Knight

My name is Knight and I was referred to this board as a place for expert information, advice, and guidence. I am new to "board's" and I know nothing about high performance cars or the correct techniques to drive them at extreme speed. I need to find people who are experts, are impartial with sharing their knowledge, will be absolutely honest, and most importantly do not have any ulterior motives or agendas. If you are posting just to fulfill your ego, then please do not contact me or pursue this post.

WHAT YOU TELL ME CAN GET ME KILLED!! This is not being melodramatic.

I trust the people who recommeded this board and that is the only thing that convinced me to even make this post. More than a few have said that this is a fool's folly because I have no idea who is on the other side of a name icon. If you are true and you are an expert, then please read on and let me know if you can help. Because right now I am completely alone and I admit it. I AM IN WAY OVER MY HEAD.

History:

I completed the 2005 Silver State Classic Challenge. This is the fastest open road race in the world. They close down a public highway and you can go as fast as you want. This is a normal highway until they close it for the event. That means any kind of hazard from pot holes to problems with cars or trucks that have just passed over it before me. Some of these people go over 200 miles per hour. I want to keep moving up the speed class until I find my limit. I have no idea what that will be. Go to www.sscc.us for more information on the event and the course. I want to take the challenge next year in a higher class. This requires a more powerful car. I take that back. I don't know if it is more power, torque, gearing, induction, or whatever. It must be able to go up 1 to 1.5 mile long hills at a 50 degree angle in 110 degree heat while maintainning extremely high speeds without breaking. This course in 90 miles long but other events are over 2,500 miles long. That is why it is called the "Challenge." Anything can and probably will happen. I admit up front that I have NO automotive engineering skills. I am starting at the very beginning. The only thing that I know about cars is that when they break, they are very expensive to fix.

I need help in the following areas:

1) Identifying and selecting the correct car. It must be durable enough to drive accross the country compete in this event, and then drive back home. It must be street legal. It must run on regular gas. Octane levels will be between 87 and 91. Some of the members have recommended the Camaro or the Firebird. Others favor the Corvette. I don't know anything about these cars. I am self financed so cost is a major consideration.

2) Creating a plan as to exactly what has to be done to the car in order to get it ready to not only survive these challenges, but to win. I mean absolutely everything from engine to exhaust, from gauges to navigation aids like gps etc. This will be a real car that is driven daily and taken to these events. This will not be a trailer queen, dyno trophy, or prototype show car.

3) Identifying what kind of programs, schools, clubs, or events will give me the most beneficial training for this type of event. NASA, SCCA, Automobile clubs, Private schools? Rally? Road Racing? Time Trials? Whatever else is available. I don't even know what is out there.

4) What kind or facilities are available and where are they located?


Thank you for your time and patience. I appreciate any help that can be given.

Knight

DragonsPhyre

A newer model Firebird WS6 that was heavily prepped before setting out would be a good choice. I have Driven mine from central Texas through New Mexico, Arizona, and on to Las Vegas and then from there to South Carolina and back to central Texas. The only thing I had an issue with was my alternator died and had to replace it in Oklahoma. I have sustained over 100 MPH at low RPMs for hours at a time at 2 AM.. through New Mexico and Arizona.. there are some long grades in that route, but in 5th or 6th gear it won't hurt or challenge the engine whatsoever. The 200 MPH zone to sustain for long periods if you can get it there.. Tires are going to be a big issue at that speed. A pothole or cut in the highway will drag over most stock tires and you will fight the wheel. I don't claim to be an expert, but my 2 cents.

Juiced

iTrader: (2)

You should stop while your still alive.

If you really want to to this then i would recomend getting a game plan together. First Choose a Speed class you want to compete in.....

Then choose a car that can compete in that class as stock as possible (for reliability) thats in your price range.

Take the car to a Fab shop and have a full 12 point cage installed to keep you alive when you fly off the road.

Invest in a set of Competition calipers and rotors and some Road slicks

HAve Fun and try not to die.

Adrenaline_Z

^ Suicide Solution - Ozzy Osbourne.

So what's the object of this "challenge"? To move a 3500+ lb car around
slight bends at 200+ MPH?

You might want to reseach the effects of g-force in such a heavy car in corners.

