Your hot idle appears to be in open loop. I see that in the tune.
It also appears that it is dead lean if your wideband is believable and set up correctly. The clue is that it flatlines at 15.22 AFR.
I thought the RFM500 would read leaner?
Also see that you are tuning for E10.

Anyway, it seems to me that your VE table needs work in the idle area.

Id tend to suggest that your Base running airflow is incorrect and hard to tune due to the no start. The curve looks very odd.
I also see that you have added quite a lot of Friction airflow and startup airflow.

Lastly, you have all of the adaptive idle settings set to 0. Just curious why?

You have a cam with 16 degrees of overlap and a big *** throttle body. So this will be tricky.

I would set the friction and startup airflow back to stock. As well as the adaptive idle stuff.
Then I would get it idling at 14.2 AF. Who knows how lean it really is.
I would also put the base running airflow back to stock, then add 5 g/sec to the whole table.
Cranking VE back to stock as well.
Cranking fuel back to stock too.

Then try a cold start and report the log file.
Zero guarantees.....

Would also like to ask why you have applied a 1 BAR VE enhanced tune? What are the advantages to that?

Have you read this? As mrvedit suggested?

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...de-(w-pictures)

Ron

 

I'll put the cranking VE and fueling tables back to stock. Though when they were stock it also did this, but I did have the FAST TB at the time. I may just not have had enough airflow through it.

The VE table is tuned - it's as lean as it is because that's what the cam wanted. It does not idle with it richer. It surges like crazy. It's a big cam and really wants a very lean idle condition.

Base running airflow was tuned based off what it was asking for - I've run the RAF process a lot. But once I start playing with fueling or TB position stop, I have to go back in and adjust it. I've made so many changes in the last week that I need to re-run the RAF.

1-BAR SD allows for use of both high and low spark tables as well as a couple of other things.

And I have read that. The fact is, I had Ed Hutchings work on this tune too. A lot of the items you're questioning is what he changed. It idles much more solidly than it did. The startup and friction airflow were his mods as a response to the cold start issue.

 

The lean idle is part of your problems IMO. It will idle richer but not with the amount of timing you have at ilde. I have cams in the 250/260 duration and .660+ lift idle without making them super lean.

I agree with the direction Ron posted. Thats the direction I would go if it were me.

I know Ed and he definitely knows what he is doing. I don't think anyone is questioning that. But it doesnt matter who changed what if your having problems then something is still off.

 

I do have good throttle response though. We leaned it out until it would idle without adaptive spark. But it had zero throttle response. We added 2% fuel until response came back.

Remember I have 52lbs ev14 injectors too. I don't know if they need less in the VE table versus say a 36 or 42lbs injector.

I'm about to go fire it up and see. I'll let you know how it does and post my revised tune, and log with wideband.

 

Injectors should have no effect on the VE table; if they do that indicates the injector tables are not correct. I will check your injectors tables this evening and compare them to both stock 52lb Bosch EV14 injectors and Deutchwerks slightly modified 52lb Bosch EV14 injectors.

Commenting on Ron's suggestions, I think adding 5 g/sec to the Idle Base table is too much. My numbers with 419ci and 19 degree overlap cam are about 3g/sec more than stock.

I run about 22* advance at idle which is clearly less than what gives me best kPa or idle speed. In Park, the idle adjustment typically cuts the advance by about 3* and in Drive it increase the advance by about 3* to give me equal idle speed (950) in both modes.

I don't understand "It's a big cam and really wants a very lean idle"; I thought the opposite was true. I have adjusted my VE and PE tables to give me about 13.5 AFR at/below 1200 RPM. Correct me if i am wrong about this.

All of the other tables that Ron mentioned I have stock. My engine starts within 2-3 revolutions. I currently have to give a little throttle on a warm start, but am working to figure that out.
Just my 1-cent worth as I don't think it is worth 2 cents yet.

 

I'm going by what Ed told me and also what I noticed before I contacted him. I'd lean it out with the bi-directional controls and the idle was better. The reason for the lean condition with the bigger cams is they have no efficiency at low RPM. Dumping fuel at idle is not the best way to get a stable idle. But there's still something up with mine. It's close enough that I can drive it around with no issue, but it's still not perfect. I'm just trying to get it there (and solve the cold start issue whcih was there since Day 1). I'm going to put a fuel pressure gauge on the rail and see if i'm bleeding off fuel as it cools. if so, that is not a tune related issue.

I will say though that there is a tremendous amount of timing at idle. It does hold a better kPa number with those numbers, but they are higher than I've seen others run with similar combos.

 

Also, here is the latest tune and idle log.

I should have put my wideband in open air to recalibrate. I've left it in the pipe too long and it was telling me it needed to recalibrate, but I didn't and so now I'm not sure how accurate the AFR readings are. I'll have to go pull it off the car and let it calibrate before the next log (once it cools off). The errors are enormous. I have tuned with this wideband before and nothing has changed to throw off the VE table by counts of 50+ so take them with a grain of salt... Also, it's raining, so I didn't drive it around. I just let it sit in the garage and idle.

