Need some guidance with my build list, please
01-07-2019, 03:43 AM
#1
Teching In
Thread Starter
Need some guidance with my build list, please Hey guys, so I've spent the last few months scouring the forums and every other resource I can find to try and plan out everything I want to do to the Bird, but I think I'm starting to burn out. Seems like when I feel like I've figured out one thing, another pops up, and sometimes changes things I thought I knew before. Could some of you take a look at what I've got together here and tell me what I may be forgetting, or to just generally make sure I'm not setting myself up to buy a $3000 part that won't work with another expensive part? My short [long] term goal is to get around 450 RWHP with Hawk's kit and my long [longer] term goal would be to supercharge it. I may or may not ever get the chance to do that, but I want to be sure and use parts [Trany, Rear diff, Fuel pump, etc.] that would be able to stand up to it all. I'd rather overcompensate than under and have to buy twice, if it can be helped. I'd rather pay a little more for a better part, to an extent, of course. I'd also like to keep it street-able, I'm not wanting to turn it into a full time drag car. Street/Strip is good. Everything here is listed in a vague order of what should be done first, so if you see me about to screw up the order, please let me know!
Tires
- Nitto NT555 G2 [620Total]
o 275/50 Rear [360/2]
o 245/45 Front [255/45, 235/45, or 225/50 could work as well?] [260/2]
Reinforcement
- 9” Moser Rear end, 4.11, Detroit Locker, 33 Spline, Al center section, Fill & Drain [3150]
- HAWKS Suspension Kit [1000]
- - FLT 4L80E Transmission with all options (1997+) [3200]
- [[ALTERNATIVE, rebuild 97+ 4L80E with [url=https://transmissioncenter.net/shop/4l80e-combo-kit-k80l2-you-get-all-3-alto-red-eagle-power-packs-for-1st-2nd-and-3rd-and-red-eagle-clutches-in-overdrive-and-overrun-plus/]Alto Red Eagle Power Pack [1300+TRANS]]]
o CUT Bell Housing if needed [DIY / MATERIALS]
o GM Crank Spacer and bolts [110]
o Flat Flex plate [170]
o Yank Crossmember [200]
o Speartech conversion harness [180]
o Lokar flexible dipstick [90]
o Transmission mounts [40]
o Hawk’s Mail in tune 1 [100start]
o Yank LS Power Adder Series 3400 Stall 3 Disk Clutch Torque Converter [1000]
o Aluminium Driveshaft [530]
o Transmission cooler [90]
Initial Power
- Hooker Catless Dual Exhaust [800]
- Hooker Headers [700]
- Heads and Cam package [Pushrods, Fuel Rail, Throttle Body, Intake Manifold, MAF,[b]Injectors] [4300] Ask about 60lb injectors and 918 minimum valve springs
- Hawk’s Mail in tune 1 [100start]
[~5,900]
--------------------------------------------------------IF-SUPERCHARGING-------------------------------------------------------
More Bulletproofing
- *Stage 3 5.7 LS1 346/383 Short Block w/ Upgrade kit [5700] Or probably a local build.
o Double Timing Chain [140]
- *Sub frame Connectors [520]
[~6,400]
Phase 4: Forced Induction
- *D-1SC Procharger [6700]
- *Walbro Dual Fuel Pump [425]
- *3 Gage Pillar [80]
o *Factory Match GM 35 PSI Boost Gage [95]
o *Factory Match GM Fuel Pressure Gage [260]
o *Factory Match GM Trans Temp Gage [190]
- *Hawk’s Mail in tune 2 [100start]
[~7,800]
Thanks so much for the help. With expenditures a big as these, and with all the time its going to take to finish them, I really want to have a nice blueprint to follow so I don't bite myself in the ***.
