looking to make 450rwhp 99 SS
11-12-2017, 11:21 AM
#41
I like my Vikings. The price/performance ratio is good for what I use them for, which certainly isn't auto cross.
Now if you want to cut similar 60 foot times as the vikings and have improved comfort and less of a boaty and floatiness feel, sure you can go with another coil over setup (Afco) but you could be paying roughly $800-$900 more. If this season is anything like last one, the Viking package can be had close to $1k shipped on Black Friday.
The Koni and billstein don't offer adjustable ride height like coil overs do, so if that is important (like it is to me) then those are not considerations.
Now if you want to cut similar 60 foot times as the vikings and have improved comfort and less of a boaty and floatiness feel, sure you can go with another coil over setup (Afco) but you could be paying roughly $800-$900 more. If this season is anything like last one, the Viking package can be had close to $1k shipped on Black Friday.
The Koni and billstein don't offer adjustable ride height like coil overs do, so if that is important (like it is to me) then those are not considerations.
my biggest beef personally isn't with the warriors themselves, even tho viking clearly says they can be competitive in autocross, but the sponsors that try selling them. inn my long *** thread, only bmr attempted to stick up for them and say they are a great shock that can handle all sorts of street driving. more than 10 sponsors sell them, and only 1 tries to stick up for them? come on, you know they all saw the thread, and one 1 chimed in trying to say no the viking warriors are great for the street? sponsors check these threads everyday, some multiple times an hour because its essential for their business. you know everyone that sells suspension saw that thread. one of the solutions bmr tried saying was that i needed sway bars and i would have gotten a much better feel from them......really? bars would have just been a band aid to help cover up the problem.
everyone went silent when sam strano chimed in. one or 2 guys tried to argue with him, but lost i would think. i know he's not a god, but strano knows enough to provide knowledgable advice.
11-12-2017, 11:41 AM
#42
mainly i just couldn't get over the floaty feeling i got. in my area there are a ton of bumpy roads and the car never stopped bouncing slightly. id imagine u wouldn't notice if u live in an area with mostly smooth roads. also u mentioned height adjustability which if important, u may have to "settle" for viking warriors due to cost. again u pay more u get more. if ur on a budget an absolutely need height adjustability, and don't mind spending 1000 for just height adjustability and no major performance gains, then the warriors have their place. i spent 900 give or take for front umi/afco coilovers and rear koni yellows and strano springs were i believe 550. so for too more i got ride height adjustable in the front with a package that keeps my car planted.
my biggest beef personally isn't with the warriors themselves, even tho viking clearly says they can be competitive in autocross, but the sponsors that try selling them. inn my long *** thread, only bmr attempted to stick up for them and say they are a great shock that can handle all sorts of street driving. more than 10 sponsors sell them, and only 1 tries to stick up for them? come on, you know they all saw the thread, and one 1 chimed in trying to say no the viking warriors are great for the street? sponsors check these threads everyday, some multiple times an hour because its essential for their business. you know everyone that sells suspension saw that thread. one of the solutions bmr tried saying was that i needed sway bars and i would have gotten a much better feel from them......really? bars would have just been a band aid to help cover up the problem.
everyone went silent when sam strano chimed in. one or 2 guys tried to argue with him, but lost i would think. i know he's not a god, but strano knows enough to provide knowledgable advice.
my biggest beef personally isn't with the warriors themselves, even tho viking clearly says they can be competitive in autocross, but the sponsors that try selling them. inn my long *** thread, only bmr attempted to stick up for them and say they are a great shock that can handle all sorts of street driving. more than 10 sponsors sell them, and only 1 tries to stick up for them? come on, you know they all saw the thread, and one 1 chimed in trying to say no the viking warriors are great for the street? sponsors check these threads everyday, some multiple times an hour because its essential for their business. you know everyone that sells suspension saw that thread. one of the solutions bmr tried saying was that i needed sway bars and i would have gotten a much better feel from them......really? bars would have just been a band aid to help cover up the problem.
everyone went silent when sam strano chimed in. one or 2 guys tried to argue with him, but lost i would think. i know he's not a god, but strano knows enough to provide knowledgable advice.
Bmr are clearly suspension guys so they hang around those sections. We try to touch on all the sections but miss quite a few threads. Quite a few users only stick to the model specific threads or only pfs sections. You should not be as surprised as you are at that. Here is anothet vendor defending them. How many of the other vendors you quote are active every day on here or even once a week?
