Mating a SBC/BBC Trans (T10, Muncie, Richmond, TKO) with an LS motor
10-02-2011, 01:45 PM
#1
Mating a SBC/BBC Trans (T10, Muncie, Richmond, TKO) with an LS motor I've seen and answered a lot of questions on putting a earlier Gen trans behind an LS motor here and in emails. I've done a Richmond 6 speed, Muncie, and T10 (in progress) behind LS motors. So I thought I would cut and paste the various answers in one post (also will remind my feeble mind what I did) If I make any mistakes or you have additions, please post.
Transmissions: Earlier Gen trans had a 6.66" long input shaft with a 0.59" diameter pilot bearing ID. Early T10s and Muncies had 10 spline input, later ones, TKOs, T5s are 26 spline. Richmonds can be either. The spline count will determine your flywheel/clutch. Ford trans have entirely different input shafts and trans/bellhousing bolt patterns. T5s that came from V6 f bodies have the ford trans/bellhousing pattern and wont even bolt up.
Bellhousings: Use a 621 BBC bell housing. It has the correct trans bolt pattern but is missing 1 bolt hole for the motor mounting. Keisler has a version with the added bolt hole. I bought one, it is a nice piece. SBC bellhousings have clearance problems, truck have the wrong diameter bearing retainer. Just get a 621. Be sure to zero it with offset dowels if needed. Some clearancing for the starter may be required.
Pilot bearing: LS7 PN 12557583. It's got the correct ID and seats in the outside flange of the crank. It does leave a gap between the taper on the input shaft, but the shaft does seat the full length into the bearing. There was an extended bearing offered aftermarket, but I dont see any advantage over the $15 LS7 bearing. There are reliable sources on the net that state the ID of the bearing is 22.7mm or (.894") . Don't know where they started, but they're wrong. The ID is 0.59.
One other note on pilot bearing removal. The LS cranks are drilled through the rear flange to the 7/8 journal (no idea why). The only thing that prevents oil from the pan leaking is a pressed in plug. If you use the hydraulic grease/bread method to remove the bearing, you can push the plug into the pan.
Flywheel/clutch: For 26 spline, I've used the LS1 flywheel/clutch. Info here indicates you're best off to buy matching flywheel/clutch combos. One note, the flywheel will be about 0.4" farther from the trans. This means the front of the disks internal splines will run off the splines on the input shaft. I've not heard of anyone having problems with this. It also means you'll need a longer throwout bearing (PT614037) compared to the BBC setup.
For 10 spline you can use a flywheel off an 05 Silverado 1 ton truck (Sachs 1050). It bolts to the crank and is drilled for an old school 11" BBC clutch. For pressure plate and 10 spline disk, just get one for any late 60s/early 70s BBC application. I think transmissions switched to 26 splies around 73, so you can even use this flywheel with a 26 spline clutch. The other advantage is that the flywheel is about 0.400" thicker, so the disk is correctly placed on the trans input shaft and the earlier throwout bearing and clutch fork geometry will be the same as the BBC application. Downside is that flywheels extra thickness comes with extra weight. Oh yeah, and the Sachs 1050 flywheel is about $60, and 11" clutch is only about $120.
The only modification with the sachs flywheel is that it comes with location dowels that need to be removed, no holes on the BBC pressure plate. And 3 of the bolt holes were too small on the pressure plate I got. I only bored them big enough to keep the plate correctly centered. Since there are no locator pins, it might be a good idea to have the flywheewl/pressure plate balanced together. I didn't on mine, but probably would if I did it again. Btw, one aftermarket company (Pace) sells this combo for about $700 with bellhousing, bolts, etc.
http://paceperformance.com/i-5146180...rsion-kit.html
Flywheel/clutch bolts: I bought the GM bolts for the flywheel/crank combo. I'm not sure if all bolts are the same length/thread. Note, the flywheel bolts come with a sealant. The crank flang holes are drilled al the way through, without the sealant oil from the pan can leak through.. If you reuse them, they will leak. Buy new ones. For the pressure plate bolts, I use the ones specific to the flywheel. This is important on the Sachs 1050, since it's threads are deeper. Pressure plate bolt #12561465.