If this isn't some sort of joke, then your focus will be suspension and traction,
only second to the many safety devices and chassis reinforcements to keep
you somewhat intact when the car flips 50 times over a mile going 200 MPH+.

I can't imagine the power needed to move a car up hills at that speed.

How much money did you win during the last lottery?

Wnts2Go10O

iTrader: (12)

heres the deal, i recommended him to this site. hes been planning this for a VERY long time and knows what hes getting into just not the technical aspects. hes a driving enthusiast not a tech nut. hes not gonna go ***** to the walls 2nd time out. eventually he wants into the unlimited class but will be content with working up to that going from 130-140-etc.. believe me hes very serious about this... hell if he wasnt would he run his korean mad DD just to get experience?

DeltaT

iTrader: (5)

I'd start with a driving school, like Bob Bondurant, or Skip Barber. Then you can use their equipment and instruction to get familiar with modern stuff, at increasing speeds AND with a lot of supervision and feedback.

Remember, knowledge is NOT the same as experience. You could get the best advice here and still kill yourself or someone else.

Driving well really fast means a lot of time spent driving well at slower speeds, practicing on smoothness, and getting 'your chops' (experience).

I always liked this statement by Arthur Jones:

"Good judgement comes from experience."

"Experience comes from bad judgement."

Make the mistakes on a supervised track.

Hope this helps.

Jim

super_kev

iTrader: (5)

You will find that the majority of the people here "do not have any ulterior motives or agendas". The internet is not a big conspiracy. It's a very useful tool, and forums are where knowledge and experience can be freely shared and discussed. Once you see how valuable they can be, you'll never know how you lived without 'em.

Yes and no. You need to understand what you are doing before you take the risk. There is an element of responsiblity that lays on your shoulders. Don't come crying to us if you drive off a cliff because you were going too fast around a corner.

Yes, it's true that you don't know who's on the other side of a post. You will learn how to judge and know who's running at the mouth and who isn't. Most "experts" here won't go around bragging that they are an expert. Everyone has his special area of knowledge, and can help you out in some way. There will be occasional conficts in the information you read on these boards. Why? Well, you'll get the occasional individual who has a loose screw. And you have to take into account that we all come from different backgrounds and have had different experiences. This gives us a different point of view from one another. Is it bad? No, not at all; you'll learn to put things together and get a formula that works.

Knight, you mentioned you have no idea what you are doing, and you don't know where your limit is. I would suggest that you slow down and plan on learning as much as you can before jumping into something like this. Failure to do so will put your life at risk. You can't learn it all overnight, so it will take some time.

Only you know what you are looking for. I can give you one budget road-race option that would run you, let's say, $30K, but another guy would say to go with a full blow 'vette in excess of $100K. Which is best? It depends on what you're expectations are and what you can work with. The car has something to do with it, but the driver is what's behind the wheel, making the car do it's thing. We can give you advice, but when it comes down to it, you are the one with the pocketbook, and you'll have to make your own decisions based on the information provided.

My first suggestion would be to go and talk to those who've run in the SSC and see their cars, ride with them and see how they drive, and ask questions. I would also search this forum, as many members have driven the SSC, and their experiences are posted here and are just a search away. All the information you are looking for can be found here, but it will take some effort on your part to find it all.

Here's a search tip:

When searching for a SCC related event (or anything else, for that matter), try "silver state" instead of "2005 silver state classic". Often people will post and mention: "I drove in the silver state classic this year", or "I drove in the silver state", or "The SSC was great". If you notice, "2005" and "05" weren't mentioned in any of those quotes. One of them was missing "classic" and the last one was missing the whole "silver state classic" string all together. What this means is that if you search for "silver state classic", you'll automatically kill 2 out of the 3 examples. So try a search for "silver state" and "SCC", and if you want to find information on a corvette that drove in the silver state, try "vette silver state" or "corvette silver state".


I'm sure you are nervous about posting, and if anyone says boo to you about your idea, you might take it the wrong way and go yell at the people who told you to come here. It's good to come here and look for information. But to say that you want a fast car that has lots of power for doing a 200MPH road race, and you don't even know what your limit is or where to start... it just gets me (and others) nervous. Do you mind if I ask how old you are and what you're driving experience is? I'm trying to help you out and be patient, but there is some groundwork that you need to do as well.

Good luck.