Again, Tech is a small percentage of the actual ls/fbody/racing world. There isnt nearly as much traffic on here as there used to be.
Your personal experience may be different and that is fine and you have your input. So do others that differ from yours. Saying they will give you zero performance gain is a very subjective statement and imo quite a stretch especially if you have the added knowledge of how to adjust them.
11-12-2017, 11:44 AM
#43
I'm well familiar with that thread, and I agree that promoting Viking Warriors for auto X, or for daily driven cars may not be the best advice. It comes down to are they gas charged or not, rather than how much adjustment they have. My car isn't daily driven, just a weekend/track setup. I did hear something about Viking Crusaders but are those even gas charged? My experience is limited to the Eibach lowering springs 870.001 and 3870.002 with the Bilstein shocks and struts F4-B46-1914-M0 and F4-B46-2071-M0 setup that Thunder Racing used to sell, and the viking warrior double adj coil over kit A206-350K, C213-R, 14DP150. I wonder what the Afco setup would be like on my car.
I would be interested in how the margins compare on the viking warrior setup that the vendors are selling to other setups. What's the % differential in profit? If it's not that much over the other setups then that would clear up the thought that vendors are just pushing these just because the margins are higher. I saw this claim in that other thread and I'm not sure I believe it.
I would be interested in how the margins compare on the viking warrior setup that the vendors are selling to other setups. What's the % differential in profit? If it's not that much over the other setups then that would clear up the thought that vendors are just pushing these just because the margins are higher. I saw this claim in that other thread and I'm not sure I believe it.
Last edited by 5.7stroker; 11-12-2017 at 11:55 AM.
11-12-2017, 12:15 PM
#44
I'm well familiar with that thread, and I agree that promoting Viking Warriors for auto X, or for daily driven cars may not be the best advice. It comes down to are they gas charged or not, rather than how much adjustment they have. My car isn't daily driven, just a weekend/track setup. I did hear something about Viking Crusaders but are those even gas charged? My experience is limited to the Eibach lowering springs 870.001 and 3870.002 with the Bilstein shocks and struts F4-B46-1914-M0 and F4-B46-2071-M0 setup that Thunder Racing used to sell, and the viking warrior double adj coil over kit A206-350K, C213-R, 14DP150. I wonder what the Afco setup would be like on my car.
I would be interested in how the margins compare on the viking warrior setup that the vendors are selling to other setups. What's the % differential in profit? If it's not that much over the other setups then that would clear up the thought that vendors are just pushing these just because the margins are higher. I saw this claim in that other thread and I'm not sure I believe it.
I would be interested in how the margins compare on the viking warrior setup that the vendors are selling to other setups. What's the % differential in profit? If it's not that much over the other setups then that would clear up the thought that vendors are just pushing these just because the margins are higher. I saw this claim in that other thread and I'm not sure I believe it.
the main points that were mentioned in that thread...
1)no way can u make a non gas charged shock perform "well" (which is subjective) on the street, due to lack of rebound control. period. the oil foams and just creates issues. no arguing this. no opinions, just facts.
2)larger springs will not have helped my situation. its determined that the viking warriors were unable to control the 350 spring, thats where the float was coming from. so if they couldn't control the 350s, then putting the 550s or 600s wouldn't have made a difference. if u can't slow down a 350 spring, you won't slow down a 600
3)for those that do think they are an improvement over stock, its possible that there shocks were 15 years old and had tons of miles and were worn out. so yea, the vikings should feel better over the worn stockers.
the profit margin is much higher on vikings. not saying how i know that. but i wasn't around for the QA1 rush. the marketing is the same since viking was opened up/or is run by ex QA1 employees.
as mentioned, they are cheap. at $1000 for coilovers thats a great price......but for 1000, are you getting more than just ride height adjustability?
to the op, i apologize for hijacking ur thread. ws6 store, feel free to bump up the thread in the suspension forum if you would like to continue talking about the vikings, since i no longer am gonna post about them here.
also op, if you want to make 450 rwhp easier to achieve, i would ditch the catback, or at a minimum, get an offered y to eliminate the cats. on a cam car, the cats definitely can rob you of 10-15 rwhp. if u don't mind it being louder, if u go true duals with an x pipe and bullet mufflers, on a cam car thats easily 20hp.