Throwout bearing: The thicker Sachs flywheel will work with the old 1.25" throwout bearing, clutch fork, and pivot ball. An adjustable pivot ball is always a good idea, and here's a good site for clutch for geometry.
http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/clutches_etc.htm
And the shallower LS1 flywheel will require a longer, about 1 3/4", GM throwout bearing (PT614037).
I've never done a hydraulic on this combo, so feel free to add your info.
Speedo/VSS: Most old trans have a mechanical speedo. You can use this but you'll need a VSS signal to the ECU to prevent stalling issues. Dakota Digital sells a pass thru VSS that can be put inline. It can be, but doesnt need to be, tuned to give correct speed and will still prevent stalling issues. It will not provide enough pulses per mile to get a DBW cruise control working properly. One note, Dakota Digital has an unlisted 8" extension cable if you dont have enogh clearance to mount the VSS directly on the trans.
Inspection Plate covers: The oil pan fills in the center section of the bell housing opening. There is a cover on each side that bolt to the block. PN 12558718 and 12561536. Updated numbers 24261712 and 24261713.
Tuning: I dont do any....but....I've had a problem with rpm hanging or even increasing on DBW ECU from auto trans cars when the throttle is dropped and clutch engaged. Not sure if it's related to trans, traction control, etc, but it went away with a manual trans ECU. Maybe someone can help with this.
An LQ9 with LS1 intake, Keisler LS 621 bellhousing, Ls1 clutch, Richmond 6 speed
Sachs 1050 flywheel, pins removed, with 11" BBC 10 spline clutch.
Note 3 bolt holes are smaller and extra thickness of flywheel.
And mounted to an 05 LM59 (flex fuel 5.3)
With a Muncie attached to a standard 621 bellhousing
Transmissions: Earlier Gen trans had a 6.66" long input shaft with a 0.59" diameter pilot bearing ID. Early T10s and Muncies had 10 spline input, later ones, TKOs, T5s are 26 spline. Richmonds can be either. The spline count will determine your flywheel/clutch. Ford trans have entirely different input shafts and trans/bellhousing bolt patterns. T5s that came from V6 f bodies have the ford trans/bellhousing pattern and wont even bolt up.
Bellhousings: Use a 621 BBC bell housing. It has the correct trans bolt pattern but is missing 1 bolt hole for the motor mounting. Keisler has a version with the added bolt hole. I bought one, it is a nice piece. SBC bellhousings have clearance problems, truck have the wrong diameter bearing retainer. Just get a 621. Be sure to zero it with offset dowels if needed. Some clearancing for the starter may be required.
Pilot bearing: LS7 PN 12557583. It's got the correct ID and seats in the outside flange of the crank. It does leave a gap between the taper on the input shaft, but the shaft does seat the full length into the bearing. There was an extended bearing offered aftermarket, but I dont see any advantage over the $15 LS7 bearing. There are reliable sources on the net that state the ID of the bearing is 22.7mm or (.894") . Don't know where they started, but they're wrong. The ID is 0.59.
One other note on pilot bearing removal. The LS cranks are drilled through the rear flange to the 7/8 journal (no idea why). The only thing that prevents oil from the pan leaking is a pressed in plug. If you use the hydraulic grease/bread method to remove the bearing, you can push the plug into the pan.
Flywheel/clutch: For 26 spline, I've used the LS1 flywheel/clutch. Info here indicates you're best off to buy matching flywheel/clutch combos. One note, the flywheel will be about 0.4" farther from the trans. This means the front of the disks internal splines will run off the splines on the input shaft. I've not heard of anyone having problems with this. It also means you'll need a longer throwout bearing (PT614037) compared to the BBC setup.
For 10 spline you can use a flywheel off an 05 Silverado 1 ton truck (Sachs 1050). It bolts to the crank and is drilled for an old school 11" BBC clutch. For pressure plate and 10 spline disk, just get one for any late 60s/early 70s BBC application. I think transmissions switched to 26 splies around 73, so you can even use this flywheel with a 26 spline clutch. The other advantage is that the flywheel is about 0.400" thicker, so the disk is correctly placed on the trans input shaft and the earlier throwout bearing and clutch fork geometry will be the same as the BBC application. Downside is that flywheels extra thickness comes with extra weight. Oh yeah, and the Sachs 1050 flywheel is about $60, and 11" clutch is only about $120.