Richiec77

iTrader: (3)

I'm going to post up any info I have in the Advanced Technical Area. This will become a very cool and exciting discussion that will involve aspects of NASCAR and other endurance Racing.

The Road Race section can probably help you out as far as Technical schools. Super_Kev is SO on the money. HE gave you alot of good advice on how to approach this situation. Others here like me can give some ideas on Technical aspects to look at.

super_kev

iTrader: (5)

Yes, I agree, this could get interesting.

As I was typing my previous post, 8KickassRS9 and DeltaT wrote theirs out (I spend too much time thinking about what I post, haha) so I didn't see their posts until afterwards. I agree that you should hit up Skip Barber or Bondurant where you can increase your driving skills under the wing of a experienced instructor. As DeltaT said, you can read up on everything, but the experience is what makes the difference.

For example, when I actually undertook a project to build a rollcage, it was different from reading everybody's idea on how to design one, mainly because I hadn't done it with my own two hands. However, I had read how to design them and had seen pictures of cages so I could decide what I liked and didn't like about a certain cage. By putting together what I liked, I was able to build the cage I wanted.

Racehead

I've been doing ORR events since '01 and have done both the Silver State runs and MKM's PE130 event. I consider my car, which has been built entirely by myself, to be very well setup up for this type of racing, and in fact is ready to move up to the SS ( 180 mph ) class. I've been running this whole time in the Grand Sport classes. You can see the in-car vid of part of last years run at the PE130 in Battle Mountain NV in my signature. BTW there are only 2 people on this forum that I know of who actually do ORR events, myself and NataSS.

If you have any specific questions then go ahead and fire away. What Class and division did you run the Challenge event in ?

BTW the 4th gen fbody is an outstanding platform to build an ORR car from. I'm sure you know of Todd Carpenters car ?

Knight

Thanks for your reply. I had tried for many years to get to the event and was finally able to attend this year. I am cautious, thorough, and disciplined. When I meant that I don't know anything I meant it in two areas:

1) I have already run the course at over 100 miles per hour in a car that I later found out was only meant to go 100 miles per hour at the very top of it's speed rating. I have skills. I have completed the Derek Daly driving school. I have exceeded the abilities of my current car. I have tried this and I know that I want to continue and I want to move up into the higher classes. I believe that with proper training and a lot of practice that I will be ready by September of 2006 for the 150 - 160 mile per hour class. Everything will depend on the training and my appraisal of my skills. I have until August 31, 2006 to submit my application so that gives me a lot of time to attend schools and go to events. This is not some wild 'pie in the sky' dream and I am not some teenager who just got his driver's license. I intend to take a good, hard look at this before I fill out my application for 2006. I have contacted NASA, SCCA, Car Clubs, and private driving schools in my area. But until I can tell them specifically what car I am driving and what has been done to it, they can not give me a "class" designation so they and I have no idea where to start. Where should I concentrate? Autocross? Road Racing? Rallying? Time Attack? HPDE? You get the idea. So that is the driving part.

2) I need a more powerful car. What do I look for? Make? Model? Engine? Transmission? What is needed in this car? Safety equipment is in the rules, I mean engine etc. I have contacted people who have run this event and some have sent private emails. Like I said, I was referred to this board. I didn't even know you existed. Some people say that the engine is everything. Okay, what kind? Natural or fuel injected? Should it be turbo, or supercharged? Nitrous Oxide? Big block or small block? Should it be 4 cylinder, 6, 8, 10, 12, or even 16? Others have said that it is not the engine but the transmission. Same question. What about 'gearing'? What about 'aerodynamics'? Suspension? Weight? What is 'footwork'?? This car must be able to meet the rules for all of the groups listed above. It must also run on pump gas and be street legal. I spoke to Dajiario Inada and his Nissan 350Z was custom built by Nisssan, Top Secret, and the best tuners and builders in Japan. It also cost over $250,000 US. This is way outside of my league. I have had guys tell me that they can build me a car for $10,000 and then other people say that they are full of garbage. I have contacted businesses and the conversation goes like this:

Me: Hi, I would like to get some information on the services that you provide to build a car?

Them: Who are you?

Me: My name is xxxxx

Them: I've never heard of you. Are you with a magazine?

Me: No.

Them: Are you with a professional race team?

Me: No.

Them: "click, then dial tone."

