New SHP LSNext Motor set-up, plug pic and N.O. Plate Question
06-24-2017, 11:57 AM
#1
New SHP LSNext Motor set-up, plug pic and N.O. Plate Question Been a while since I posted on here. I was loving my new motor for the last 2 seasons. It was easy to tune, made good power and was consistent 9.60s at 143 in my 3850 llbs car (with me in it). Even cut some low 1.30 sixty foots. All good things come to an end though and the motor had a rod failure and the rest you know. My new build is a Dart 427 c.i. LS Next steel, fully skirted block, Callie's Dragon Slayer crank, Callie's Ultra H-Beam rods and custom forged LS7 Diamond pistons gapped for 350 shot. Being built by Borowski Performance. Cam is 247/263 .653/.632 113+3 spec'd for 350 shot. Heads will be my existing AFR 225 with 65cc chambers for 11.1:1 compression. Running that through a Performabuilt Black Edition 4L60e and s custom Mark Williams 12 bolt with wavetrack, 3.73 gears and 35 spline axles. Exhaust is 1 7/8 inch headers to 3" cut-outs. My question is, on my FAST 102mm plate I have run a 300 shot 100s of times with no issues and good distribution determined by plug readings. At some point I will want to push the new motor to a 350 shot. I would dial in the 300, move to 325, check plugs and if ok move to 350. I'm running a dedicated with 112 and 112 in the main tank mixed with a little 94. 6 AN feedline. Plugs on the 300 (99/43) were non-projected #10s. Timing was 12 degrees. My question is: has anyone run a 102mm Nitrous Outlet FAST plate to 350 rwhp shot of nitrous? What additional things should I consider. I would think on the 350 - timing at total 10 degrees (N/A tune at 28 degrees) #11 plug, 116 octane. Apprecate feedback, especially guys like ATV racer, Carter01 and of course Dave and the gang at Nitrous Outlet.
Last edited by CanadianEh!; 06-30-2017 at 04:07 PM.
06-26-2017, 03:11 AM
#2
I am very interested on how your motor turns out from Borowski. Have been asking and no one seems to have any real world experience (good or bad) with them after the new owner took over in 2010. That is almost the same motor that we want to build. Only difference would be the heads would be the Brodix 285 br7s. You might want to get the Dart Next2 block at that power level though. Lots of room for improvement. I was told the fully skirted block was only good for 1200hp. Your going to be close to that on a 350 shot. Please let us know how everything turns out if you don't mind. Thanks in advance.
06-26-2017, 10:16 AM
#3
Plug from Old Motor (#6) This is the plug from my old LS402 (in signature) Only 75 runs on the motor. Probably 350-400 runs (250-300 shot) on the callies h-beam rods and daily driver for 20-30 km as well. Checked all other plugs which were perfect. Same tune I have run 100s of times. No broken springs so thinking rod let go and piston impacted plug. motor getting pulled this week. Still ran a 9.7 at 142 on the run!
06-27-2017, 05:13 AM
#4
Will do. Dart states SHP LSNext steel block good to 1500 hp. Compared to my stock LS2 Block this block is stout!
I am very interested on how your motor turns out from Borowski. Have been asking and no one seems to have any real world experience (good or bad) with them after the new owner took over in 2010. That is almost the same motor that we want to build. Only difference would be the heads would be the Brodix 285 br7s. You might want to get the Dart Next2 block at that power level though. Lots of room for improvement. I was told the fully skirted block was only good for 1200hp. Your going to be close to that on a 350 shot. Please let us know how everything turns out if you don't mind. Thanks in advance.
06-27-2017, 06:49 AM
#5
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On my Fast 102 LS3 intake and Nitrous Outlet 2 stage plate, I was running into distribution issues at 300, too me it started to loose efficiency. in the 8th on a 150 shot I went 6:20's and then 300 went 6.00's consistently.
1/4 mile went 9:80's on a 150 shot. we left it at that as the tune was so easy to race on it. There was 2 to 3 cylinders that we had problems with, we could have taken care of each cyclinder with tuning but after we talked to a few people they told us it was common on a Fast to have some distribution at the 300 level. Each car is different. It's been a few years and wished I saved the data logs.
I was lucky as I just melted plugs. X16 in my standalone, think timing was at 14.
Had 8's and tried 10's
now I'm carbed and miss the FI
1/4 mile went 9:80's on a 150 shot. we left it at that as the tune was so easy to race on it. There was 2 to 3 cylinders that we had problems with, we could have taken care of each cyclinder with tuning but after we talked to a few people they told us it was common on a Fast to have some distribution at the 300 level. Each car is different. It's been a few years and wished I saved the data logs.