Tires
- Nitto NT555 G2 [620Total]
o 275/50 Rear [360/2]
o 245/45 Front [255/45, 235/45, or 225/50 could work as well?] [260/2]
Reinforcement
- 9” Moser Rear end, 4.11, Detroit Locker, 33 Spline, Al center section, Fill & Drain [3150]
- HAWKS Suspension Kit [1000]
- - FLT 4L80E Transmission with all options (1997+) [3200]
- [[ALTERNATIVE, rebuild 97+ 4L80E with [url=https://transmissioncenter.net/shop/4l80e-combo-kit-k80l2-you-get-all-3-alto-red-eagle-power-packs-for-1st-2nd-and-3rd-and-red-eagle-clutches-in-overdrive-and-overrun-plus/]Alto Red Eagle Power Pack [1300+TRANS]]]
o CUT Bell Housing if needed [DIY / MATERIALS]
o GM Crank Spacer and bolts [110]
o Flat Flex plate [170]
o Yank Crossmember [200]
o Speartech conversion harness [180]
o Lokar flexible dipstick [90]
o Transmission mounts [40]
o Hawk’s Mail in tune 1 [100start]
o Yank LS Power Adder Series 3400 Stall 3 Disk Clutch Torque Converter [1000]
o Aluminium Driveshaft [530]
o Transmission cooler [90]
Initial Power
- Hooker Catless Dual Exhaust [800]
- Hooker Headers [700]
- Heads and Cam package [Pushrods, Fuel Rail, Throttle Body, Intake Manifold, MAF,[b]Injectors] [4300] Ask about 60lb injectors and 918 minimum valve springs
- Hawk’s Mail in tune 1 [100start]
[~5,900]
--------------------------------------------------------IF-SUPERCHARGING-------------------------------------------------------
More Bulletproofing
- *Stage 3 5.7 LS1 346/383 Short Block w/ Upgrade kit [5700] Or probably a local build.
o Double Timing Chain [140]
- *Sub frame Connectors [520]
[~6,400]
Phase 4: Forced Induction
- *D-1SC Procharger [6700]
- *Walbro Dual Fuel Pump [425]
- *3 Gage Pillar [80]
o *Factory Match GM 35 PSI Boost Gage [95]
o *Factory Match GM Fuel Pressure Gage [260]
o *Factory Match GM Trans Temp Gage [190]
- *Hawk’s Mail in tune 2 [100start]
[~7,800]
Thanks so much for the help. With expenditures a big as these, and with all the time its going to take to finish them, I really want to have a nice blueprint to follow so I don't bite myself in the ***.
Last edited by Richard_Strahl; 01-08-2019 at 02:46 AM. Reason: additions//added to transmission
01-07-2019, 09:58 AM
#2
TECH Resident
For a mostly street car the Detroit and 4.11's will get old fast. It'll work fine, but the noise and fuel mileage will really make you question the choice. Plenty of people use the exact rear you want as a daily so if your hearts set on that then go for it. Generally for a street car a rebuildable posi is the way to go. They're usually quieter and less aggressive which makes the morning commute easier. The gear ratio is more about figuring out what rpms you want at a set speed. Think about where you're driving and how fast you'll be going and then try to figure out what you consider the perfect rpm for that situation. The gear ratio in the trans and tire size will also come into play here.
The headers and exhaust is a huge can of worms here. People are brand loyal and there are sponsors that sell specific brands. From what I've seen, if you're confident in your ability or you know someone who is, the speed engineering setup is going to be the best bang for the buck system you'll ever find. The downside is it can be tricky to hang and you need to change out the bolts that come with the kit. The other systems cost much more but are easier to hang so it turns into a money vs hassle debate.
Not sure you need to deal with the double row timing chain. The newer single row should be more than enough for what you're doing.
Be careful with the mail order tune. It'll get you close to what you want, but it's never going to be perfect since every car is slightly different and will want more specific things than a mail order can provide. It's not anything against mail order tuning, it's more about managing your expectations. They can't see the dyno charts with each tweak and they can't hear or feel a slight stumble or surge when they change the parameters. For a transplant or a basic set of changes they're a great deal. For fine tuning a performance motor you need to be in the car.
The headers and exhaust is a huge can of worms here. People are brand loyal and there are sponsors that sell specific brands. From what I've seen, if you're confident in your ability or you know someone who is, the speed engineering setup is going to be the best bang for the buck system you'll ever find. The downside is it can be tricky to hang and you need to change out the bolts that come with the kit. The other systems cost much more but are easier to hang so it turns into a money vs hassle debate.
Not sure you need to deal with the double row timing chain. The newer single row should be more than enough for what you're doing.
