HP Tuner question
 

How effective is HP Tuner in tuning an LS1 without a wideband? I have a tuner close to where I live but he doesn't have a dyno and I haven't installed a bung for a wideband on my exhaust yet.

Thoughts and suggestions?

not at all.

you can tune idle and cruise off narrow band factory o2 sensors. but that's not the correct method. their data can be off by a mile and influenced by way to many factors to make them reliable. as for WOT a wide band is the only thing you can tune off. the narrow band mV aren't accurate enough nor do they have enough resolution to determine and accurate AFR from.

you can remove the factory o2 sensors and turn them off in the tune. install your wide band in one bank and calibrate your airflow tables from that, swap it to the other bank and compare the data and make sure its the same.

Opinion from the peanut gallery here,, but,,

I'd add that if your "tuner" didn't suggest this,, RUN.
No tuner worth the money will be without a wideband and access to a dyno somewhere..
Wideband is not that much money for someone who is tuning for a living.

I will say, one of the "best tuners in the country" not just something I am saying, but is very well re-nouned tuner, does not have a dyno and street tunes around here. He prefers NOT to tune on the dyno, because its just "Not the real world". He is very supportive if your more than just a base customer, and will meet you out at the track and work on the tune all night. Ive seen it done a lot.

But yes, you do not need a specific bung in your exhaust to have him use a wideband.

I tune for money. I wouldnt be caught dead without a couple known, good quality widebands. I rent dyno time at $100/hr my cost. A loaded dyno is about as real world as you can get for dialing in spark in the off idle, cruise and transition areas. You can load the car in ways you just won't hit on the street very often and make very accurate and smooth spark & fuel tables. I can do in an hour on the dyno what would take me 4-5 hours of street tuning...without any risk of losing a life or a license. Plus if there's a problem (there always is!) you have tools right there and can fix it and get back in business.

You still gotta pull plugs for WOT rips. aint no way around that.


but for the average joe who just wants a fun cheap ripper, china 7875, JY 5.3 decaps and a single 450

sure I street tune those. shit, you can almost phone those in haha.

still use a WB on 'em tho

cant beat a good dyno for WOT data and calibrating PERIOD.

consistent load at a controlled acceleration rate that is repeatable is what you want. you wont get that anywhere else.
especially for boosted combos that make decent grunt.

for cruise etc I'm all for data logging and calibrating on the road.

Most people who don't own a dyno say that.

You make a good point. However, it seems that most of the "tuners" I have ran across do WOT pulls on unloaded dynojets, which is about as far away from real world tuning as you can get. This may be why so many people prefer street tuning. A proper load bearing dyno with climate control will always be superior, but good luck with access to that.

I am lucky and we have a load bearing Mustang Dyno.

There is no fucking way, all that cars that I tune, that I would take all of them out and do WOT blasts on the street to tune it. That's fucking stupid. It's a huge personal risk, risk to the shop and my customers vehicle.

And as a customer, I wouldn't want someone taking my car that I have spent thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars on, to go make WOT blasts on the street. I've only had to tune 2 cars on the street because they were AWD and I didn't like it at all.

From a tuning standpoint, a loaded dyno is superior.

From a common sense standpoint...any dyno makes sense.

For really high HP cars, yes, IMO you are going to have to finish tuning them at the track. I tuned our shop car on the dyno. Took it off, went to BG and ran mid 8's then went straight drag week and placed 2nd in our class.

Did some more track tuning, went high 7's.........then we lifted the heads...

There are a lot of reasons why a dyno is better. One being I would not like someone driving my car WOT, trying to watch the road and the Lambda gauge at the same time.

Just my .02

You make good points all around. My neighbor has an MD250 that we normally used for tuning, but then when we turboed his Escalade the AWD made that impossible. Street tuning that flying brick led to a few "interesting" moments. When we Procharged his 67 Camaro to almost 30lbs of boost on a purpose built race motor the wheelspin on the rollers made that style of dyno useless. We had to rough it in on someone else's single roller dynojet before track tuning it.

I never knew this. Which bank though? Bank two?

Either bank is fine. I like the drivers bank best. The narrow bands are turned off when i tune so what does it matter that it is removed to install the wideband. I have tuned every which way and on the dyno is the best barring tire spin. Street tuning is straight dangerous with anything with alot of power. Track tuning is cool but i can get more runs in an hour on the dyno then two days at the track where i live.

A few points:

1) If you're doing your own tuning, you can tune up to 4000 RPM using shortterm/longterm fuel trims.

2) Wide band is superior every where, from 0 to WOT.

3) A street tuner doesn't have his eyes glazed at the AFR gauge - maybe a glimpse. The whole point of data logging is so that you can pay attention to the road while you hit the necessary cells. I'm not saying street tuning is better, because the risks are still far greater. I'm just saying, I've safely tuned my car for WOT on the streets. You use common sense. Maybe I'm just lucky. But there is a very long stretch of empty road at my disposal. I understand not everyone has access to this. Still, I agree with LilJay that doing all of this is just far safer and easier on a dyno.

4) No matter what, no matter who you are, you're not going to be able to tune for MBT on the streets. The only thing that can get you close is using knock sensors + Wideband, and A LOT of time on the road.... hence, the mention above about risks vs tuning on a dyno.

5) NO ONE (I don't care who the tuner is) is going to care about your vehicle like you do. With all the time it takes to dial in the VE, then dial in the MAF (if you're going to use one) then dial in the WoT... there is a lot of time that goes in to it. You can get lucky with a good tuner... but I would say, buy an HPTuner anyway, to learn and verify the tune that was done by a pro. If your tuner claims he can tune your newly built vehicle in an hour, RUN. And don't. Look. Back.

If you're dead set on tuning WOT (or anything else for that matter) buy a wideband.

With a wideband, you will be tuning in openloop as others have mentioned. Open loop = your o2 sensors are offline. Use your stock O2 locations, or o2 locations on your long tube headers. Once you have the driver side bank dialed in accurately, you start over with the passenger side - but just for the sake of monitoring to make sure results are nearly identical. If they're not, it's time to look at your injectors and other ignition system areas.

You use Bank 1 sensor 1
You use Bank 2 sensor 1

Bank 1 = driver side
Bank 2 = pass side

Sensor 1 = before cats
sensor 2 = after cats

Sensor 2 is post-cat. You don't want to use this.

I can tell you right now that if I was to go out and pay $500 or more for a tune, that tuner better know his sh**. Because you better believe I will be looking at the tune to see what all has actually been addressed, and what has been neglected. But I respect the pros. I believe they know best, but sometimes, they slip - and with your $15k+ investment in the engine bay alone, it would be nice to catch that slip before damage is done.

Long story short, I trust people on this board more than I trust a self-proclaimed "pro tuner" with a dyno.

I've been doing strictly street tuning with the help of a remote tuner looking at my logs etc..

It takes forever and in the city where I live I have to risk making high pulls in public areas. I don't live in the country.

A few days of street tuning can be done in an hour on a dyno and is safer. To each their own