Another e85 question
01-17-2018, 11:02 AM
#21
i would never recommend starting that way either, i would defiantly start safe and slowly add timing. i however could see how it would be possible since you are starting with a way lower combustion temp before the nitrous comes into play with e85. temp is what causes the rings to expand and but ends and temp also causes melted pistons etc. so starting with that wayy lower temp in the cylinder i could see how if not N/A timing is possible at least way more aggressive timing could be possible.
01-17-2018, 11:20 AM
#22
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Thread Starter
Come on Brandon, I'm gonna hope that was rhetorical because I really don't want to crack open the thermodynamics table and bust out the calculator. The pressure differences, flow rates, molecule size, etc all sounds like way to much work right now.
Lets just say that the nitrous cools the air charge a hell of a lot better than the corn juice does.
Lets just say that the nitrous cools the air charge a hell of a lot better than the corn juice does.
01-17-2018, 11:29 AM
#23
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Any thoughts on this idea?
Also the same source said really big shots with alcohol the Nitrous can start to cool the fuel and that can cause adverse effects? Any exsperiance with this one way or the other?
01-17-2018, 01:18 PM
#24
You're referring to E85's latent heat energy and its ability to cool the air around it while vaporizing. Now, on boosted applications, this has a great benefit. It's to knock down IAT's that are high because the air just left a compressor. On nitrous and NA applications, E85's best property is its octane rating(around 110). Now, 110 is great and all but for racing applications, on nitrous, there are better fuels. Our IAT's aren't high to begin with so not much gain there. Plus, we're shooting super cold nitrous into the motor. Do I think E85 is good for nitrous? It works. But, there are better fuels you could use. In the end its all up to your specific combination and what works for you. For street cars spraying less than 250, E85 is fine. For all out race applications, there are better fuels for nitrous cars. Just my $.02
And on the alcohol deal, he's right. Alcohol doesn't like to vaporize and come apart when cooled. In fact, its molecules want to clump together. Thus, showing less air(o2) to the fuel and resulting in poor combustion.
And on the alcohol deal, he's right. Alcohol doesn't like to vaporize and come apart when cooled. In fact, its molecules want to clump together. Thus, showing less air(o2) to the fuel and resulting in poor combustion.
01-17-2018, 02:59 PM
#26
TECH Junkie
Thread Starter
Some very good info there. Thanks brandon.
I agree there are better fuels from a performance standpoint, but from a convenience standpoint (because this will actually be a streetcar...not a "streetcar") it's the best option guys like me have from the pump. No mixing fuels. No carrying gas cans. No additives needed. And its CHEAP.
I agree there are better fuels from a performance standpoint, but from a convenience standpoint (because this will actually be a streetcar...not a "streetcar") it's the best option guys like me have from the pump. No mixing fuels. No carrying gas cans. No additives needed. And its CHEAP.
01-17-2018, 03:48 PM
#28
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I will have wideband logged through stock ECU with HpTuners as well as a flex fuel sensor so I can always monitor.
Around me most pumps are quite consistent (I actually have 4 or 5 ethanol plants within an hour of my house) so jetting shouldn't be too big of a deal. But i'll be able to constantly monitor the fuel and make changes accordingly
Around me most pumps are quite consistent (I actually have 4 or 5 ethanol plants within an hour of my house) so jetting shouldn't be too big of a deal. But i'll be able to constantly monitor the fuel and make changes accordingly
01-17-2018, 04:10 PM
#29
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E85 is an option compared to pump 93 In the main tank and c16 in the standalone. For guys that drive to the track getting a full tank of c16 or c23 isn’t really practical. The boost guys are able to push e85 really far and I think that’s one of the reasons it seems appealing for Nitrous.
01-17-2018, 05:04 PM
#30
You're referring to E85's latent heat energy and its ability to cool the air around it while vaporizing. Now, on boosted applications, this has a great benefit. It's to knock down IAT's that are high because the air just left a compressor. On nitrous and NA applications, E85's best property is its octane rating(around 110). Now, 110 is great and all but for racing applications, on nitrous, there are better fuels. Our IAT's aren't high to begin with so not much gain there. Plus, we're shooting super cold nitrous into the motor. Do I think E85 is good for nitrous? It works. But, there are better fuels you could use. In the end its all up to your specific combination and what works for you. For street cars spraying less than 250, E85 is fine. For all out race applications, there are better fuels for nitrous cars. Just my $.02
And on the alcohol deal, he's right. Alcohol doesn't like to vaporize and come apart when cooled. In fact, its molecules want to clump together. Thus, showing less air(o2) to the fuel and resulting in poor combustion.