I said that I know nothing because I was being honest. I am looking for people who are willing to take their experience and help a new guy under their wing. If you spent $10,000 on parts and the guy did not deliver as promised or it did not perform as quoted, then I don't have to make the same mistake. Just tell me and I will avoid him. I have one gentleman who sent me the complete plans on how he built his 1,200 horsepower, 1982, Corvette. It is street legal and runs on pump gas. He drives it daily without any problems. You know what? I could not duplicate it even if I had all of the money now. I mean he has pages of parts, numbers, photos, and when I see it, all I see is gibberish. I don't want to be someone's guinnea pig. This is my neck on the line and I take this very seriously. I don't have the time to go back to college and get a degree in Automotive Engineering or whatever else is required.

I am sorry if I mislead anyone into thinking that I will blindly follow anything someone types at a keyboard. Or that I have never done anything like this before. I am just saying that I know where I am and where I want to go. It is the in between area that I have no ideas about.

Thank you for your help. I hope it will continue.

Sincerley,

Knight

Racehead

Let's see here .... where to start ? First off, when you tell me that you're planning on going 150-160 mph by next year I have NO way of knowing what you're talking about. Do you mean 150 TECH/TOP speed ? Or 150 TARGET/AVERAGE speed ? From here on out, for clarity sake, just tell me what class i.e. Touring/Grand Touring/Grand Sport/Supersport etc. and what speed division within this class you plan on going and I can tailor my advice to help you achieve your goals. And just so you know you're not going to be ready to go any faster than the 140 mph division in the Grand Sport class by next year. You need seat time to become acclimated to approaching turns at 165 mph type speeds. If you were doing 100 mph at the last event then I'm sure you realize that it's pretty slow on these desert races. You probably only had to slow down once going into the narrows ? It's a differant ballgame when you're approaching the turns at 165+ mph. Here's the basics IMO.

1.You need a car. It's going to seem very biased and maybe it is, but IMO you cannot beat the 4th gen fbody platform for an ORR car. The LT1's will do the job, the LS1's will do it better and more reliably. The LS1 car will do almost 170 mph bonestock if you remove the speed limiter. There are many other cars that you can use, but for many reasons the fbody is VERY hard to beat for ORR, even for a 'Vette, Viper, Porsche etc.

2. Suspension: You need to lower the car with some decent springs if it's stock and put on some good shocks. Bilsteins are good. Koni's are much better, depends on your budget ? Alignment is critical at these speeds too.

3. Safety:You need at minimum a rollbar that's mounted to spec, some 5 or 6 point harnesses, and metal valve stems. Once you have these things in place then you're good to go in the Grand Sport class.

4. There's a bunch of other stuff that will make your car safer/more reliable that you'll eventually be doing. Probably one of the first things is a differential cooler. But the above will at least get you going in the Grand Sport class, which is where you'll begin to learn to drive at high speeds.

EDIT: And BTW there is really no other organized form of racing available to you to really prepare you for ORR speeds. The closest you can come is Open tracking/lap days etc. Try to pick the highest speed track that you can find. And having taken the Derek Daly school for my maiden voyage in '01 I can tell you that it's not really much more than a quicky to give you the very basics. I did have a great time there though I'm not sure what's available in your area, but I took the Proformance race school near Seattle and it was 10x's the race school that Derek Daly was. Try to find a good one in your area.

DONAIMIAN

iTrader: (18)

My opinion for the car would just be a stock f-body with upgraded brake pads, performance alignment and saftey gear. These cars can go pretty fast as they are, and you even said that you werent experience so you dont need any more power that stock, just safety equitment.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

My friend, you scare me ...

Making a driving school and competing in one event ....
"I have skills"
"I have exceeded the abilities of my current car"

You must be a Micheal Schumacher clone. I have been on road courses since '99 and AXing since '97 and have just now won my first race. I am nowhere near approaching the edge of my car ...

All the things you are asking for are not learned from an internet message board. they are learned through hard work and years of experience.

There is nothing wrong with setting one's goals high. As long as you can keep everything in perspective and realistic, then you should have a ton of fun.

You should probably learn a couple things before attempting to achieve your 160mph goal ...

