Wideband Sensor Keeps Failing
07-13-2016, 08:38 AM
#1
Wideband Sensor Keeps Failing The car is a 2002 Z28 with an LS6 383 HCIE. I'm having wideband sensors fail increasingly rapidly since my cam swap. The cam was a Lunati Voodoo 222/228 .567/.567 at 113+4 iirc, now I'm on a 230/236 .602/.602 at 111. Since the cam swap, I've failed two, maybe three sensors on Innovate widebands.
The first wideband was an LC-2 and had been installed in the driver's side exhaust after the collector for at least a couple years. Upon start of the new cam, I had trouble getting it to idle, which led to some fueling on the VE table to get it going. Now, pretty sure I'm fat on AFR (contributing to the issue?). So after getting the car going, the wideband read fine for the first couple trips. Then it started to not get past the heat up stage, and when it did, it read solid at 22.4 (max'd out). That used an LSU4.2 sensor.
So I decided now was a nice time to try another wideband, the Innovate MTX-L. That uses an LSU4.9 sensor. I installed that one, it worked for around 200-300 miles and I got a little tuning done to trim the normal driving VE numbers, but I never just sat it to play with the idle. The car definitely needs more attention in the tune, but meanwhile, the sensor died. I got an E8 code, indicating timing off on the heating circuit? Alright, read that's sometimes solved with a heatsink. So I bought a new sensor and a heat sink and installed them.
NEW LSU4.9 sensor, dead within 30 minutes of operation. Pegged out lean, not reading correct at all.
As maybe another interesting data point, I'm getting a code for the Passenger side PCM O2 sensor, started since the cam swap.
So I'm at a loss. What could be causing this? Exhaust leak? Over fueling fouling sensors? Help, I need to tune but I keep failing O2 sensors and it's getting expensive!
The first wideband was an LC-2 and had been installed in the driver's side exhaust after the collector for at least a couple years. Upon start of the new cam, I had trouble getting it to idle, which led to some fueling on the VE table to get it going. Now, pretty sure I'm fat on AFR (contributing to the issue?). So after getting the car going, the wideband read fine for the first couple trips. Then it started to not get past the heat up stage, and when it did, it read solid at 22.4 (max'd out). That used an LSU4.2 sensor.
So I decided now was a nice time to try another wideband, the Innovate MTX-L. That uses an LSU4.9 sensor. I installed that one, it worked for around 200-300 miles and I got a little tuning done to trim the normal driving VE numbers, but I never just sat it to play with the idle. The car definitely needs more attention in the tune, but meanwhile, the sensor died. I got an E8 code, indicating timing off on the heating circuit? Alright, read that's sometimes solved with a heatsink. So I bought a new sensor and a heat sink and installed them.
NEW LSU4.9 sensor, dead within 30 minutes of operation. Pegged out lean, not reading correct at all.
As maybe another interesting data point, I'm getting a code for the Passenger side PCM O2 sensor, started since the cam swap.
So I'm at a loss. What could be causing this? Exhaust leak? Over fueling fouling sensors? Help, I need to tune but I keep failing O2 sensors and it's getting expensive!
07-13-2016, 09:52 AM
#2
On The Tree
Is your sensor mounted according to the instructions?
Sensor must be pointed down to prevent any condensate from reaching it.
Another mounting technique is to use a thicker bung so the sensor does not protrude so far into the flow, but this is more often used on turbo outlets where temps are very high.
" Weld the bung at least 24 inches downstream of the exhaust port outlet (after the collector), or 24 inches after the turbocharger if so equipped. The bung should be welded before the X or H pipe if so equipped.
Using a clock as reference, mount the bung between the 9:00 o’clock and 3:00 o’clock position. Welding the bung in the lower section of the exhaust pipe can result in sensor damage caused by condensation making contact with the sensor’s internal heating element.
A 1” bung (provided in the kit) will best protect the sensor. When fully threaded, the sensor’s tip will sit flush with the exhaust pipe, this does not adversely effect the readings.