I was lucky as I just melted plugs. X16 in my standalone, think timing was at 14.
Had 8's and tried 10's
now I'm carbed and miss the FI
06-27-2017, 09:52 PM
#6
On my Fast 102 LS3 intake and Nitrous Outlet 2 stage plate, I was running into distribution issues at 300, too me it started to loose efficiency. in the 8th on a 150 shot I went 6:20's and then 300 went 6.00's consistently.
1/4 mile went 9:80's on a 150 shot. we left it at that as the tune was so easy to race on it. There was 2 to 3 cylinders that we had problems with, we could have taken care of each cyclinder with tuning but after we talked to a few people they told us it was common on a Fast to have some distribution at the 300 level. Each car is different. It's been a few years and wished I saved the data logs.
I was lucky as I just melted plugs. X16 in my standalone, think timing was at 14.
Had 8's and tried 10's
now I'm carbed and miss the FI
1/4 mile went 9:80's on a 150 shot. we left it at that as the tune was so easy to race on it. There was 2 to 3 cylinders that we had problems with, we could have taken care of each cyclinder with tuning but after we talked to a few people they told us it was common on a Fast to have some distribution at the 300 level. Each car is different. It's been a few years and wished I saved the data logs.
I was lucky as I just melted plugs. X16 in my standalone, think timing was at 14.
Had 8's and tried 10's
now I'm carbed and miss the FI
Both setups were with 93 in the tank and c16 in the stand alone. New setup is a single plane and probably renegade 120n in the tank.
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06-28-2017, 11:04 AM
#8
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NOS Spark Plug Hi EH!, I like Nitrous Supply, Mike Thermos, the inventor of NOS and modern Nitrous Oxide Injection.
The NOS company you choose should be the one to "spec" orifice size.
Your choice of Nitrous Outlet is VERY WELL STATED.
My guess is the BOTH companies will "spec" the same sizes.
My expertise is the Ignition.
1. Spark Plug = Autolite 3922x Racing Plug or 3923x Racing Plug
These are the same sparkplugs used in NASCAR
2. The Crankshaft should be fitted with the 58x (60-2) Target Wheel and Gray sensor.
3. The Ignition Coil = The IGN-1A with 280Mj of energy and would be best for your level of requested HP using a .040" SPG.
4. The Firecore 50 Spark Plug Wire would also be best.
The Camshaft "specs" ARE very good for a NOS engine.
Lance
The NOS company you choose should be the one to "spec" orifice size.
Your choice of Nitrous Outlet is VERY WELL STATED.
My guess is the BOTH companies will "spec" the same sizes.
My expertise is the Ignition.
1. Spark Plug = Autolite 3922x Racing Plug or 3923x Racing Plug
These are the same sparkplugs used in NASCAR
2. The Crankshaft should be fitted with the 58x (60-2) Target Wheel and Gray sensor.
3. The Ignition Coil = The IGN-1A with 280Mj of energy and would be best for your level of requested HP using a .040" SPG.
4. The Firecore 50 Spark Plug Wire would also be best.
The Camshaft "specs" ARE very good for a NOS engine.
Lance
06-30-2017, 07:19 AM
#9
Thanks for the feedback! Appreciate the feedback everyone! I'll update as the build and testing comes around. Expect to have the new motor back from Borowski Performance within the next weeks.....I will likely not spray more than 300 through the plate and wait for a direct port upgrade.
06-30-2017, 01:38 PM
#10
Heck man, I'm pumped for you. Can't wait to hear the results. What are you thinking? About a 1000HP at the flywheel? With the 300 shot.
06-30-2017, 02:03 PM
#11
That should be close. 515 rwhp on old LS402 and the 300 rwhp shot. I'm hoping new motor makes a little more n/a with the extra cubes and the new Tick recommended cam and ring gap are designed to make the 350 shot. Specs 247/263 .653/.632 113+3.
07-01-2017, 07:06 PM
#15
Here is the information from Martin Smallwood when I spec'd my Nitrous cam for my previous motor....
Ok Mike, I'm going to give you a couple options.
I'm sure your current camshaft drives like a dream with how small it is in relevance to the c.i." of your engine. That said, we both know how grossly inadequate it is in clearing the spent exhaust gas from the cylinder along with allowing fresh charge to fill that cylinder. To gain this added evacuation and cylinder fill needed we have to utilize more valve overlap.
Overlap harnesses the harmonics present in the intake and exhaust tracts and uses them to purge spent gas from the cylinder and capitalizes on the momentum and inertia of that outgoing spent gas to pull fresh charge in. The more spent gas we get out the more fresh charge we can put in. Meaning more fuel to be burned with more nitrous and more power as a result.
