Come on in Cam, Shiz, ATV, and Martin, boostit5.3 says to tune w/ knock sensors
10-25-2012, 08:18 AM
#1
Come on in Cam, Shiz, ATV, and Martin, boostit5.3 says to tune w/ knock sensors I started this thread because we were cluttering up the thread that DavidGXP had and that was very rude so I am sorry for doing so.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/nitrous-o...-100-shot.html
I started this in hopes that we can clear the air to some of the newer guys on here on what to use in tuning a car on nitrous and a knock sensor on an engine is not one of them.
Also, to get a little more in depth on the way of tuning a car more on the lean side and pull more timing than what is recommended because when you say to run a car lean, people get scared that they are going to blow their engine. That is not the case. If it was, alot of the big guys would have toasted there motors by now.
Lets discuss. boostit5.3 you have the floor. Or anybody for that matter.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/nitrous-o...-100-shot.html
I started this in hopes that we can clear the air to some of the newer guys on here on what to use in tuning a car on nitrous and a knock sensor on an engine is not one of them.
Also, to get a little more in depth on the way of tuning a car more on the lean side and pull more timing than what is recommended because when you say to run a car lean, people get scared that they are going to blow their engine. That is not the case. If it was, alot of the big guys would have toasted there motors by now.
Lets discuss. boostit5.3 you have the floor. Or anybody for that matter.
10-25-2012, 10:12 AM
#5
My knock sensors gain sensitivity is set at 8 across the board. 1 is stock. Lower the number the more sensitive they are, higher the number the less sensitive they are. This table goes from 0-16 in HP Tuners.
I have my max timing retard value set at 0. That's right zero.
Knock Sensors on these cars are ****, mine were showing knock with C16 in the tank, 26* total timing at a 12.9-13.1 AFR reading at WOT and my dynamic compression is ridiculously low. No way in the world should they of showed ANY knock yet they were.
Tune off of plugs, reference AFR reading to fuel ring/heat on the strap and reference heat on the strap to your timing on the bottle. If you have EGT's and pan vacuum logging capabilities, use them to tune off of as a reference to...once again....guess what....your plugs.
End of story.
I have my max timing retard value set at 0. That's right zero.
Knock Sensors on these cars are ****, mine were showing knock with C16 in the tank, 26* total timing at a 12.9-13.1 AFR reading at WOT and my dynamic compression is ridiculously low. No way in the world should they of showed ANY knock yet they were.
Tune off of plugs, reference AFR reading to fuel ring/heat on the strap and reference heat on the strap to your timing on the bottle. If you have EGT's and pan vacuum logging capabilities, use them to tune off of as a reference to...once again....guess what....your plugs.
End of story.
10-25-2012, 10:15 AM
#6
Thanks guys.
If you read the thread that I linked in my first post you would see that boostit5.3 went against all I said which was the same thing all you guys just posted.
I would just like some of the guys who taught me here to throw out their info and findings and share some of them with the guys here so when a newbie does a search and finds this thread, it will give insight that no matter what electronics are out there, reading your plugs are the first tuning tool you need. Not an AFR gauge or a knock sensor.
If you read the thread that I linked in my first post you would see that boostit5.3 went against all I said which was the same thing all you guys just posted.
I would just like some of the guys who taught me here to throw out their info and findings and share some of them with the guys here so when a newbie does a search and finds this thread, it will give insight that no matter what electronics are out there, reading your plugs are the first tuning tool you need. Not an AFR gauge or a knock sensor.
10-25-2012, 10:25 AM
#7
He is a tool...dont let some ignorant poster get you all worked up! The main detail boostit.53 missed was the fact that davids car is running more than stock timing for his NA tune. That means more timing must be pulled than what typically is a "standard" per say. Your right he is wrong and the world will still turn...
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10-25-2012, 10:36 AM
#8
Thanks guys.
If you read the thread that I linked in my first post you would see that boostit5.3 went against all I said which was the same thing all you guys just posted.
I would just like some of the guys who taught me here to throw out their info and findings and share some of them with the guys here so when a newbie does a search and finds this thread, it will give insight that no matter what electronics are out there, reading your plugs are the first tuning tool you need. Not an AFR gauge or a knock sensor.
If you read the thread that I linked in my first post you would see that boostit5.3 went against all I said which was the same thing all you guys just posted.
I would just like some of the guys who taught me here to throw out their info and findings and share some of them with the guys here so when a newbie does a search and finds this thread, it will give insight that no matter what electronics are out there, reading your plugs are the first tuning tool you need. Not an AFR gauge or a knock sensor.
Hopefully others will find it informative.
