A little background first. Since new my '98 has been a bit weird *L* - it runs lean (even 100% stock, most of 'em run rich) and has been a victim of on again/off again KR of less than 4 degrees. When that KR does set in, it does so without rhyme or reason and goes away the same way. I'm pretty certain it's false knock because even running 100 octane fuel has no effect on it. Anyway, thought I had it licked for good last year when I got a MAFT - worked at tuning that in and with the few mods I had done then, the car was noticeably stronger - and proved so at the track with an increase in trap speeds of 106-107 to traps of almost 109. I was then getting 0 KR and timing up to 30.5 degrees at WOT.

Fast forward to this summer and a track visit a short while ago and voila KR is back and I'm again running ~106 traps and getting as low as 17 degrees advance at WOT!!! Exact same mods, no changes and still using MAFT. Ltrims and O2 dialed in, althought the 02's wander a bit from mid .8xx's to low .9xx's, but it's always done that too, no change. So even though the car isn't pinging, the KR of 4 degrees and less (yes tried 100 octane again - KR still there) is killing timing and performance.

Now I have a set of FLP's and a Hotcam going in soon and I picked up a used HPP3 to raise the rev limiter and fix the fans (new thermo going in too), and eventually for gears too. Now after all the reading I've done about the tuning aspect of HPP3 being pretty well useless, I had no intention of using it. But it was a slow day today and I got to thinking (yea that hurts *L*) and though what the hell, lets throw in the HPP3 non-rfg tuning and see if it can win me back some timing advance, even with KR being present. Programmed the car and drove around to give it learn time (if it even needed it I dunno) and then went ATapping - no other changes to the car or MAFT settings, just programmed and go.