It takes torque to push the air out of the way at those speeds

It takes a solid aero package to keep all the wheels on the ground

I've met a lot of folks who have run the SSC and BBOR ... they are a well funded, well organized and well prepared TEAM. It takes a helluva car, a helluva mechanic, a helluva engineer,a helluva driver and a helluva bank account to drive 160mph for 20 minutes straight ... twice.

Good luck.

gnx7

iTrader: (28)

Racing isn't cheap and it can certainly kill you if you aren't careful and have a well prepped car.

If you can fabricate/build pickup up a blown up C4 Corvette for $2-3K and plop in an LS1-T56 from an Fbody. You can put some seriously wide meats on the car and a full rollcage/fuel cell/safety equipment. 500hp flywheel will put a car with good aero into the 200mph range.

An easier and most likely cheaper route would be an LS1/T56 Fbody. I see ones for sale around $10K all the time.

I think you really need to continue building your skills either with SCCA or NASAProRacing (HPDE). If you have simply taken 1 hi perf driver education school and run another event... you need more seat time man. NASA has a TimeTrial Unlimited group that I race in. It has really allowed me to get used to my car and I have lots of room for improvement still.

Good luck... take baby steps... and buy a house first instead of blowing all your money on racing.

If you want to be a real race car driver in the future.... I would suggest buying a $7-10K shifter kart and go race that. That is the cheapest and easiest way to get into racing and become recognized after winning some championships.

-Mark

Wnts2Go10O

iTrader: (12)

heh... hes older than ya think...

Knight

mitchntx

No, I am not Michael Schumacher. I drove a 2004, 4 cylinder, 4 door, economy sedan at 120 miles per hour for the majority of the event. I said over 100 miles per hour, not exactly 100 miles per hour. I have been informed by Dealer personnel that this car was never intended to do even 100 miles per hour. Much less the high rate of speed and the distance that I drove it at speed. (Boy, did I get a talking too about this.) You know yourself that this event has many long, straight, and high speed sections where I believe I could have gone faster if I had a more powerful and stable car.

I want to participate next year and go into a higher class. The statement I made was not a brag, it is a safety issue. If I ever want to do this again, I WILL have to purchase another car. I am not an Automotive Engineer and I can not afford to go back to college again to get this degree. I just want to participate in these events and move up in class as my abilities increase. People have told me that they can build me what I need for a low cost of under $10,000 and on the high side of over $200,000. Everyone wants the money in cash up front and I don't even know what to ask them to put into the car. Safety equipment is by class. But everything else???? Well, that’s why I am posting on this board. Your points about aerodynamics and handling are well taken. But, I disagree with the estimates of the costs involved. A lot of people just lived in the area and drove up to the event. I have seen their cars both inside and out. They did not have extensive teams of engineers and other staff. However, with my mechanical knowledge, I would not recognize any special components or understand what they are saying even if they told me. Again, that’s why I am posting.

Racehead

You are correct. I should be more clear. I would like to participate in the 160 mile per hour average class. Having participated you know that the required minimum speed is only 130 miles per hour. Having already completed the course at 120 miles per hour, it does not seem that difficult especially in the high speed sections to maintain this minimum speed, if not faster. The turns are exempt from these requirements. You are only required to take the turns at whatever speed you feel safe. I am not in this for trophies or to become a professional driver. I have no one to answer to except myself. This is a personal challenge. Nothing more, nothing less. I have access to NASA events starting in January of 2006. If after completing these, along with local driving schools, and other events, I do not honestly believe that I will be able to safely participate at that speed, then I will register for a lower class. I will continue trying to move up in class each year, depending on other factors. I have seen your car in the link you sent me and it is very impressive. I don’t have to submit my application into the registration desk until August 31, 2006. So there is still plenty of time.

Summary:

Having read the posts and your messages, I believe that the first question has been answered. I believe that you are all saying that the Camaro, Corvette, and Firebird are all acceptable cars. For cost purposes, I will probably have to narrow this choice to the Camaro or the Firebird.

The second question is what make and year should be selected.

The rest of the questions are about the types of performance equipment that will be required for a car with the potential of eventually reaching into the Unlimited Class. Again, I am stressing the word ‘potential’. I know that my education, level of practice, and history of experience will have a lot to do with this decision as well as my personal danger versus reward analysis. I have been told to plan for the highest level because it is far more expensive to remove current components and install new ones as you move from class to class.

