shifting better than it has in years. Also swap synchromesh for Mobil 1 ATF and it is definitely better.
This is just my story but really... puting a bearing in that spot is just silly and was made to fail.
That just seems based off your exp but we sell hundreds of the gm bearings a year with no issues.
Everyone had their pref of bearing or bushing though.
That just seems based off your exp but we sell hundreds of the gm bearings a year with no issues.
Everyone had their pref of bearing or bushing though.
But could you give me an argument for pilot bearings over bushings? It's a part that is only ever used when the clutch is pushed in. Gives zero performance benefit. When pilot bearings goes it can ruin a transmission needing a rebuild. When a bushing wears it just wears and stays in one piece.
Sure the newer ls2 style pilot bearings are enclosed and that's fine. For the ls1 style motors it's bear needle bearings on the input shaft. That's not good is all I'm saying.
Getrag tranny's don't like to go into gear with stuff spinning, bushings tend to keep the input shaft spinning a bit.. More so than a bearing, but other than that.. Cant imagine what difference it would make..
Getrag tranny's don't like to go into gear with stuff spinning, bushings tend to keep the input shaft spinning a bit.. More so than a bearing, but other than that.. Cant imagine what difference it would make..
Good point and it's why i swapped to a bearing in the first place. I just think the minuses far outweigh the pluses in this scenario.
Like I said the newer bearings in the ls2 are different but the ls1 used the older style which is the issue.
Ive seen them all fail both in personal vehicles and customers. Normally its not rhe bearing that fails on its own accors. the bushing will wear as well. Normally people install the bearing with just the lube inside it or dry and then run into issues. ive had pilot bearings, be they stock or aftermarke last for 100k miles plus. Ive seen them fail also. ive seen bushings fail as well. sometimes you can blame the part, sometimes its something else that causes the failure.
Ive seen them all fail both in personal vehicles and customers. Normally its not rhe bearing that fails on its own accors. the bushing will wear as well. Normally people install the bearing with just the lube inside it or dry and then run into issues. ive had pilot bearings, be they stock or aftermarke last for 100k miles plus. Ive seen them fail also. ive seen bushings fail as well. sometimes you can blame the part, sometimes its something else that causes the failure.
I get that but if you run the car hard like we tend too... Issues come up. I just am saying it's the lesser of 2 evils for the most part.
You are right this is my experience but I feel I would be doing a disservice to everyone if I did not share it.
For me I think the bearing dried out while it was sitting and died.
Bushings last as long as your clutch for the most part. Change when you do that and it's good to go.
Again every car is different but more info is always good
Not all bushings or bearings are created equal.
We have sold quite a few bearings with ls7 clutch kits for ex and mcleod rst and when we ask customers for an update, they have no issues and they are driven for years. Id always recommend changing either with a new clutch.
All of the monster clutch kits that come with pilots use the roller bearing also. Maybe steve there can give some more insight.
If gm could save money using the bushing vs using the roller bearing, wouldnt you think they would also?
All of the monster clutch kits that come with pilots use the roller bearing also. Maybe steve there can give some more insight.
If gm could save money using the bushing vs using the roller bearing, wouldnt you think they would also?
Well if you already she it apart you be a fool no to change it either way lol
Getrag tranny's don't like to go into gear with stuff spinning, bushings tend to keep the input shaft spinning a bit.. More so than a bearing, but other than that.. Cant imagine what difference it would make..
It's not a Getrag, and it's the synchros job to slow down any parts required to enable smooth shifting. A correctly sized bush would make no difference whatsoever vs a bearing given the inertia etc the main rotating parts have, like the friction disc, the gearset etc.
Is one better than the other ? GM probably fit millions of bearings, yes some give trouble. Hardly enough to say they're rubbish though.
But then bushes have also bee used for decades and very reliable too...
The bearings were designed to fit an existing crank pocket. Not designed from scratch to be absolutely ideal for the job. Use of the maindrive pilot tip as the inner race means it's going to take the brunt of failed hardened rollers. If we had no experience with reliable bronze from decades of being able to re-use the maindrive shaft without repair, we would accept the failures, repair, and move on. Even with a lightly worn pilot tip, use of a bronze bushing lets you complete the job and be down the road without issue for a good number of miles. That's not the case with the failed roller versions.
The argument bushings are going to have more drag and create problems in a transmission shifting is exaggeration on a good day. A synchro is designed to slow down or speed up a spinning gear under a sprung pressure load from keys. That spinning mass is far greater than the friction of a pilot tip in a correct material / size bushing.
The aftermarket bronze import products have been something to watch out for because ferrous materials have been blended into them. This isn't beneficial to the pilot tip or ease of service obviously.
There are other things to consider; the lower rpm engines which GM originally installed the rollers in May have had fewer problems than an LS engine.
I know how crappy service life can be with the rollers. Going by my experience with properly installed versions of both, I am confident in going with a bushing in the future.
Of course, opinions may vary, and the raccoon evaluation method takes over a lot of decisions, including motor oil and pilot bearing purchases. Keep in mind when it comes to replacing stuff that wasn't broken or failure prone: many "upgrades" aren't.
The c5 z06 was designed to be a track car. Had they found a less expensive alt in the bronze or sintered bushing im sure they would have. The c6z uses the roller bearing not a bushing either.
GM expects service intevals fo their products and possible service life as well, but if they have a less expensive part option that would cut down on a service inteval need or service life id expect them to use it in every application they can.
Like I said I have owned my car since new. It came with a bushing installed from the factory. I replaced it with a bearing because I was told it was better. Turns out that was wrong.
Afaik all ls and even most if not all lt fbodys came with pilot bearings. even the 3.8l got the bearing.
Here is an interesting thread about it and if the bearing or bushing sees wear or load even something else is wrong.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-transmission/1138787-pilot-bushing-vs-bearing.html
The bushing or bearing is just there to center the shaft. The input bearing takes the load along with the rest of the bearings in case. Then the output shaft bushing and shaft.
Really the only time either should see wear of any kind..is when the clutch is disengaged. Really...that should never be for long periods of time, so should take many many thousand miles of any normal usage.
Solid mounts and pilot bearing here, never had any problems.
Bearing vs bushing, if you kill a bearing or have an old trans with a worn input shaft that kills a bearing you can switch to a bushing, but as mentioned a properly greased bearing will not fail on its own, it's usually an issue with the input shaft.
My builder specifically made sure to tell me he only uses bearings, so that's what I went with
05-26-2017, 02:03 PM
PSA: Do Not Use Pilot Bearings! 