The only modification with the sachs flywheel is that it comes with location dowels that need to be removed, no holes on the BBC pressure plate. And 3 of the bolt holes were too small on the pressure plate I got. I only bored them big enough to keep the plate correctly centered. Since there are no locator pins, it might be a good idea to have the flywheewl/pressure plate balanced together. I didn't on mine, but probably would if I did it again. Btw, one aftermarket company (Pace) sells this combo for about $700 with bellhousing, bolts, etc.
http://paceperformance.com/i-5146180...rsion-kit.html
Flywheel/clutch bolts: I bought the GM bolts for the flywheel/crank combo. I'm not sure if all bolts are the same length/thread. Note, the flywheel bolts come with a sealant. The crank flang holes are drilled al the way through, without the sealant oil from the pan can leak through.. If you reuse them, they will leak. Buy new ones. For the pressure plate bolts, I use the ones specific to the flywheel. This is important on the Sachs 1050, since it's threads are deeper. Pressure plate bolt #12561465.
Throwout bearing: The thicker Sachs flywheel will work with the old 1.25" throwout bearing, clutch fork, and pivot ball. An adjustable pivot ball is always a good idea, and here's a good site for clutch for geometry.
http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/clutches_etc.htm
And the shallower LS1 flywheel will require a longer, about 1 3/4", GM throwout bearing (PT614037).
I've never done a hydraulic on this combo, so feel free to add your info.
Speedo/VSS: Most old trans have a mechanical speedo. You can use this but you'll need a VSS signal to the ECU to prevent stalling issues. Dakota Digital sells a pass thru VSS that can be put inline. It can be, but doesnt need to be, tuned to give correct speed and will still prevent stalling issues. It will not provide enough pulses per mile to get a DBW cruise control working properly. One note, Dakota Digital has an unlisted 8" extension cable if you dont have enogh clearance to mount the VSS directly on the trans.
Inspection Plate covers: The oil pan fills in the center section of the bell housing opening. There is a cover on each side that bolt to the block. PN 12558718 and 12561536. Updated numbers 24261712 and 24261713.
Tuning: I dont do any....but....I've had a problem with rpm hanging or even increasing on DBW ECU from auto trans cars when the throttle is dropped and clutch engaged. Not sure if it's related to trans, traction control, etc, but it went away with a manual trans ECU. Maybe someone can help with this.
An LQ9 with LS1 intake, Keisler LS 621 bellhousing, Ls1 clutch, Richmond 6 speed
Sachs 1050 flywheel, pins removed, with 11" BBC 10 spline clutch.
Note 3 bolt holes are smaller and extra thickness of flywheel.
And mounted to an 05 LM59 (flex fuel 5.3)
With a Muncie attached to a standard 621 bellhousing
Last edited by garys 68; 02-13-2016 at 08:46 AM. Reason: adding pics
10-03-2011, 09:34 AM
#2
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (7)
Good write up Gary.
I can add a few more bits of information.
Here is a picture of a reproduction 621 bellhousing
I got mine from Keisler, but there any numerous sources.
Don't forge to check the bellhousing for run-out and trueness to the block:
Here is the LS7 pilot bearing. Notice where it sits in the crank and how the input shaft engages it:
When installing the clutch it is imperative to have a good alignment tool. You can cheap plastic one, but I prefer a quality one made by Quarter Master:
This is how a LS7 clutch looks installed inside the 621 bellhousing:
Gary did a nice job of covering the manual throw out bearing issues. I can add that it is possible to also install a hydraulic throw out bearing assembly. If you are working with a chassis that originally had a hydraulically actuated clutch, like an RX7 or Nissan, then it is just a matter of adapting a universal type MC, like a Wilwood, to the chassis. Sometimes even stock MCs will work, you just have to make sure that the bore of the MC is adequate with whatever TOB that is being used.
For cars that originally did not have a hydraulic TOB, there are kits from various manufacturers that allow for an MC to be mounted to the firewall and have the appropriate link to the stock clutch pedal. I got my kit from Keisler and it works on all 1968-72 GM A-bodies.