The camshafts I'm going to recommend may seem big to you versus what you have now, but if you have any type of competent tuner these camshafts should be of no issue for him to tune.
I'm going to give you a few options based on how much you're willing to give up in driving manners and in performance. Obviously anything will be better than what you have now, but how much better will be up to.
First cam is the smallest camshaft I feel that will show a marked improvement over your current camshaft, but still drive as similar as possible to that current camshaft. This cam will not pick up the full 350hp on nitrous that you're spraying and will probably stop gaining the full amount of nitrous sprayed around 225-250hp worth of volume. Anything higher and it will not pick up the full amount of volume you're spraying. Torque has to be able to sustain far enough into the operating range to gain that full amount of HP. Spent gas trying to be burned twice will not allow that.
First cam specs: 237/252 .622/.595 115+4
Second cam is the second largest camshaft and will drive similarly, but will have some slight nuances if you lock the converter at too low of a MPH. Anything under 45-50mph with the converter locked may produce some slight surging. This cam will stop gaining the full amount of nitrous being sprayed around 250-275hp. Just so you know, IMO your current cam will stop gaining the amount of nitrous you're spraying around 150-175hp, if even that. After that it will not gain the full amount.
Second cam specs: 239/254 .624/.595 114+3
Third cam specs are is the cam that I truly feel is best for you based on still being able to keep a very drivable vehicle, while delivering the most performance possible while keeping those manners. It will stop picking up the full amount you're spraying around 275-300hp and may even go as far as 325hp, but I doubt it with 1x7/8" headers. This cam will need to not have the converter locked until 50mph.
Third cam specs: 243/258 .624/.595 113+3
Now, if you want to know what cam you need to gain the full 350hp of nitrous you say you spray, this is what it would look like:
247/263 .653/.632 113+3
This cam would, "Do it all," as they say. When we're introducing as much nitrous as you are we have to give the engine time to expel the spent exhaust gas that is created as a by product. We also have to give more time to fill that cylinder as well.
Hope this helps and gives you a good basis to make a decision off of.
You also need new spring IMO as those Patriot springs were known for losing spring rate incredibly quickly.
--
Ok Mike, I'm going to give you a couple options.
I'm sure your current camshaft drives like a dream with how small it is in relevance to the c.i." of your engine. That said, we both know how grossly inadequate it is in clearing the spent exhaust gas from the cylinder along with allowing fresh charge to fill that cylinder. To gain this added evacuation and cylinder fill needed we have to utilize more valve overlap.
Overlap harnesses the harmonics present in the intake and exhaust tracts and uses them to purge spent gas from the cylinder and capitalizes on the momentum and inertia of that outgoing spent gas to pull fresh charge in. The more spent gas we get out the more fresh charge we can put in. Meaning more fuel to be burned with more nitrous and more power as a result.
The camshafts I'm going to recommend may seem big to you versus what you have now, but if you have any type of competent tuner these camshafts should be of no issue for him to tune.
I'm going to give you a few options based on how much you're willing to give up in driving manners and in performance. Obviously anything will be better than what you have now, but how much better will be up to.
First cam is the smallest camshaft I feel that will show a marked improvement over your current camshaft, but still drive as similar as possible to that current camshaft. This cam will not pick up the full 350hp on nitrous that you're spraying and will probably stop gaining the full amount of nitrous sprayed around 225-250hp worth of volume. Anything higher and it will not pick up the full amount of volume you're spraying. Torque has to be able to sustain far enough into the operating range to gain that full amount of HP. Spent gas trying to be burned twice will not allow that.
First cam specs: 237/252 .622/.595 115+4
Second cam is the second largest camshaft and will drive similarly, but will have some slight nuances if you lock the converter at too low of a MPH. Anything under 45-50mph with the converter locked may produce some slight surging. This cam will stop gaining the full amount of nitrous being sprayed around 250-275hp. Just so you know, IMO your current cam will stop gaining the amount of nitrous you're spraying around 150-175hp, if even that. After that it will not gain the full amount.
Second cam specs: 239/254 .624/.595 114+3
Third cam specs are is the cam that I truly feel is best for you based on still being able to keep a very drivable vehicle, while delivering the most performance possible while keeping those manners. It will stop picking up the full amount you're spraying around 275-300hp and may even go as far as 325hp, but I doubt it with 1x7/8" headers. This cam will need to not have the converter locked until 50mph.
Third cam specs: 243/258 .624/.595 113+3
Now, if you want to know what cam you need to gain the full 350hp of nitrous you say you spray, this is what it would look like:
247/263 .653/.632 113+3
This cam would, "Do it all," as they say. When we're introducing as much nitrous as you are we have to give the engine time to expel the spent exhaust gas that is created as a by product. We also have to give more time to fill that cylinder as well.