Last edited by Floorman279; 11-12-2017 at 12:17 PM. Reason: .........
11-12-2017, 02:13 PM
#45
TECH Senior Member
Its one of many now with unhappy viking owners who have actually tried more than 1 mediocre setup. If someone is used to stock(which is very floaty and loose) or a poor setup and go to vikings they might like them ok because they don't know any better.
This is only half true. Floatyness/bouncyness comes from the shock not being able to damp the spring. Like when you install lowering spring on stock shocks - it bouces, floats and slams on bumps because the stock shocks cannot control the higher rate spring with less travel than before.
So the part of the statement that is true is that he could go with a softer spring with more height that the shock might be able to damp, but at the point you will be going basically softer than stock springs. And then when the shock gets worked hard or heated up the oil will cavitate and you lose dampening, so the softer springs are no longer being damped anymore.
Yes, I have read things too, until they try an actual good shock and are blown away at the difference. The guys that really like them have not tried anything good, seriously.
Even UMI who likes to praise viking, have said their strano/custom afco coilovers (that are monotube and gas charged) not only ride better than the vikings but handle way way better and are at the same price as the "road race" version of the vikings that are still not gas charged...
They will give a performance gain just like adding bias ply slicks to a car, you gain off the line traction but sacrifice streetability, ride and handling. Hopefully you wouldn't think that by simply over inflating (making stiff) the slicks they then become good for autox/road racing right? Same idea, by making the shocks "stiffer" does NOT make them a good handling/riding shock.
You also realize the ability to change the springs in the front can fix that though not just crankin em down.
So the part of the statement that is true is that he could go with a softer spring with more height that the shock might be able to damp, but at the point you will be going basically softer than stock springs. And then when the shock gets worked hard or heated up the oil will cavitate and you lose dampening, so the softer springs are no longer being damped anymore.
Ive heard personally from more people using them on the street and road course and a few autoX they love them, in an even smaller group they like em over the qa1.
Even UMI who likes to praise viking, have said their strano/custom afco coilovers (that are monotube and gas charged) not only ride better than the vikings but handle way way better and are at the same price as the "road race" version of the vikings that are still not gas charged...
Your personal experience may be different and that is fine and you have your input. So do others that differ from yours. Saying they will give you zero performance gain is a very subjective statement and imo quite a stretch especially if you have the added knowledge of how to adjust them.
11-12-2017, 02:42 PM
#46
Do they make Tokico Illumina coil overs for the 4th gen F-body on all 4 corners? I had a set of those on my mustang back in the day and it felt good on the street while giving good track performance.
I'd like to drive a 4th gen that has the afco setup on all 4 corners just to see how much better it is on the street than viking warriors.
I'd like to drive a 4th gen that has the afco setup on all 4 corners just to see how much better it is on the street than viking warriors.
11-12-2017, 03:25 PM
#47
Do they make Tokico Illumina coil overs for the 4th gen F-body on all 4 corners? I had a set of those on my mustang back in the day and it felt good on the street while giving good track performance.
I'd like to drive a 4th gen that has the afco setup on all 4 corners just to see how much better it is on the street than viking warriors.
I'd like to drive a 4th gen that has the afco setup on all 4 corners just to see how much better it is on the street than viking warriors.
11-12-2017, 03:58 PM
#48
For us personally its not about margins. It about a quality part. Whether it is cheap or expensive. We do sell a few afcos but due to price diff normally customers go qa1 or viking.
Below that they normally jump at the regular bilsteins but below that they wanna try for the kyb agx or gr2.
Viking has a 400 lb spring and a 550 that are normally recommended for street drivers. Below that youve gotta crank on the spring to make them worth a damn on the street.
Fwiw we dont tell everyone VIKING OR DIE either.
We give them the range of what we have. Most of the time they already either have a budget or kit in mind and we go from there.
Below that they normally jump at the regular bilsteins but below that they wanna try for the kyb agx or gr2.
Viking has a 400 lb spring and a 550 that are normally recommended for street drivers. Below that youve gotta crank on the spring to make them worth a damn on the street.
Fwiw we dont tell everyone VIKING OR DIE either.
We give them the range of what we have. Most of the time they already either have a budget or kit in mind and we go from there.
11-12-2017, 04:34 PM
#49
TECH Senior Member
Do they make Tokico Illumina coil overs for the 4th gen F-body on all 4 corners? I had a set of those on my mustang back in the day and it felt good on the street while giving good track performance.