I chose a TOB from Quarter Master. It has some limitations in regard to travel, but it is a solid unit. The LS7 clutch does not need much movement of the spring to achieve full release. For clutches that need more travel, Howe makes a good bearing with more travel. When working with bearings such as the Quarter Master or the Howe, it is important to have them spaced properly so the bearing is close to the clutch fingers, but not touching. I prefer a gap of about .100" to .125" between the bearing face and the clutch fingers. This is achieved by careful measure and the use of shims (see them behind the bearing?) Here is how it mounts to the transmission:
The stud at the 7 o'clock location on the bearing retainer gets replaced with a special stud and the groove on the bearing body will slide on that stud and keep the bearing from rotating.
MC mounted on the firewall:
Pedal hooked up:
Here is the bearing at rest:
Here is the bearing at full clutch release:
There are many variables that will ultimately determine how far the TOB travels with any particular combination of parts. The bearing design, MC travel, and MC bore size all determine how far the bearing is move given a stroke of the clutch pedal. If the engine and transmission are out of the car, it is a good idea to mock things up and test them out. The testing is much easier to do outside the car, than on your back under the car. Here I mocked everything up to make sure that the clutch was releasing fully:
That about does it!
Andrew
I can add a few more bits of information.
Here is a picture of a reproduction 621 bellhousing
I got mine from Keisler, but there any numerous sources.
Don't forge to check the bellhousing for run-out and trueness to the block:
Here is the LS7 pilot bearing. Notice where it sits in the crank and how the input shaft engages it:
When installing the clutch it is imperative to have a good alignment tool. You can cheap plastic one, but I prefer a quality one made by Quarter Master:
This is how a LS7 clutch looks installed inside the 621 bellhousing:
Gary did a nice job of covering the manual throw out bearing issues. I can add that it is possible to also install a hydraulic throw out bearing assembly. If you are working with a chassis that originally had a hydraulically actuated clutch, like an RX7 or Nissan, then it is just a matter of adapting a universal type MC, like a Wilwood, to the chassis. Sometimes even stock MCs will work, you just have to make sure that the bore of the MC is adequate with whatever TOB that is being used.
For cars that originally did not have a hydraulic TOB, there are kits from various manufacturers that allow for an MC to be mounted to the firewall and have the appropriate link to the stock clutch pedal. I got my kit from Keisler and it works on all 1968-72 GM A-bodies.
I chose a TOB from Quarter Master. It has some limitations in regard to travel, but it is a solid unit. The LS7 clutch does not need much movement of the spring to achieve full release. For clutches that need more travel, Howe makes a good bearing with more travel. When working with bearings such as the Quarter Master or the Howe, it is important to have them spaced properly so the bearing is close to the clutch fingers, but not touching. I prefer a gap of about .100" to .125" between the bearing face and the clutch fingers. This is achieved by careful measure and the use of shims (see them behind the bearing?) Here is how it mounts to the transmission:
The stud at the 7 o'clock location on the bearing retainer gets replaced with a special stud and the groove on the bearing body will slide on that stud and keep the bearing from rotating.
MC mounted on the firewall:
Pedal hooked up:
Here is the bearing at rest:
Here is the bearing at full clutch release:
There are many variables that will ultimately determine how far the TOB travels with any particular combination of parts. The bearing design, MC travel, and MC bore size all determine how far the bearing is move given a stroke of the clutch pedal. If the engine and transmission are out of the car, it is a good idea to mock things up and test them out. The testing is much easier to do outside the car, than on your back under the car. Here I mocked everything up to make sure that the clutch was releasing fully:
That about does it!
Andrew
10-08-2011, 04:46 PM
#3
Launching!
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great work! i've been reading the same old threads about this subject, good to haver the info compiled into one thread...
quick question, working on 69 camaro car originally had 10.5 clutch/bellhousing......will the same sbc z-bar and linkage work with the 621 bellhousing?
or is that where the ball stud relocation bracket is needed for the bell
quick question, working on 69 camaro car originally had 10.5 clutch/bellhousing......will the same sbc z-bar and linkage work with the 621 bellhousing?
or is that where the ball stud relocation bracket is needed for the bell
Last edited by pairof69s; 10-08-2011 at 04:53 PM.
10-09-2011, 03:16 AM
#6
There's no boss on the LS block for the Z bar mount. On my corvette, I added a plate behind the motor mount.
SDparts also sells a mount that bolts to the trans.
http://sdparts.com/details/scoggin-d...ts-center/sdcb
And the corvette specific one:
http://sdparts.com/details/scoggin-d...s-center/sdcbv
On my 442 I relocated the frame mount back about 1" and used the boss on the 621 housing for the Z bar. Keep in mind, your mount location will depend on your motor plates.
C3 corvette:
442. One of my pics above shows the stud mounted to the bellhousing:
SDparts also sells a mount that bolts to the trans.
http://sdparts.com/details/scoggin-d...ts-center/sdcb
And the corvette specific one:
http://sdparts.com/details/scoggin-d...s-center/sdcbv
On my 442 I relocated the frame mount back about 1" and used the boss on the 621 housing for the Z bar. Keep in mind, your mount location will depend on your motor plates.
C3 corvette:
442. One of my pics above shows the stud mounted to the bellhousing:
Great work! i've been reading the same old threads about this subject, good to haver the info compiled into one thread...
quick question, working on 69 camaro car originally had 10.5 clutch/bellhousing......will the same sbc z-bar and linkage work with the 621 bellhousing?
or is that where the ball stud relocation bracket is needed for the bell
quick question, working on 69 camaro car originally had 10.5 clutch/bellhousing......will the same sbc z-bar and linkage work with the 621 bellhousing?
or is that where the ball stud relocation bracket is needed for the bell
Last edited by garys 68; 10-09-2011 at 02:59 PM.
10-23-2011, 10:42 AM
#7
Teching In
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Excellent write up!!!
I have been hunting all over the net for the Sachs 1050/old school 10 spline info for quite some time. Is it possible to add PN's and manufacturer for the 10 spline clutch assembly and TO bearing? In my location, even the Napa counter folks are clueless if you can't give the year, make & model. The heavy Sachs 1050 is perfect for my 5.3/FJ40 project. Helps with the low rpm lugging through the rough stuff. I plan to use the stock FJ40 clutch master cylinder/slave cylinder set-up to actuate the pivot arm.
2x for sticky!
I have been hunting all over the net for the Sachs 1050/old school 10 spline info for quite some time. Is it possible to add PN's and manufacturer for the 10 spline clutch assembly and TO bearing? In my location, even the Napa counter folks are clueless if you can't give the year, make & model. The heavy Sachs 1050 is perfect for my 5.3/FJ40 project. Helps with the low rpm lugging through the rough stuff. I plan to use the stock FJ40 clutch master cylinder/slave cylinder set-up to actuate the pivot arm.
2x for sticky!
Trending Topics
10-23-2011, 12:04 PM
#8
Prett much any 11" 65-72 BBC will work. I looked up a 69 corvette. Try Sachs K555203 for 10 spline.
Any 73+ BBC 11" will work for 26 spline, Sachs K555205
Oh yeah, these 2 share the same flywheel and pressure plate, so you can buy just a $40 disk if you want to switch from 10 to 26 spline.
I bought mine locally at Oreileys, shipping on heavy flywheel/clutch is expensive.
Any 73+ BBC 11" will work for 26 spline, Sachs K555205
Oh yeah, these 2 share the same flywheel and pressure plate, so you can buy just a $40 disk if you want to switch from 10 to 26 spline.
I bought mine locally at Oreileys, shipping on heavy flywheel/clutch is expensive.
Last edited by garys 68; 10-23-2011 at 12:20 PM.
01-12-2012, 11:44 PM
#10
WOW- you guys just saved me a ton of time. I'm doing a LY6 swap in a customer's 67 Camaro with a TKO and have been beating my head against the wall trying to come up with the missing variables- Thanks! - Chris
03-16-2012, 02:43 AM
#11
When I bought the clutch for the 10 spline Muncie, I found that the same part number was used for the Sachs pressure plate on early 70s 10 spline or later 70s 26 spline clutch disks. So, I could swap out the 10 spline trans for a 26 with only a $50 disk change...planning ahead....