The bung should always be welded before the Catalytic Converter. Welding the bung after the catalytic converter will skew the readings toward lean. The skew in readings will vary with engine load and the efficiency of the catalytic converter.
Leaded fuel and two stroke applications will reduce the sensor’s life. There are many other factors that dictate the sensor’s lifespan so it is impossible to predict it’s total longevity.
Exhaust leaks, camshaft overlap, and open (shorty) exhausts will cause false lean readings at light engine loads. Typically, once the engine is under load and the exhaust gas volume increases, you will see accurate readings.
When installed in the exhaust, the oxygen sensor must be connected to a powered, functional MTX-L (no error codes) whenever the engine is running. An un-powered sensor will be damaged in a short period of time when exposed to exhaust gas.
Do not pre-warm the sensor before starting the engine, simply start the engine as normal. Allowing the sensor to pre-warm before starting the engine will increase the possibility of damaging the sensor from shock-cooling.
The maximum temperature of the sensor at the bung (the sensor mounting location) should not exceed 500 oC or 900 oF. If these temperatures are exceeded in your application you should install the Innovate Motorsports HBX-1 heat sink bung extender. (p/n 3729.)"
Sensor must be pointed down to prevent any condensate from reaching it.
Another mounting technique is to use a thicker bung so the sensor does not protrude so far into the flow, but this is more often used on turbo outlets where temps are very high.
" Weld the bung at least 24 inches downstream of the exhaust port outlet (after the collector), or 24 inches after the turbocharger if so equipped. The bung should be welded before the X or H pipe if so equipped.
Using a clock as reference, mount the bung between the 9:00 o’clock and 3:00 o’clock position. Welding the bung in the lower section of the exhaust pipe can result in sensor damage caused by condensation making contact with the sensor’s internal heating element.
A 1” bung (provided in the kit) will best protect the sensor. When fully threaded, the sensor’s tip will sit flush with the exhaust pipe, this does not adversely effect the readings.
The bung should always be welded before the Catalytic Converter. Welding the bung after the catalytic converter will skew the readings toward lean. The skew in readings will vary with engine load and the efficiency of the catalytic converter.
Leaded fuel and two stroke applications will reduce the sensor’s life. There are many other factors that dictate the sensor’s lifespan so it is impossible to predict it’s total longevity.
Exhaust leaks, camshaft overlap, and open (shorty) exhausts will cause false lean readings at light engine loads. Typically, once the engine is under load and the exhaust gas volume increases, you will see accurate readings.
When installed in the exhaust, the oxygen sensor must be connected to a powered, functional MTX-L (no error codes) whenever the engine is running. An un-powered sensor will be damaged in a short period of time when exposed to exhaust gas.
Do not pre-warm the sensor before starting the engine, simply start the engine as normal. Allowing the sensor to pre-warm before starting the engine will increase the possibility of damaging the sensor from shock-cooling.
The maximum temperature of the sensor at the bung (the sensor mounting location) should not exceed 500 oC or 900 oF. If these temperatures are exceeded in your application you should install the Innovate Motorsports HBX-1 heat sink bung extender. (p/n 3729.)"
07-13-2016, 12:03 PM
#3
Is your sensor mounted according to the instructions?
Sensor must be pointed down to prevent any condensate from reaching it.
Another mounting technique is to use a thicker bung so the sensor does not protrude so far into the flow, but this is more often used on turbo outlets where temps are very high.
Sensor must be pointed down to prevent any condensate from reaching it.
Another mounting technique is to use a thicker bung so the sensor does not protrude so far into the flow, but this is more often used on turbo outlets where temps are very high.
But you got me thinking... the sensor is currently on a bend after the collector toward the X-pipe. I wonder if the sensor is being shocked by air that prefers to go straight (into the bung) rather than make the turn to the X-pipe.
Any other ideas? I'm barely driving my car because it's untuned and I can't tune because of this issue!
07-13-2016, 02:17 PM
#4
I think the sensor is not reaching the minimum operating temperature so it's dying.