Be careful with the mail order tune. It'll get you close to what you want, but it's never going to be perfect since every car is slightly different and will want more specific things than a mail order can provide. It's not anything against mail order tuning, it's more about managing your expectations. They can't see the dyno charts with each tweak and they can't hear or feel a slight stumble or surge when they change the parameters. For a transplant or a basic set of changes they're a great deal. For fine tuning a performance motor you need to be in the car.
01-07-2019, 06:21 PM
#3
Teching In
Thread Starter
Thanks for the input, bammax!
I'm not set on a 4.11, and I've never driven a street car that had a DL in it so I wouldn't know much about the noise. I have a Saturn Sky that I once had a 3.73 in [Blew 2 of them, long story] and I really liked that, but that's a 2L 4 banger and weights 500lbs less. I wasn't thinking so much about cruising RPM so much as leaving off the line in a race, although since I'd be doing more cruising that racing it's something I need to consider. In which case I think a 3.75 would work just fine, it seems. Provided I do end up Procharging it, I need something that could take up at 675-700 RWHP easy. Would the True Trac Limited Slip be able to stand up to that? I'd also have to go from the 33 spline down to a 31. I'm kinda rough on my cars, and I have a history of blowing rear ends in the Sky [No aftermarket option, been running 400RWHP through stock diffs]. I do not want to repeat this with the TA, lol.
I suppose with exhaust I'd rather pay a little more for an easier hang, but I guess it depends on how much "a little is", haha. A couple hundred bucks, sure. Another grand, I dunno. Where do the Hookers fall in at, cheaper and harder to hang?
I only listed the double chain because it was recommended in a forced induction thread along with the special valve springs and injectors:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...induction.html
Am I misunderstanding this at all?
How much do these cars depend on a tune for the components to work? I mean, would I be able to limp it for the 3hr drive to Hawks or do they become complete potato sacks? Should I do the mail order to get it there and then have to tuned properly, or would that just be a waste of $100?
EDIT:
I added the tires and sizes I plan to run, initially. I may move up to a 305 or 315 if I do the Procharger, but I imagine I'll go through a couple sets of tires before that happens anyway.
Also, as for the gearing on the transmission, FLT doesn't have the individual gears listed so I'm assuming it uses the same ratios as in a stock 4L80E.
I'm not set on a 4.11, and I've never driven a street car that had a DL in it so I wouldn't know much about the noise. I have a Saturn Sky that I once had a 3.73 in [Blew 2 of them, long story] and I really liked that, but that's a 2L 4 banger and weights 500lbs less. I wasn't thinking so much about cruising RPM so much as leaving off the line in a race, although since I'd be doing more cruising that racing it's something I need to consider. In which case I think a 3.75 would work just fine, it seems. Provided I do end up Procharging it, I need something that could take up at 675-700 RWHP easy. Would the True Trac Limited Slip be able to stand up to that? I'd also have to go from the 33 spline down to a 31. I'm kinda rough on my cars, and I have a history of blowing rear ends in the Sky [No aftermarket option, been running 400RWHP through stock diffs]. I do not want to repeat this with the TA, lol.
I suppose with exhaust I'd rather pay a little more for an easier hang, but I guess it depends on how much "a little is", haha. A couple hundred bucks, sure. Another grand, I dunno. Where do the Hookers fall in at, cheaper and harder to hang?
I only listed the double chain because it was recommended in a forced induction thread along with the special valve springs and injectors:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...induction.html
Am I misunderstanding this at all?
How much do these cars depend on a tune for the components to work? I mean, would I be able to limp it for the 3hr drive to Hawks or do they become complete potato sacks? Should I do the mail order to get it there and then have to tuned properly, or would that just be a waste of $100?
EDIT:
I added the tires and sizes I plan to run, initially. I may move up to a 305 or 315 if I do the Procharger, but I imagine I'll go through a couple sets of tires before that happens anyway.
Also, as for the gearing on the transmission, FLT doesn't have the individual gears listed so I'm assuming it uses the same ratios as in a stock 4L80E.
Last edited by Richard_Strahl; 01-07-2019 at 06:53 PM.