So, here we are. Remember what has already been posted by others. I am not a tech nut, but a driving enthusiast. You have all mentioned different components from aerodynamics to engines, to transmissions, etc. So, Where do we go from here? What’s the first thing to plan for?

I am not spending any money or making any commitments until I have a thorough understanding of everything involved and then developed a detailed plan followed by a budget. I will then take a serious look at whether this is possible given my resources. Thank you for your help.

Cal

iTrader: (1)

Knight, ORR is a worthy form of racing to get involved in, but I suggest you do some autoX and then LSR (Land Speed Racing) first. Both of those will allow you to explore how a car behaves at the limits, as well as give you an opportunity to develop the right reflexes at those limits, but with minimal risk.

AutoX is done at low speeds (typically 40 mph) and when you make a mistake, you don't fly off the road, you just take out some rubber cones.

In Land Speed Racing on the Bonneville Salt Flats, you can make 150 mph runs on a clear, unobstucted plane of salt miles wide. So if you spin out, typically there are no consequences, since most decent cars will not roll over. So you just slide until the speed bleeds off.

I have done both AX and LSR, and both are a lot of fun for minimum bucks. But best of all is what you learn about driving.

As for the car, an fbody has a great bang-to-buck ratio. They are much cheaper than a Corvette, yet have the same engine and tranmission. And they are well suited to many different types of racing. 4th gens are best, and the 2001 or 2002 models are the best of those.

Have fun and be safe!

Racehead

Knight, now that I know what you're thinking I'm going to have to begin by throwing a little bit of cold water. For one thing they will NEVER let you enter into the 160 mph target class, which by default means 180 tech speed, by next year. You simply don't have the experience (let alone the car) for those speeds. The last thing they want is for you to kill yourself and possibly even get the sport banned your first time out. I think you should start by entering at the bottom of Grand Sport, which is probably as fast as they'll let you go on your next time out anyway. 165/130 mph is a good fun place to start. You might be shocked at how much faster it feels over what your last run was. After you've run this once they will probably allow you to move up to 165/140 mph. Again, even with the same tech speed, moving the target up 10 mph to 140 mph will definitely surprise you with how much faster you have to go to average it. It's flat smokin' down the highway Then once you've done this I would at least do ONE MORE run at the top of Grand Sport, maybe 150-155 or so.

If you can handle this then you might be ready to try Supersport 180/160 mph. Now you're running with the big boys and you'd better have your car dialed and you skills up to snuff. Mistakes don't go unpunished at these speeds let me warn you I'd figure your a MINIMUM of 2 years from attempting these speeds, and that's if you do BOTH events each year ( for a total of 4 ) and attempt this run during your 3rd year ( 5th or 6th event )

In the mean time I highly recommend you do another school or 2 and a bunch of open track days on the highest speed tracks that you can find. This alone won't be cheap ( but it WILL be fun ) but you honestly need to get your skill set on the same level as your dreams. You can make it happen, but like others have already said, it won't be cheap, and will take a while to achieve. Fix your gaze on the next step, which IMHO means just this in a nutshell

Buy an Fbody ( '98-'02 if you can, '93-'97 if you can't ) , complete necessary safety gear installations, take it to the track, make necessary changes to suspension for handling, and necessary brake work for safety, enter ORR event at 165/130 mph. Don't even bother with HP mods now, you won't need them for a while.

And just for my own information, you say you went 120 mph, but what was your average speed ? Or what's your real name and I'll go look for myself PM me if you'd like.

redmist

I agree with GNX the C4 vette is a good lower cost platform that responds well to moderate levels of suspension tuning, slippery in the air, great aftermarket support for safety equipment and aero packages and absorbs a lot of energy in a crash. You could put together a hell of a car for $40k and recover a good portion of that if you sell it. I would start on getting the chassis together for handling the speed and then roll on the power.
You might save a lot of time, effort and money by getting an ex SCCA car without an engine and trans. All the safety stuff will be built in, brakes and suspension sorted out.
Powerwise my recommendation would be a single huge turbo on an LT1 or LS1 from a cost benefit standpoint. Who cares about turbo lag if your foot is basically in it all the time. Leave the bottom end alone, put in an oil cooler, o-ring the heads, sodium valves, big injectors and have someone tune the computer that knows what they are doing.
Just turn up the boost to get you where you want to go.