I'd like to drive a 4th gen that has the afco setup on all 4 corners just to see how much better it is on the street than viking warriors.
I'd like to drive a 4th gen that has the afco setup on all 4 corners just to see how much better it is on the street than viking warriors.
For us personally its not about margins. It about a quality part. Whether it is cheap or expensive. We do sell a few afcos but due to price diff normally customers go qa1 or viking.
Below that they normally jump at the regular bilsteins but below that they wanna try for the kyb agx or gr2.
Viking has a 400 lb spring and a 550 that are normally recommended for street drivers. Below that youve gotta crank on the spring to make them worth a damn on the street.
Fwiw we dont tell everyone VIKING OR DIE either.
We give them the range of what we have. Most of the time they already either have a budget or kit in mind and we go from there.
Below that they normally jump at the regular bilsteins but below that they wanna try for the kyb agx or gr2.
Viking has a 400 lb spring and a 550 that are normally recommended for street drivers. Below that youve gotta crank on the spring to make them worth a damn on the street.
Fwiw we dont tell everyone VIKING OR DIE either.
We give them the range of what we have. Most of the time they already either have a budget or kit in mind and we go from there.
Stock front springs are 292lbs/in on a stock LS1 4th gen, so why would that be a bad rate for the street assuming the height is correct?
11-12-2017, 04:57 PM
#50
Because you are changing the height of the spring itself also. Ive seen some buy the lighter spring and even some threads on here where they have em cranked down just to keep the front from sagging or bring back the steering feedback/feel.
There are a few other companies we are looking st also due to them being the only real option for 16+ Camaros etc but i forget the names at the moment.
There are a few other companies we are looking st also due to them being the only real option for 16+ Camaros etc but i forget the names at the moment.
11-12-2017, 07:14 PM
#51
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I'm looking more for handling than just straight line performance. my car will be mostly street than track. but I will be definitely racing it thats for sure. I want the suspension to mimic what is currently on the cobra. I know it won't be exactly the same with the cobra having an IRS but when it had low 600hp with basically a road race suspension from maximum motorsports my BF was still able to pull off 10 second runs. it handles really well and with 315 DR,s the sucker would hook. for some reason he gets imports wanting to race him lol. Mike at tech@WS6store I was looking at some of your coil over packages and I want the best of the best. what would you suggest ?
11-12-2017, 08:24 PM
#54
TECH Senior Member
*The UMI Afco kit, not a regular old afco coilover (those would be far off)
http://www.ws6project.com/user_stor/...oducts_id=7782
http://www.ws6project.com/user_stor/...oducts_id=7782
11-12-2017, 08:26 PM
#55
TECH Senior Member
Because you are changing the height of the spring itself also. Ive seen some buy the lighter spring and even some threads on here where they have em cranked down just to keep the front from sagging or bring back the steering feedback/feel.
There are a few other companies we are looking st also due to them being the only real option for 16+ Camaros etc but i forget the names at the moment.
There are a few other companies we are looking st also due to them being the only real option for 16+ Camaros etc but i forget the names at the moment.
11-12-2017, 10:53 PM
#57
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*The UMI Afco kit, not a regular old afco coilover (those would be far off)
http://www.ws6project.com/user_stor/...oducts_id=7782
http://www.ws6project.com/user_stor/...oducts_id=7782
11-25-2017, 01:28 AM
#58
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For some reason obtaining 450rwhp is harder than it seems with a nice set of 243 cnc ported, a good matching Cam, LS6 intake or FAST 92 intake, 92mm Nick Williams Throttle Body, Z06 MAF Sensor,1x7/8 Long tube headers, high flow cats, your Magnaflow exhaust, Racetronix fuel pump system with hotwire, FAST #36 injectors, LS7 Clutch, or Stall, and please becaerul of the stock 10bolt rear, good luck be safe
11-26-2017, 08:32 AM
#60
For some reason obtaining 450rwhp is harder than it seems with a nice set of 243 cnc ported, a good matching Cam, LS6 intake or FAST 92 intake, 92mm Nick Williams Throttle Body, Z06 MAF Sensor,1x7/8 Long tube headers, high flow cats, your Magnaflow exhaust, Racetronix fuel pump system with hotwire, FAST #36 injectors, LS7 Clutch, or Stall, and please becaerul of the stock 10bolt rear, good luck be safe