01-07-2019, 07:19 PM
#4
TECH Resident
The LS2 chain seems to be the standard for the gen 3 performance builds. That along with the melling high pressure oil pump (10295) and the ls7 lifters and trays are what you'll see recommended for most applications. Also look into oil pan baffles since they're fairly cheap and can really help keep a performance engine healthy. That's something people don't think about until after they put the engine in and hook everything up lol
As for the exhaust, Speed engineering headers are $220 or $280 depending on the size. Full dual exhaust is $450. Panhard bar to clear the exhaust is $100. Then some grade 8 bolts and lots of patience. I use that as the measuring stick to compare systems to. There are a few that hang easier and a few that sound better, but they all cost more so it's really a personal preference kind of thing. If I were paying a shop to install and wanted something a bit more quiet I would avoid the SE exhaust because the cost savings would evaporate quickly. A system that already has the muffler you want and is easy to hang will save money when a shop is billing you. SE is more for people who want all the features cheaply and are willing to put in some effort.
On the rear it's just a matter of figuring out exactly what you plan to do. I've had cars that cruise at 70 with the revs around 2,500 and it makes for a horrible experience. I've had cars that almost idle at 70 and can't get out into traffic which is also horrible. It's really just about figuring out what's right for you and that means you need to research your own driving habits. I kept track of my rpms and speed for a week and made sure to drive to all my usual stops to pinpoint where I was comfortable with taking things. For my current setup 3.23 works great and 3.42 would be my limit. My problem is lack of traction pulling into traffic quickly so more torque off the line is bad. If I were on a track and needed a better launch I'd wish for more aggressive gears, but that's more of a once a year issue where as dirty wet roads are virtually every day for me.
For the tune you can run stock with changes to emissions and exhaust along with intake manifold. It's not ideal but it works. A mail order tune works great for these things. Once you start changing cams or adding boost you really are better off with the tuner having the car to see real time issues. If you plan to do all the tuning with 1 person you can probably get a package deal that includes a mail order that gets you driving and dyno or street tune once you bring it in.
As for the exhaust, Speed engineering headers are $220 or $280 depending on the size. Full dual exhaust is $450. Panhard bar to clear the exhaust is $100. Then some grade 8 bolts and lots of patience. I use that as the measuring stick to compare systems to. There are a few that hang easier and a few that sound better, but they all cost more so it's really a personal preference kind of thing. If I were paying a shop to install and wanted something a bit more quiet I would avoid the SE exhaust because the cost savings would evaporate quickly. A system that already has the muffler you want and is easy to hang will save money when a shop is billing you. SE is more for people who want all the features cheaply and are willing to put in some effort.
On the rear it's just a matter of figuring out exactly what you plan to do. I've had cars that cruise at 70 with the revs around 2,500 and it makes for a horrible experience. I've had cars that almost idle at 70 and can't get out into traffic which is also horrible. It's really just about figuring out what's right for you and that means you need to research your own driving habits. I kept track of my rpms and speed for a week and made sure to drive to all my usual stops to pinpoint where I was comfortable with taking things. For my current setup 3.23 works great and 3.42 would be my limit. My problem is lack of traction pulling into traffic quickly so more torque off the line is bad. If I were on a track and needed a better launch I'd wish for more aggressive gears, but that's more of a once a year issue where as dirty wet roads are virtually every day for me.
For the tune you can run stock with changes to emissions and exhaust along with intake manifold. It's not ideal but it works. A mail order tune works great for these things. Once you start changing cams or adding boost you really are better off with the tuner having the car to see real time issues. If you plan to do all the tuning with 1 person you can probably get a package deal that includes a mail order that gets you driving and dyno or street tune once you bring it in.
Last edited by bammax; 01-07-2019 at 07:25 PM. Reason: added info
01-07-2019, 09:29 PM
#5
Teching In
Thread Starter
Ah, I see, I'll make a note of that and revise that section with new parts. Thank for the heads up on the oil pan baffles, I'll be adding that for sure!
I'll probably have to pay a shop to do the exhaust, I don't have a lift and I'd rather not try and install them with just a floor jack and stands. That being said, I think I'll go ahead with a system that will hang better that's already a complete kit, to keep that bill down.
That's something I hadn't considered, the LS1 may have a bit more low end torque than the LNF I'm used to... especially when you take the turbo out of the equation. I've heard of people DDing 4.11's and not having any trouble out of them, though, I guess I'll need to do more digging on that.
Never thought of that, I'll definitely bring it up to them to them and see if they can do a package deal for me!