And on the alcohol deal, he's right. Alcohol doesn't like to vaporize and come apart when cooled. In fact, its molecules want to clump together. Thus, showing less air(o2) to the fuel and resulting in poor combustion.
Myself want to run E85 bracket most of the time and a few fun races a year hit it 300? I have been ok with VP 110 so I assumed E85 would be a cheaper option at 30-50 gallons a month.
01-18-2018, 09:05 AM
#31
So I take it you wouldn't recommend E85 and a 300 shot or 400 shot? Is it the tune problems or are we talking ashtrays from to much heat?
Myself want to run E85 bracket most of the time and a few fun races a year hit it 300? I have been ok with VP 110 so I assumed E85 would be a cheaper option at 30-50 gallons a month.
Myself want to run E85 bracket most of the time and a few fun races a year hit it 300? I have been ok with VP 110 so I assumed E85 would be a cheaper option at 30-50 gallons a month.
01-21-2018, 09:57 PM
#32
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I know when I tried to read plugs it was near impossible to read as they looked brand new still. The thing is I never pulled timing in a 125 shot to 150 range on a NOS kit even on reg gas. But what's funny is that when I went higher I started to pull over 10 on a 200 shot and went to 16 on a 300 shot. E85 I pulled the same to be safe but scaled back to 10 but was carbed so it was 26 total on a 300. I also went to a br7 and was on 8's on gasoline with a 300. Br7 seemed to be ok on a 300 and e85. Better start up and warmed up quicker. 8's always took my engine a lil longer to smooth out.
. Biggest thing for me was reading the timing strap to see where it was. I've had a Nitrous outlet 102 2 stage plate and now a puck installed on a catb intake. Hoping to hit 8's these season. Car will go single digits na
. Biggest thing for me was reading the timing strap to see where it was. I've had a Nitrous outlet 102 2 stage plate and now a puck installed on a catb intake. Hoping to hit 8's these season. Car will go single digits na
01-23-2018, 04:44 PM
#34
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if you mean by cc size in head, then no it's around 70 cc range I believe. Not milled at all. AFR's so hard to tell on my gauge as its in the glove box for the sleeper look so I look for the green, but I tried to be in the 11 range. my gauge is on the gas scale so I convert it over for e85. gauge picks up same reading but just not displayed in correct scale. so I use the color to look quick in high gear to see where I'm at lol
on e85 I believe the window is a lot bigger then pump gas or even standalone for race gas and pump gas on motor which I did too.
I ran 250 on e85 and system didn't pull timing and I was on 34 or 36 total in 1/4 mile and didn't see anything that might have been damaged, wish I logged it. but not willing to take that chance again.
Biggest thing I see in mistakes is not haveing enough pump to keep up with demand of fuel. I run 8an to and 8an from tank. I have a triple hat system with 2 pumps.
oh I did ask once if I could have a co pilot to look at my gauges as I made a pass, yep NOPE!! lol
On pump gas it was a little easier as you can look at the plugs and decide more gas, more nitrous more timing etc. on e85 I would look for knock if you can log it (FI)
if carb, possibly engine temps right after the run.
on e85 I believe the window is a lot bigger then pump gas or even standalone for race gas and pump gas on motor which I did too.
I ran 250 on e85 and system didn't pull timing and I was on 34 or 36 total in 1/4 mile and didn't see anything that might have been damaged, wish I logged it. but not willing to take that chance again.
Biggest thing I see in mistakes is not haveing enough pump to keep up with demand of fuel. I run 8an to and 8an from tank. I have a triple hat system with 2 pumps.
oh I did ask once if I could have a co pilot to look at my gauges as I made a pass, yep NOPE!! lol
On pump gas it was a little easier as you can look at the plugs and decide more gas, more nitrous more timing etc. on e85 I would look for knock if you can log it (FI)
if carb, possibly engine temps right after the run.
05-21-2018, 08:59 PM
#36
Why .75 on spray? IMO that's waaay too rich. I know the whole, old school rich is safe mentality but IMO it's wrong.
Whatever Lambda your make peak/safe power NA, use the same Lambda when spraying.
I think you are more likely to hurt the engine running too rich...
Whatever Lambda your make peak/safe power NA, use the same Lambda when spraying.
I think you are more likely to hurt the engine running too rich...