10-25-2012, 07:21 PM
#14
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I rarely look at mine anymore, its not anywhere near as accurate as reading the plugs. I log every run, so I find myself looking at it after I get home more than while I'm at the track.
10-26-2012, 07:34 AM
#17
Tuning by knock sensor is down right dangerous.
I do all tuning based on plugs, some EGT, pan vacuum, and et/mph.
Dont really care if the plugs look fat and low on timing if the car runs faster. EGT will show if one hole is hotter than another but still not perfect. Pan Vac indicates if cylinder pressures are getting out of hand.
I do all tuning based on plugs, some EGT, pan vacuum, and et/mph.
Dont really care if the plugs look fat and low on timing if the car runs faster. EGT will show if one hole is hotter than another but still not perfect. Pan Vac indicates if cylinder pressures are getting out of hand.
10-26-2012, 08:23 AM
#18
Timing advance serves one purpose.
To dictate when the fuel/air mixture is ignited.
The fuel/air mixture(in this case the nitrous makes up part of the air in the mixture) will dictate how much power is made, and timing only serves to light that mixture off.
Your engine has 4 strokes. Intake, compression, power, and exhaust. Ignition happens on the compression stroke. Once the F/A mixture is ignited and combustion happens, the piston is propelled downwards to BDC. The momentum the piston has from the compression stroke is used during the power stroke, the exhaust stroke and the intake stroke. When you end up back to the compression stroke the same cycle is repeated again.
I'm sure you're thinking..."why is this important to timing in a nitrous motor"? Here's why and it's very simple.
Since the momentum from the compression stroke is used for 3 of the engines 4 events it is very important to find the perfect medium of ignition timing and here is why...if you have too little timing, there will not be enough cylinder pressure generated during the compression stroke to carry the same momentum through the remaining 3 strokes of the engine until it returns to the compression stroke. This will show up as a slower e.t., mph or hp/tq. number.
On the other side of the coin, too much timing will carry enough momentum to not slow the piston/rod/crank down, BUT it will create excess heat from starting the combustion event too soon. This excess heat is absorbed by the walls of the cylinder, the piston, the valves and of course...the plug. This shows up as what we know as excess heat on the plug and will take the timing too far down the strap. It will also waste energy by using too much timing to carry the momentum needed to get back to the compression stroke, when a lesser amount would of carried the same amount of momentum needed to not lose power. Basically you end up fighting the natural up and down movement of the piston. End up with too much timing and not only will you lose power, you'll burn the straps off the plugs and maybe even start your own ashtray factory.
Now, all that being said....the perfect amount of timing, not too little not too much will carry the same momentum(piston speed) all the way through the remaining 3 strokes after the compression stroke and not create excess heat and will show as what we refer to as "the perfect plug reading". Not too cold, not too hot, just perfect because not too much or too little timing is being used. It will also not fight the up and down movement of the piston with too much timing, nor will it end up losing piston speed due to too little timing. You're lighting the combustion charge right at the point where the piston would of lost speed(power) if you hadn't lit it at just the right point in time.
That said, it's ALWAYS easier and safer to take more timing out than you know is rational because ALL it will do is lose power. If you don't sneak up on it and take it slow you're asking to dance with the devil....plain and simple.
Fuel/Air mixture determines how much power will be made, not timing. Timing does play a part in the power production, but not as much as you think. It's not some magic power adder that will boost your power output ten fold like a larger nitrous pill or leaning the fuel jet or fuel pressure out will.
Tuning off the knock sensors is just asking for trouble or asking to be slower than the guy next to you that doesn't. I've seen ridiculous things that the knock sensors do, like pulling 5 degrees of timing while I'm on the dyno with 26* total, 13.0 AFR, 10.33:1 static compression and C16 in the tank of my car. There is no reason why they should show knock, but they did. So I turned the damn things off.
I tune off my plugs, and then reference that reading to my total timing on the bottle, motor, boost whatever and what my AFR reading is in my data log.
Sorry for the long *** post, I just wanted to clear the air and hopefully shed some light in here.
To dictate when the fuel/air mixture is ignited.
The fuel/air mixture(in this case the nitrous makes up part of the air in the mixture) will dictate how much power is made, and timing only serves to light that mixture off.
Your engine has 4 strokes. Intake, compression, power, and exhaust. Ignition happens on the compression stroke. Once the F/A mixture is ignited and combustion happens, the piston is propelled downwards to BDC. The momentum the piston has from the compression stroke is used during the power stroke, the exhaust stroke and the intake stroke. When you end up back to the compression stroke the same cycle is repeated again.
I'm sure you're thinking..."why is this important to timing in a nitrous motor"? Here's why and it's very simple.