Attached in the tune used to create the log fle. I kept my EOIT at 6.25 for now. The VE table had been tuned there so I wanted to keep that variable out of the equation. Also, I returned the cranking VE to stock. I also added 1 degree of timing to the startup spark table (now 3 degrees over stock) and added fuel in the cranking fuel tables. You can see it's still not wanting to start.

As far as the log goes, it idles in P/N first until it gets some heat in it and the RPMs are still way too high. The RAF called for is higher than what's in the tune. I'm not sure why it's idling 200 RPM more than commanded. Even if i take over with bi-directional controls and command 800 it doesn't budge. You can tell when I go into gear, the RPMs drop to 950ish and the timing map goes crazy. But it holds. And when warm and driving, it doesn't die coming to a stop sign or anything. I'm about ready to throw the FAST TB back on there with a hogged out IAC and see if that makes any difference at all.

Log reference frames:

Frame 900 = In Gear idle
Frame 1500 = P/N idle again
Frame 1700 = in gear idle again
Frame 1900 = in gear with A/C on
Frame 2300 = P/N with A/C on
Frame 2600 = P/N idle with no A/C
Frame 2670 = free rev in P/n
Frame 3370 = back to in gear idle
Frame 3600 = in gear with a/c again
Frame 3800 = back to p/n idle with a few revs

 

I added 30% to the afterstart enrichment initial adder vs ECT table. It fired right up! Not a cold start - but at 130 degrees ECT, but it's never fired right up with that either.

 

Just FYI - I compared your injector tables to another source for 52lb EV14 and they are spot on.

Good to hear that you are finally making progress; I'm confident you will soon have easy starts. I'll be curious to compare your final tune with your earlier one so that I can learn from this too.

 

I assume this is the table that has values like this:
2.5000 1.7998 1.0986 0.7734 0.5605 0.2754 0.2754 0.2754 0.2754 0.1914 0.1475 0.0420 0.0420 0.0605 0.0879 0.0879

At e.g. 90F the value is 0.275. Who knows what these values do?
Jake: and you increased this by 30% to e.g. .358?

Thanks. I learning here too.

 

That's exactly right. I didn't have any hot restart issues. So I didn't mess with the warmer ECTs. Just those where I've had issues. 30% seemed to do the trick.

I also added fuel in the cranking fuel tables as well. IIRC it was 20%... and I returned the Cranking VE table to stock (I had it more in line with my stock VE table - but that was too lean). All of it combined to provide enough fuel to actually "light off."

 

As for the cold driving stuff... I think I've figured it out as well.

I am in OL at idle and CL above 1200 RPM. So the Open Loop F/A table only works on the idle - so adding fuel there doesn't help with off-idle stumble, sluggish response, or other lean condition driving. It makes sense when I hit the gas for it to sputter and act wonky unless I get into PE mode when the motor is still "cold." What table would I need to look at the increase fueling in the CL portion of the colder ECTs? Or do I have to rely on the O2s to help enrich the mixture until I am up to temp?

I ask, because my VE table is extremely lean at the lower RPMs, but at temp, that's exactly where the car wants it to be. I need to find a way to add fuel in to the CL operation based on temp. What table can help me do that? Is it under transient fueling?

Well one thing I found as I reviewed my tune - I had set my O2 switchpoints at 300mV... returning to 450. I think that might help in closed loop operation.

 

I'll be curious to know if/what table lets you enrichen CL operation at low temps.
Why not just get everything the way you want OL and then delay the CL enable temperature until your engine is warmed up. The Open Loop -> EQ Ratio table lets you set the OL AFR at different temperatures.

 

That's a thought too.

Is the table the Closed Loop Enable Coolant Temp vs IAT?

 

Yes, most people set the same Coolant temp regardless of IAT.

 

Okay. Mine was at 150. I upped it to 170. My OL EQ table doesn't go to 1.00 until 176. So this seemed to work when I took it for a short little spin.

I added 2% fuel to the cold areas in the OL EQ table (below 176). Also switched the O2s back to 450mV. Seemed to do a little better.

I managed to kill the car turning the A/C with it warmed to 160 degrees. But at 185 degrees the A/C didn't even pull the motor down. So weird how finicky it is based on ECT. I'm guessing until the engine is good and hot it just isn't going to do well with that big cam.

 

I had to adjust the a/c airflow ramp in on a vette the other day. When you would cut the a/c on the idle would go from 900 to 400 which isnt normal but that fixed it.

 

It's increased to 6lbs... how high can I go?

I know I need to log my STITs and see how far it goes up with the AC on. Then I need to increase the torque in the AC Torque tables. I've seen folks add 10% for every 0.10 g/sec it needs.

 

I ended up with 6.25 on that car. I think the cars compressor was on its way out though, I never seen one bog a motor like it was. Once I had it at 6.25 the rpm changed zero when turning ac off and on.

 

Interesting. My compressor is old as ****. Great lol.