So that day is here. I'm pulling the Muncie and installing a T10. It has a lower first than the Muncie, and I also added a VSS to the trans. The DBW cruise control isn't happy with the low pulse per mile the Dakota Digital inline VSS puts out.
The Sachs BBD4148 disk with 26 splines.
And the 82 f body T10 tail compared to a Muncie. The T10 is actually about 3/8" longer. Wont matter much since my trans is forward of the original position about 1/4" with 1" setback plates.
So that day is here. I'm pulling the Muncie and installing a T10. It has a lower first than the Muncie, and I also added a VSS to the trans. The DBW cruise control isn't happy with the low pulse per mile the Dakota Digital inline VSS puts out.
The Sachs BBD4148 disk with 26 splines.
And the 82 f body T10 tail compared to a Muncie. The T10 is actually about 3/8" longer. Wont matter much since my trans is forward of the original position about 1/4" with 1" setback plates.
03-16-2012, 03:05 PM
#13
Teching In
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Big thanks on the info im in the middle of a ls3/muncie swap as we speak.
Does anyone know were I can get a Sachs 1050 in canada, seems the car quest's, parts sources, canadian tires cant get fly wheels and the dealer wants 841.00 for the stock truck one. Im trying to avoid shipping this from the states.
Does anyone know were I can get a Sachs 1050 in canada, seems the car quest's, parts sources, canadian tires cant get fly wheels and the dealer wants 841.00 for the stock truck one. Im trying to avoid shipping this from the states.
03-16-2012, 07:16 PM
#15
The problem I had was the pass thru Dakota Digital VSS for mechanical speedos did not have a high enough pulse rate for the stock DBW cruise control to work. So I used the T10 39 tooth reverse gear in the tail housing as a reluctor.
I bought a "blind " VSS from these guys.
http://www.magsensors.com/
A blind one doesnt have a seam for the fluid to seep through. I welded a bung on the side of the tailhousing to mount a 1/4" NPT plug, then tapped that for the fine thread VSS.
Pics. 0.20 bung welded on, you can see the reverse gear through the hole.
And the brass plug with VSS.
I bought a "blind " VSS from these guys.
http://www.magsensors.com/
A blind one doesnt have a seam for the fluid to seep through. I welded a bung on the side of the tailhousing to mount a 1/4" NPT plug, then tapped that for the fine thread VSS.
Pics. 0.20 bung welded on, you can see the reverse gear through the hole.
And the brass plug with VSS.
Last edited by garys 68; 03-17-2012 at 08:14 AM.
03-17-2012, 03:12 AM
#16
Sorry, cant help with Canada. But for $841, I would think you could fly to Florida (or some place with nice weather), and bring back a $60 Sachs flywheel.
Big thanks on the info im in the middle of a ls3/muncie swap as we speak.
Does anyone know were I can get a Sachs 1050 in canada, seems the car quest's, parts sources, canadian tires cant get fly wheels and the dealer wants 841.00 for the stock truck one. Im trying to avoid shipping this from the states.
Does anyone know were I can get a Sachs 1050 in canada, seems the car quest's, parts sources, canadian tires cant get fly wheels and the dealer wants 841.00 for the stock truck one. Im trying to avoid shipping this from the states.
04-15-2012, 02:40 PM
#17
Just an FYI for the other 1 or 2 people that want a VSS on their trans.
We have success with the T10 VSS. I cranked it down to 0.020" gap from the reluctor (reverse gear) and it's reading a speed now. I have to have the ecu reprogrammed for a 39 tooth reluctor. Right now the ecu is maxed out at 158mph at around 20 mph.
After I get the ecu back, I'll try the cruise control.
Update, cruise control works smoothly and ecu is reading correct speed with the 39 tooth reluctor reprogram.
We have success with the T10 VSS. I cranked it down to 0.020" gap from the reluctor (reverse gear) and it's reading a speed now. I have to have the ecu reprogrammed for a 39 tooth reluctor. Right now the ecu is maxed out at 158mph at around 20 mph.
After I get the ecu back, I'll try the cruise control.
Update, cruise control works smoothly and ecu is reading correct speed with the 39 tooth reluctor reprogram.
Last edited by garys 68; 05-13-2012 at 04:16 PM.