Since the momentum from the compression stroke is used for 3 of the engines 4 events it is very important to find the perfect medium of ignition timing and here is why...if you have too little timing, there will not be enough cylinder pressure generated during the compression stroke to carry the same momentum through the remaining 3 strokes of the engine until it returns to the compression stroke. This will show up as a slower e.t., mph or hp/tq. number.
On the other side of the coin, too much timing will carry enough momentum to not slow the piston/rod/crank down, BUT it will create excess heat from starting the combustion event too soon. This excess heat is absorbed by the walls of the cylinder, the piston, the valves and of course...the plug. This shows up as what we know as excess heat on the plug and will take the timing too far down the strap. It will also waste energy by using too much timing to carry the momentum needed to get back to the compression stroke, when a lesser amount would of carried the same amount of momentum needed to not lose power. Basically you end up fighting the natural up and down movement of the piston. End up with too much timing and not only will you lose power, you'll burn the straps off the plugs and maybe even start your own ashtray factory.
Now, all that being said....the perfect amount of timing, not too little not too much will carry the same momentum(piston speed) all the way through the remaining 3 strokes after the compression stroke and not create excess heat and will show as what we refer to as "the perfect plug reading". Not too cold, not too hot, just perfect because not too much or too little timing is being used. It will also not fight the up and down movement of the piston with too much timing, nor will it end up losing piston speed due to too little timing. You're lighting the combustion charge right at the point where the piston would of lost speed(power) if you hadn't lit it at just the right point in time.
That said, it's ALWAYS easier and safer to take more timing out than you know is rational because ALL it will do is lose power. If you don't sneak up on it and take it slow you're asking to dance with the devil....plain and simple.
Fuel/Air mixture determines how much power will be made, not timing. Timing does play a part in the power production, but not as much as you think. It's not some magic power adder that will boost your power output ten fold like a larger nitrous pill or leaning the fuel jet or fuel pressure out will.
Tuning off the knock sensors is just asking for trouble or asking to be slower than the guy next to you that doesn't. I've seen ridiculous things that the knock sensors do, like pulling 5 degrees of timing while I'm on the dyno with 26* total, 13.0 AFR, 10.33:1 static compression and C16 in the tank of my car. There is no reason why they should show knock, but they did. So I turned the damn things off.
I tune off my plugs, and then reference that reading to my total timing on the bottle, motor, boost whatever and what my AFR reading is in my data log.
Sorry for the long *** post, I just wanted to clear the air and hopefully shed some light in here.
10-26-2012, 08:33 AM
#19
boostit5.3 where are you?
I started this thread because you asked me to and so we could discuss this. I know you have saw this thread. No one here is going to bash you for your statements and if they do I will ask Cam to step in and moderate.
This more to teach and learn from.
I know a good bit but I still learn from ATV, Shiz, Cam, Andy, Martin everyday on here.
On the short side of what Martin put in his little timing spheel, is that heat is power and timing can control that. Too little timing=not much heat and you just run slower, too much timing= alot of heat and you melt stuff (plugs, rings, ringlands, etc) You can create heat with timing or by tuning on the lean side.
I started this thread because you asked me to and so we could discuss this. I know you have saw this thread. No one here is going to bash you for your statements and if they do I will ask Cam to step in and moderate.
This more to teach and learn from.
I know a good bit but I still learn from ATV, Shiz, Cam, Andy, Martin everyday on here.
On the short side of what Martin put in his little timing spheel, is that heat is power and timing can control that. Too little timing=not much heat and you just run slower, too much timing= alot of heat and you melt stuff (plugs, rings, ringlands, etc) You can create heat with timing or by tuning on the lean side.
10-26-2012, 05:55 PM
#20
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thanks alot 87silverbullet for the response, glad to here what u said , indeed i am here to learn , do you know where i might see some pic of plug that are being read????, the visual bout the ashtray was sweeeet, like the way its broke down,
i also was looking 4 stock oil psi 4 my 5.7 with no luck, im thinking my regulator spring is jacked up 56psi warn idle 10/30 ac delco filter & 80psi or more @wot used an adapator at oil filter to get readings , ive read too much is bad and can deflect the crank at high pressures and work against u, any advise would be great
i also was looking 4 stock oil psi 4 my 5.7 with no luck, im thinking my regulator spring is jacked up 56psi warn idle 10/30 ac delco filter & 80psi or more @wot used an adapator at oil filter to get readings , ive read too much is bad and can deflect the crank at high pressures and work against u, any advise would be great
Last edited by M1SERY; 10-26-2012 at 08:03 PM. Reason: for got to ask oil psi Q: