IAT response time isnt the issue really, at wot it responds pretty quick. Its the cold/hot start open loop leaning out and when all the piped get heat soaked they stay hot for a while.

Trust me, I'm not sitting here telling anyone what they should or shouldnt do. My method works for me and thats all I'm concerned about. I could sit here and make fun of people for spending months on a tune and their car still runs like shit but I wont, its your car do what you will. What I'm doing works just fine for what I'm doing. Would I do this on a turbo car with a boost controller? nope. Would I do it for someone else and turn them loose with a 1000hp street car that drives from 50 to 5000' elevation? nope. I am not selling anything or endorsing anyones product either, just making a simple statement that it works for me and all of a sudden I'm too stupid to add :D

Its a good thing you guys never had to deal with big carbs lol, you would have had a stroke by now with all that gas just dumping in there like a garden hose with nothing but four drilled holes doing most the metering ;)

kp, i wasn't bashing at you personally, in the past month like 5 different guys with supercharged setups approached with about their stuff not running right, and they all repeated the same thing "i dont need 2bar setups, i dont need bigger injectors, MAF is fine, PE vs RPM is the way to tune" etc... i just get tired of repeating the same thing over and over, and then bunch of others just says it's no big deal.

i try to use math to demonstrate that this isn't just my opinion, all this stuff stems directly from simple physics. on this board hype and popular opinion matters more than laws of nature--and that's what pisses me off.

I had a similar uphill battle with injectors, and finally convinced enough people why and what they need to run smooth and safe. FI tuning is the same case, just bigger and harder to explain, by the very nature of FI.

:hail: yeahh..... I have dealt with big carbs... actually have 2 holleys on a megablower sitting in my street rod. Notice how many carbe'd cars are being produced in 2006. Need I say more??? The technology is old, concept is the same. As far as the attacks go, you are the only one calling anybody stupid. Maybe just maybe you should acknowledge someone else's point, you dont have to agree but thats what this board is for.

The math is obvious, I have a BS in computer science back from when it was a real science major so it was 90% math, I can add pretty well if I need to ;)

I wont necessarily discourage people from trying it though, it all depends what they are doing with the car. It seems to be a touchy subject for no reason really, if you know what you are doing it works, but pretty much if you know what you are doing you can make anything work. I look at results and consistancy and the least amount of time spent to acheive a goal, simple as that. I'd also be willing to bet that the BS3 laying on the floor wont make the car run one bit quicker - except for getting rid of ~50lbs of stock wiring anyhow ;)

I never called anyone stupid, maybe reread who called who stupid first ;)

I never said anyone else's method WONT work, if I did point that out. All I said is what I do works for me, simple as that. There is more then one way to tune these things that work, just because I dont subscribe to your method doesnt make yours wrong and vice versa. I think you should read my replies a little more carefully though, never once did I say it was stupid to do something the right way.

As far as carbed cars I have dealt with them for over 25 years and still do, simple but effective - just like a PE tune ;)

Doesnt get much easier than that... :)

Something else that is simple yet effective is cheating. Hmm... what does all of this have in common?

Honestly I dont care if you want to guess at your PE table and go strictly of AFR. Thats your deal, I just think this "guessing" mindset is accepted to easily, a little more work and its done right. I hope Professional tuners dont take the same stand that you do.

Clueless doesnt necessarily = stupid. If he has blown up a car similar to mine using my method then I'm all ears. I suppose what I was replying to was just fine your book and you wouldnt have said anything.

I can honestly care less what professional tuners do to be blunt, this is a do it yourself site (or at least it used to be anyhow) and that has no bearing on anything in this thread. If a 'pro' tuner uses my methods for doing anything then they are most likely in trouble - no argument there.

Cheating?, thats fine if thats what you want to call it. I can guess with the best of them too I'll admit, right down to .01 or so in the 1/4 mile ;)

allright i did not mean to start a fight, but i do appreciate all of the info. i am using a 1 bar sd tune right now, so my multiplyer is not high for my setup. allthough it is not the best way to go about things, will it work is the question i have. i am in the process of getting a 2 bar setup, i just wanted to find a way to drive my car until then if i can.

sorry about all that, yes it will work :)

Keep an eye on fuel pressre, inj DC and have a wideband to look at.

i have wideband, but what is inj dc? is it injector duty cycle? if so can i use autotap to read it?

I dont remember if autotap will read injector duty cycle directly, you may have to log the pusewidth in ms and do the old pulsewidth*RPM/1200 formula to check the duty cycle. Just want to make sure you arent maxing the injectors out from being too small or dropping fuel pressure.

Yes I Believe You Are Correct About It Being The Injectors Or Fuel Pressure. I Will Try To Check The Injectors Tonight And Get Back With You.

By The Way What Size Injectors Did You Say You Had. I Have A D1 Procharger Running 12 Lbs. What Size Injectors Would You Say I Need?

12psi on a 383 with big heads, fairly large cam and big exhaust is quite a bit, I only run 13psi or so with a 346 and I was almost out (95-100% DC) with 57lb injectors and 65psi of fuel pressure. If you have a great fuel system where you can sustain 65-70psi of fuel pressure at max hp then 60lb should get you by. I recently switched to hi impedence 75lb injectors though so I could run lower fuel pressure and less duty cycle. That requires an injector driver box though, 300.00 and a lot of wire soldering..

kp, you mean low-impedance 75?

383, 7000rpm, 12psi would need consume about 60-62lb/hr of fuel at 100% duty cycle, so you'd want 75-80lb/hr injectors for a nice safe operation

Yes I mean low impedance 75s.

You can up the fuel pressure to make 60s work just fine if you have enough pump and line. Some injectors work better at high duty cycle/pressures then others though. Problem with upping the pressure is as pressure goes up volume goes down with most pumps. Lot of guys boost reference their regulator and set their base pressure at 60psi but dont realize their fuel system wont handle 72psi @ 65lb/hr at .6 BSFC and the car leans out up top.

I'm more stupid than kp since I use a boost controller, twin turbo, maf that maxes at 3400rpm, 16psi and rpm vs pe. Works great "for me"....I also wouldn't rec anyone else do it, reach through the window and start the car, idles like stock, no stumbles or ses lights, 700rwhp, 10.1 at 138mph at 3750lbs...bah....others like kp are much faster.

Mototrons are my friend...60lb at 43psi, 70lb at 58psi, 85lb at 87psi....better bring a pump(s) to the party though...

I even tune with altering fuel pressure at the track for DA changes (gasp!)...easier turning a screw (loved my quadrajet) to drop psi than reloading an EFI Live file. :)

BTW, stupid is using EQ Ratio instead of Lambda in PE :jest: :drive:

Just curious how is using EQ ratio stupid in PE instead of Lambda?

The PCM uses the EQ ratio, regardless of what your tuning software displays it as....

Ryan

I'm just kidding Kevin.

Seems like I'm the only one using lambda...it's easier for me since my wideband reads lambda and you know 1.0 = 14.67 Less than 1.0 is richer, greater than 1.0 is leaner...pretty intuitive way to tune, but not popular.