WELL!!! Timing is up across the board, even with KR still present on/off and the car felt a LOT stronger!! Yea I know what seat of the pants means, but I got ATap to back up the timing advance numbers anyway. No pinging and when KR is present it's still less than 4 degrees, and I'm seeing 30.5 degrees advance again in some instances! There are still some peaks and valleys to the timing number, but on average they are definitely much improved. Check out the ATap runs....first set about a month ago when I noticed KR was back. Next set from a run today. Still got KR, but timing is much improved.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">RPM TimAdv Throttle B1S1 B2S1 KR
2282 26.5 100 0.89 0.895 0
3312 28.5 100 0.86 0.885 1.8
4519 18.5 100 0.905 0.915 2.6
5489 22.5 100 0.905 0.935 0
4036 19.5 100 0.905 0.905 3.6
4562 17.5 100 0.905 0.91 3.2
5132 20 100 0.905 0.915 2.9
4300 21 100 0.9 0.91 0.7
4560 20.5 100 0.895 0.91 0.5
4824 20 100 0.895 0.905 0.4
5050 21.5 100 0.89 0.905 0.3
5246 23 100 0.895 0.905 0.1
5446 24 100 0.895 0.9 0
4338 18 100 0.88 0.905 3.9
4434 18 100 0.88 0.9 3.4
4557 17.5 100 0.88 0.89 3
4694 17.5 100 0.87 0.89 2.7
4800 17.5 100 0.87 0.89 2.4
4899 18.5 100 0.87 0.89 2
5010 19.5 100 0.87 0.88 1.8
5099 20.5 100 0.87 0.89 1.5
5200 21 100 0.87 0.875 1.3
3847 22 100 0.84 0.85 1.8
3852 22 100 0.83 0.84 1.5
3900 21.5 100 0.835 0.845 1.3
3939 21 100 0.845 0.85 1.1
3982 21 100 0.845 0.855 1.1
2740 25 100 0.855 0.86 0
2818 25 100 0.86 0.855 0
2905 26 100 0.86 0.865 0
2954 26 100 0.85 0.86 0
3017 26.5 100 0.85 0.865 0
3091 26.5 100 0.845 0.86 0
3156 27 100 0.85 0.845 0
3234 27 100 0.845 0.85 0
3300 27 100 0.84 0.85 0
2329 21 100 0.86 0.87 2.9
2380 21.5 100 0.86 0.875 2.5
2427 22 100 0.855 0.87 2.2
2505 22.5 100 0.865 0.87 1.9
2588 22.5 100 0.865 0.87 1.6
2658 23.5 100 0.86 0.865 1.3
2805 24 100 0.875 0.87 0
2990 26 100 0.86 0.87 0
3184 26.5 100 0.87 0.87 0
3361 26.5 100 0.865 0.865 0
3540 26 100 0.865 0.87 0
3724 24.5 100 0.87 0.87 0
3503 24 100 0.87 0.885 1.2
4698 18 100 0.905 0.92 0
3149 27 100 0.855 0.86 0
3409 26.5 100 0.84 0.865 0
3687 25 100 0.855 0.87 0
3982 21.5 100 0.87 0.88 0.7
4268 20 100 0.875 0.895 0.8
3146 24 100 0.835 0.86 2.5
3280 24 100 0.835 0.855 2.2
3399 24 100 0.84 0.855 1.8
3520 24 100 0.835 0.845 1.5
1748 17.5 100 0.855 0.87 0
1873 20 100 0.86 0.87 0
2032 22 100 0.865 0.87 0</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And from today...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">RPM TimAdv Throttle B1S1 B2S1 KR
2497 31 100 0.88 0.905 0
3508 29.5 100 0.87 0.895 0.6
4651 26.5 100 0.905 0.905 0.5
5590 27.5 100 0.915 0.92 0.4
5304 27 100 0.9 0.91 0
5774 28 100 0.915 0.93 0
4736 24 100 0.905 0.92 2.8
4600 24.5 100 0.905 0.93 2.5
4848 24.5 100 0.905 0.93 2.2
5096 24.5 100 0.91 0.925 1.8
5312 25.5 100 0.905 0.92 1.6
5500 26 100 0.91 0.93 1.4
5716 26.5 100 0.905 0.92 1.2
4496 24 100 0.9 0.915 3.3
4634 24 100 0.9 0.92 3
4736 24 100 0.89 0.91 2.7
4848 24 100 0.89 0.905 2.4
4970 24.5 100 0.9 0.905 2
5100 25 100 0.895 0.91 1.7
5197 25 100 0.895 0.905 1.5
5276 25.5 100 0.89 0.91 1.3
5370 26 100 0.895 0.905 1.1
5458 26.5 100 0.895 0.905 1.1
5537 26.5 100 0.885 0.91 0.9
4076 25.5 100 0.87 0.89 2
4030 28 100 0.875 0.89 0
4062 28 100 0.875 0.885 0
4136 27 100 0.875 0.895 0.5
4202 26 100 0.875 0.895 1.8
4222 26 100 0.89 0.895 1.6
4264 26.5 100 0.89 0.9 1.4
4305 26.5 100 0.885 0.9 1.2
4358 26.5 100 0.88 0.905 1.1
4400 26.5 100 0.88 0.89 1.1
2894 30.5 100 0.86 0.875 0
3402 30 100 0.855 0.875 0
3912 28 100 0.88 0.9 0
4462 27.5 100 0.885 0.9 0
2908 30.5 100 0.87 0.885 0
4017 28 100 0.89 0.915 0.5
5169 26.5 100 0.895 0.905 0.4
4005 26.5 100 0.89 0.91 1
5027 26 100 0.89 0.905 0
4733 26 100 0.885 0.9 0.8
4016 28 100 0.88 0.905 0
4600 27 100 0.885 0.895 0
5154 27 100 0.905 0.925 0
4237 28 100 0.9 0.915 0
4824 26.5 100 0.905 0.925 0.2
5323 27 100 0.905 0.925 0
5762 28 100 0.905 0.7 0
3354 30 100 0.87 0.88 0
3492 30 100 0.87 0.88 0
3626 29.5 100 0.865 0.88 0.4
3775 28.5 100 0.865 0.87 0.7
3916 27.5 100 0.87 0.88 0.8
4055 27 100 0.88 0.9 0.6
4202 27 100 0.895 0.905 0.4
4328 27.5 100 0.895 0.91 0.3
2909 30.5 100 0.865 0.88 0
3058 30.5 100 0.87 0.885 0
3197 30.5 100 0.87 0.88 0
3354 30 100 0.87 0.88 0
3492 30 100 0.87 0.88 0
3626 29.5 100 0.865 0.88 0.4
3775 28.5 100 0.865 0.87 0.7
3916 27.5 100 0.87 0.88 0.8
4055 27 100 0.88 0.9 0.6
4202 27 100 0.895 0.905 0.4
4328 27.5 100 0.895 0.91 0.3
2656 30.5 100 0.86 0.875 0
2720 30.5 100 0.87 0.875 0
2792 30.5 100 0.865 0.875 0
2858 30.5 100 0.86 0.87 0
2932 30.5 100 0.865 0.88 0
3004 30.5 100 0.865 0.875 0
3068 30.5 100 0.865 0.88 0
3150 30.5 100 0.86 0.88 0
3219 30 100 0.865 0.88 0
3288 30 100 0.865 0.875 0</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So it seems to me if you have a car, weird one or not *L*, that has some low timing "issues" then HPP3 could "may" help you, whereas it wouldn't do much for a car already running good - timing wise. Thoughts?