Hope this helps and gives you a good basis to make a decision off of.
You also need new spring IMO as those Patriot springs were known for losing spring rate incredibly quickly.
--
07-15-2017, 10:05 AM
#17
Heads are toast so went to a Long Block... Well, finally pulled the heads and it seems clear we dropped the valve seat in #6 which interfered with the valve which contacted the piston. The head is so badly damaged it cannot be repaired. Motor is Ok other than piston damage. Given this I will rebuild the motor for re-sale and went with a complete long-block from Borowski. Dart SHP LS Next 427 c.i. With Dart Pro1 LS3 Heads with iconnel exhaust valves. Swapped to a FAST LS3 with the guys at Borowski giving me $600.00 for my Cathedral 102mm FAST. Great guys to deal with and it ships next week. Dynoed at 640 n/a and 1000 on a 300 shot using a puck and Victor 3. It will be interesting to see the difference at the track! Went to a Maximizer 5 for safety and control of a/f. I will also be interested to see how this works in real life. I'll post results....
[QUOTE=CanadianEh!;19658028]Been a while since I posted on here. I was loving my new motor for the last 2 seasons. It was easy to tune, made good power and was consistent 9.60s at 143 in my 3850 llbs car (with me in it). Even cut some low 1.30 sixty foots. All good things come to an end though and the motor had a rod failure and the rest you know. My new build is a Dart 427 c.i. LS Next steel, fully skirted block, Callie's Dragon Slayer crank, Callie's Ultra H-Beam rods and custom forged LS7 Diamond pistons gapped for 350 shot. Being built by Borowski Performance. Cam is 247/263 .653/.632 113+3 spec'd for 350 shot. Heads will be my existing AFR 225 with 65cc chambers for 11.1:1 compression. Running that through a Performabuilt Black Edition 4L60e and s custom Mark Williams 12 bolt with wavetrack, 3.73 gears and 35 spline axles. Exhaust is 1 7/8 inch headers to 3" cut-outs. My question is, on my FAST 102mm plate I have run a 300 shot 100s of times with no issues and good distribution determined by plug readings. At some point I will want to push the new motor to a 350 shot. I would dial in the 300, move to 325, check plugs and if ok move to 350. I'm running a dedicated with 112 and 112 in the main tank mixed with a little 94. 6 AN feedline. Plugs on the 300 (99/43) were non-projected #10s. Timing was 12 degrees. My question is: has anyone run a 102mm Nitrous Outlet FAST plate to 350 rwhp shot of nitrous? What additional things should I consider. I would think on the 350 - timing at total 10 degrees (N/A tune at 28 degrees) #11 plug, 116 octane. Apprecate feedback, especially guys like ATV racer, Carter01 and of course Dave and the gang at Nitrous Outlet.[/QU
[QUOTE=CanadianEh!;19658028]Been a while since I posted on here. I was loving my new motor for the last 2 seasons. It was easy to tune, made good power and was consistent 9.60s at 143 in my 3850 llbs car (with me in it). Even cut some low 1.30 sixty foots. All good things come to an end though and the motor had a rod failure and the rest you know. My new build is a Dart 427 c.i. LS Next steel, fully skirted block, Callie's Dragon Slayer crank, Callie's Ultra H-Beam rods and custom forged LS7 Diamond pistons gapped for 350 shot. Being built by Borowski Performance. Cam is 247/263 .653/.632 113+3 spec'd for 350 shot. Heads will be my existing AFR 225 with 65cc chambers for 11.1:1 compression. Running that through a Performabuilt Black Edition 4L60e and s custom Mark Williams 12 bolt with wavetrack, 3.73 gears and 35 spline axles. Exhaust is 1 7/8 inch headers to 3" cut-outs. My question is, on my FAST 102mm plate I have run a 300 shot 100s of times with no issues and good distribution determined by plug readings. At some point I will want to push the new motor to a 350 shot. I would dial in the 300, move to 325, check plugs and if ok move to 350. I'm running a dedicated with 112 and 112 in the main tank mixed with a little 94. 6 AN feedline. Plugs on the 300 (99/43) were non-projected #10s. Timing was 12 degrees. My question is: has anyone run a 102mm Nitrous Outlet FAST plate to 350 rwhp shot of nitrous? What additional things should I consider. I would think on the 350 - timing at total 10 degrees (N/A tune at 28 degrees) #11 plug, 116 octane. Apprecate feedback, especially guys like ATV racer, Carter01 and of course Dave and the gang at Nitrous Outlet.[/QU
Last edited by CanadianEh!; 07-15-2017 at 10:11 AM.