So I know that the 4L80E can bolt up no problem, and 9" rear ends work well, but is there anything I'm forgetting that I'm going to need to do it accommodate those installs? I know the suspension package in necessary so that the rear end doesn't tear apart the torque arm, and the lower control arm needs to be relocated, but is there anything I'm forgetting that I'll need to take care of before doing x? I feel like a drive train rebuild should have a build list longer than 5 items... lol.
I'll probably have to pay a shop to do the exhaust, I don't have a lift and I'd rather not try and install them with just a floor jack and stands. That being said, I think I'll go ahead with a system that will hang better that's already a complete kit, to keep that bill down.
That's something I hadn't considered, the LS1 may have a bit more low end torque than the LNF I'm used to... especially when you take the turbo out of the equation. I've heard of people DDing 4.11's and not having any trouble out of them, though, I guess I'll need to do more digging on that.
Never thought of that, I'll definitely bring it up to them to them and see if they can do a package deal for me!
So I know that the 4L80E can bolt up no problem, and 9" rear ends work well, but is there anything I'm forgetting that I'm going to need to do it accommodate those installs? I know the suspension package in necessary so that the rear end doesn't tear apart the torque arm, and the lower control arm needs to be relocated, but is there anything I'm forgetting that I'll need to take care of before doing x? I feel like a drive train rebuild should have a build list longer than 5 items... lol.
01-07-2019, 10:40 PM
#6
TECH Resident
The entire drivetrain is engine, trans, driveshaft and rear. Technically you can replace the entire drivetrain with just 4 very expensive parts. Speaking of which, if you change to 4L80E and 9" you'll need a new driveshaft.
There's a couple sponsors that sell rears. You should probably contact them and explain exactly what you intend to do and see what they recommend. I'm torn between the fab 9 and s60 myself. Thankfully with an auto and traction issues I don't have to deal with it for a while longer.
There's a couple sponsors that sell rears. You should probably contact them and explain exactly what you intend to do and see what they recommend. I'm torn between the fab 9 and s60 myself. Thankfully with an auto and traction issues I don't have to deal with it for a while longer.
01-08-2019, 12:21 AM
#7
Teching In
Thread Starter
Fair point, lol. I guess I should just do like the British and use the whole transmission / gearbox thing. I didn't think about the driveshaft, is it just the length or would I need to upgrade from the stock steel?
Will do, man! It was actually between Hawk's Moser 9 and the Fab 9 for me, but I'm leaning towards the Moser as of now
EDIT:
Forgot to add the crank spacer and flex plate for the 4L80E
o GM Crank Spacer and bolts [110]
o Flat Flex plate [170]
Will do, man! It was actually between Hawk's Moser 9 and the Fab 9 for me, but I'm leaning towards the Moser as of now
EDIT:
Forgot to add the crank spacer and flex plate for the 4L80E
o GM Crank Spacer and bolts [110]
o Flat Flex plate [170]
Last edited by Richard_Strahl; 01-08-2019 at 01:02 AM.
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01-08-2019, 09:18 AM
#8
Restricted User
I'd skip the Head & Cam package and go straight for the blower.
Speed engineering exhaust is the price of just Hooker headers and I would definitely say its possible there stuff is better than Hooker.
Double roller timing chain isn't even close to necessary. I wouldn't even mess with the shortblock yet, either.
Speed engineering exhaust is the price of just Hooker headers and I would definitely say its possible there stuff is better than Hooker.
Double roller timing chain isn't even close to necessary. I wouldn't even mess with the shortblock yet, either.
01-09-2019, 04:13 PM
#9
Teching In
Thread Starter
If I'm not mistaken, I can push the blower to get about a 60% gain in HP. That should take it to around 480 to the wheels, which is only 30 more than what I should see with the heads and cams. Aside from the supercharger and components costing a few grand more than the heads and cams package, can the stock engine take getting that much boost reliability? I know the rear end sure can't, it can barely take factory power levels, lol.
01-09-2019, 06:18 PM
#10
Teching In
Thread Starter
Wait, wait... What do Hawks heads and cams package change the compression to? I'm thinking I got ahead of myself a bit there. I imagine I'll have to go with different heads anyway to have a lower compression. So basically it's either the blower or the package route.
I have yet again proven myself to be an idiot, I don't know why I'm so surprised every time -.- lol.
I have yet again proven myself to be an idiot, I don't know why I'm so surprised every time -.- lol.