<small>[ September 05, 2002, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: BillWS6Formula ]</small>

 

That's fascinating stuff, BillWS6Formula! I really like my HPP3 with my auto. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
<img src="http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0LQAHAHoP71155!VP92sy3ufko6hFzitZY4AlAXZhM6latYQ*I rJOTlPYWkPn0AuBW66TGSs2gp4/slips.jpg" alt=" - " />
My best run was at 11:34 am. Corrected to sea level (Bud Park elevation is 2,400'): E.T. = 13.154" MPH = 106.78 mph . . . would not have happened without the HPP3 . . . it's a no brainer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> Forgot my sig

<small>[ September 05, 2002, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: Bill ]</small>

 

Hey Bill...well again from all I've read, automatic LS1's do generally seem to benefit from the HPP3. It's feed back from those with 6-speeds that has indicated it does little to improve performance there. But then again, I guess most of those owner don't have the low timing probs with KR that I have.

Nice times! Snowing out there yet? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" />

 

You sure are right about the snow, BillWS6Formula! It's raining today and is cold . . . snow is just around the corner . . . and time for winter tires. No wonder our US Buds say that Canada has 2 seasons - July/August and winter.

I really like your MPHs . . . my understanding is, that they reflect horsepower, better than a dyno.

Have to admire the 6 speed crowd . . . an auto really simplifies things! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" /> I got the automatic because I'm an old timer . . . haven't been on a strip in 20 odd years . . . this Monday was my first time since then . . . forgot how much fun it is. God, are our LS1s ever powerful! Had no idea that traction was going to be such a problem . . . time for ET Streets, I guess. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Good luck with those low timing probs with KR! Hopefully . . .

 

I have a 98 A4 and took off the HPP3 tuning because of low timing. My before and after are reverse of yours; higher timing (28 degrees average at WOT) on stock tuning, lower on HPP3.
No KR either way. One thing it did seem to do was "flatten" out the timing across the rpm range compared to the "peaky" stock tuning.

 

"9 months of winter and 3 months of poor skiing! "

Bill look on the bright side.....at least there are no snakes in Newfoundland! <img border="0" alt="[jester]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_jest.gif" />

 

My experience was a loss in timing on the upper end of the S-curve, with close to 4* of KR in the FL early summer heat. The car "felt" stronger on the bottom end, FWIW, and ran leaner all across the board. My engine has always logged .87x - .89x w/o HPP3 tuning, however.

 

BLKTA, your results demonstrates what I'm thinking may be the case with HPP3 - on a car with "normal" timing, it doesn't really seem to help - but on a bass-ackwards one like mine that goes against the "norm" in so many ways *L*, it does seem to actually help - both seat of the pants for what that's worth, and more tellingly by the ATAP results.

gwj, maybe the heat with the extra timing advance would cause the PCM to negate whatever dubious benefits the programming gives? I dunno...I've done so much reading these past few years, I'm just amazed at how differently and individual these cars are. It seems no two are really alike in how they respond to mods *L*. I'm just glad that, for me, the HPP3 tuning has given me back some lost timing advance <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> .

StevieZ, snakes? Just the two-legged kind left down here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" />

 

9 months of winter and 3 months of poor skiing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" />

No dyno's in my area, so all I have to go by are trap speeds which are a fair indicator of power. Can't go by me ET's for sure...they're ALL over the place LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Traction? Nitto DR's are a great all-round tire! I've got two years out of my current set and will be putting on new ones in a week or so.