A cold sensor will die very quickly, period.
Yours is a cammed car, not a turbo car so heat is not that high. Exhaust gas will be very cold at idle, even colder if it's rich.
Remove the heatsink, install the sensor as close to the engine as possible and use wrap to keep the exhaust hot enough.
A cold sensor will die very quickly, period.
Yours is a cammed car, not a turbo car so heat is not that high. Exhaust gas will be very cold at idle, even colder if it's rich.
Remove the heatsink, install the sensor as close to the engine as possible and use wrap to keep the exhaust hot enough.
07-14-2016, 11:57 AM
#7
9 Second Club
They do of course claim this is better, faster and more accurate than anyone else. None of that really matters when the system doesnt work though.
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07-14-2016, 03:05 PM
#8
Interesting feedback, thank you, gentlemen. Here's some more data, I just recently swapped the headers from TSP 1 7/8" stainless to Speed Engineering 1 7/8" stainless but wrapped... this was in an attempt to get some heat out of the engine bay, and it definitely did do that. The swap was after the first sensor on the MTX-L failed and installation of the second LSU4.9.
Monte, it just so happens I have three more bungs and several plugs at the house. I may try to move the sensor up a little closer to the collector.
So, why am I stuck on Innovate? Well, I have an Innovate LC-2 on my LS1 Hombre and it's been working great since installation last fall. It's my daily driver and has seen 5500 miles since the swap with no issues. I'm inclined to believe the wiring could be at fault on the Camaro as I have the power from a relay triggered from the radio. Not that I'm defending Innovate, I'd definitely swap to another if it would save me on sensors. But if wiring is my issue, another wideband won't save me.
Maybe this weekend I'll rip into it on the wiring side to see if I can find a smoking gun.
But something I haven't seen so far is a mention of damage possibly from the extra fuel and an exhaust leak. Could this combo cause a sensor failure? I mean, I don't think I have an exhaust leak, but could it combine with bad fueling to cause rapid wideband sensor failure?
Monte, it just so happens I have three more bungs and several plugs at the house. I may try to move the sensor up a little closer to the collector.
So, why am I stuck on Innovate? Well, I have an Innovate LC-2 on my LS1 Hombre and it's been working great since installation last fall. It's my daily driver and has seen 5500 miles since the swap with no issues. I'm inclined to believe the wiring could be at fault on the Camaro as I have the power from a relay triggered from the radio. Not that I'm defending Innovate, I'd definitely swap to another if it would save me on sensors. But if wiring is my issue, another wideband won't save me.
Maybe this weekend I'll rip into it on the wiring side to see if I can find a smoking gun.
But something I haven't seen so far is a mention of damage possibly from the extra fuel and an exhaust leak. Could this combo cause a sensor failure? I mean, I don't think I have an exhaust leak, but could it combine with bad fueling to cause rapid wideband sensor failure?
07-14-2016, 04:15 PM
#10
Been using innovate WB for years without problems. I have 3 myself and one of them has like 7 years, still going good.
I have installed a lot on customers cars and not a single one has failed.
Unless you are running the sensor unpowered or cold, installing it wrong or exposing it to leaded fuel/oil, it shouldn't fail for a long time.
Did you also change the cable from sensor to controller?
I once damaged one by closing the window and pinching it repeatedly (temporary tuning install). It started giving sensor errors, bought a new sensor and problem remained. Bought a new cable and problem was fixed. The old sensor was ok.
Now I change the cable every 2 years of use
I have installed a lot on customers cars and not a single one has failed.
Unless you are running the sensor unpowered or cold, installing it wrong or exposing it to leaded fuel/oil, it shouldn't fail for a long time.
Did you also change the cable from sensor to controller?
I once damaged one by closing the window and pinching it repeatedly (temporary tuning install). It started giving sensor errors, bought a new sensor and problem remained. Bought a new cable and problem was fixed. The old sensor was ok.
Now I change the cable every 2 years of use