Congrats on getting back to the track! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

 

I have had mixed results trying the hpp tuning..usually the car initially seems way faster and then after couple of days the knock retard comes back and it isn't false knock..I get almost no false knock.Then I usually dial up my maft a notch or two richer and that keeps the knock demons away of course temps and humidty change things from one day and night to the next.I live in Saskatchewan..also Canadian like Bill and we have even great extremes..it can be like close to 32 f and then next day it might be 75 right now..the hpp does two things..leans out the mixture and bumps the timing..on rfg I think it doesn't lean out the mixture.I might give mine a try the other day..saw like 27 degrees max with zero knock but thirty sounds better and since I am pig rich and have my maft knocked down 5 clicks on wot since my longtubes I might be able to just have it down a couple of clicks if I run the hpp tuning..and the extra timing would be nice.give it a try I think.

 

MY99TAWS6, the guess the big difference for us is I'm getting false knock whereas you're not. I can see that having a different effect, especially if you're going over 4* KR, or getting KR because of running lean - which seems to be the case if dialing up your MAFT gets rid of it. That doesn't happen for me now, even if I dial it up enough to make the car pig rich.

So today, I put the car back to stock and did two more sets of runs - with HPP3 tuning, and without HPP3 tuning. No Whisper MAF, no MAFT, all stock induction. End result was the same - the HPP3 tuning is giving me an average of 4 degrees more timing or so across the board averaging mid/high 20's and up to 30.5 in some instances. Stock tuning I'm seeing timing advance as low as 17 again and averaging low/mid 20's.

The car does run a bit leaner too though with the HPP3 tuning, but without affecting the random KR of less than 4*.

So even with the ported MAF and MAFT completely out of the equation, the tuning still seems to benefit my '98.

 

Why don't you get Tonys knock out box..since its pretty obvious it must be false knock if it knocks at 100 octane..???? I just put in my hpp non rfg to try ,with my headers can't see being lean and have the maft to richen if necessary.I was anxious to go for a little cruise but its pouring out here constantly today..looked like it was drying up and then another heavy shower..sucks..I feel the need for speed..maybe should just go drive it in the rain anyway.my
firehawks have good traction..just hate the dirty film you get on the car from rain driving...and won't be able to really put it thu its paces..I don't have traction control..at least its not snowing !! LOL

 

Never heard of "Tony's Knock Out Box"?! Wot's dat?!

You're right, at least it's not snowing! <img border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" title="" src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" />

 

You guys are way over my head . . . and I've been an IT Techie since '89.

Keep the info coming! We are brothers, at heart, and have the same priorities. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

 

*L*...I'm hardly an "expert" Bill <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" /> ...if I was, I'd be able to cure this damn KR I'm getting! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

 

Bill this is nineball tony's site...!!
He makes the knock out box..also if its false knock should be pretty easy to figure out..think I get some from my cutout when its wide open and most guys pick some up from exhaust banging and vibrating against stuff ..just get the car at midas on a good drive on hoist and check everything that might be a problem..I usually get zero knock on runs with my mods..so the b1 doesn't cause knock or the 918 valve springs or headers and all that if its installed right..
not sure if no cats could cause some knock..don't see why that would matter.My asp pulley doesn't cause knock..Might get very slight knock once in awhile I think on shifts...but this knockout box might be worth trying..its cheap enough.I have a scanmaster and autotap so I can always monitor my car every run and all the time continously..it really helps me see if I need to tweak up the translator in hot weather or what..autotap works ok but its a pain dragging a laptop around when you are by yourself.need a laptop holder thing in the car..maybe when I get ls1 edit or something similar..still couldn't try out the hpp non rfg..still raining all day too much..tommorrow morning with any luck..I did see max of 27 I think doing some testing ..which isn't too bad.I usually notice a good boost when the hpp is first installed but it seems to not be so good after awhile..of course if car gets too lean on hot days there goes all your power..just like if its too rich it gets super doggy in the heat I found also..darn this tuning stuff..anyway..

 

yep, done the whole exhaust exam thing - I've been chasing this on/off KR for over two years now - there's nothing on the car that capable of mechanical movement that hasn't been checked. I did a search and that knock out box looks like a neat idea. I'll put that on my list next if swapping out the rear KS doesn't cure things, thanks for the tip!

And it's still not snowing! *L*

<small>[ September 08, 2002, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: BillWS6Formula ]</small>