Using HP tuners timing to reduce power for traction
08-14-2017, 11:52 AM
#1
Using HP tuners timing to reduce power for traction I did some searching and couldn't find anyone doing anything similar. I have an autocross coming up and I know that traction will be a problem again. Last year I ended up starting in third gear and running all my passes in third because 2nd was just way too powerful and hard to control due to tire spin. Third would still spin if I stayed in it long enough but was a little sluggish on the low end.
I want try it in 2nd gear this year but play with reducing the timing to take out a bunch of power. I'm sure this is probably just a trial and error type thing but I'm just curious if others have done this successfully.
I have a 0411 pcm, 6.0 and 6 speed in a truck.
I want try it in 2nd gear this year but play with reducing the timing to take out a bunch of power. I'm sure this is probably just a trial and error type thing but I'm just curious if others have done this successfully.
I have a 0411 pcm, 6.0 and 6 speed in a truck.
08-14-2017, 12:06 PM
#3
Yeah I should probably just sell this and get a Miata, they won't overpower the tires in stock form.
No but really, I was surprised at how competitive I was last year with no forethought or prep. This year I am trying to improve on a few things on a budget because I am building a turbo nova wagon and a house right now and I don't have spare monies for tires.
No but really, I was surprised at how competitive I was last year with no forethought or prep. This year I am trying to improve on a few things on a budget because I am building a turbo nova wagon and a house right now and I don't have spare monies for tires.
08-14-2017, 12:46 PM
#7
I've reduced WOT timing for cars running index classes to slow them down. Once you get to about 18-19 degrees lowering it more seems to cause other problems and not help too much. From there when we need to slow them down more we use an adjustable throttle stop. Of course this is on a cable throttle body.
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08-14-2017, 01:05 PM
#8
Was it done for the purpose of reducing wheel spin? If not then why are you even reading this thread, let alone replying?
This forum is about information right? And when I searched I didn't find where anyone was doing it, so I started a new thread. Why the smartass comments?
This forum is about information right? And when I searched I didn't find where anyone was doing it, so I started a new thread. Why the smartass comments?
08-14-2017, 01:15 PM
#9
10 Second Club
iTrader: (8)
Yeah I should probably just sell this and get a Miata, they won't overpower the tires in stock form.
No but really, I was surprised at how competitive I was last year with no forethought or prep. This year I am trying to improve on a few things on a budget because I am building a turbo nova wagon and a house right now and I don't have spare monies for tires.
No but really, I was surprised at how competitive I was last year with no forethought or prep. This year I am trying to improve on a few things on a budget because I am building a turbo nova wagon and a house right now and I don't have spare monies for tires.
Are you dbw or cable? There are different cams on the tb for cable. A slower one may help you modulate the power better.
Stiffer bars to keep the inside rear from unlaoding might help to.
08-14-2017, 01:25 PM
#10
Restricted User
-Who has ran a wider tire and gained traction?
-Who has went boost and gained power?
-Who has removed parts and lost weight?
-Who has turned on their heater and felt warm air?
So yes, its a little hard for me to grasp the purpose of this post.
I have timing by gear setup on the stock PCM. Works like a charm running less timing in first gear to gain traction with a manual boost controller. Hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of racers pull timing in first gear to gain traction. Its common practice.
08-14-2017, 01:34 PM
#11
Was it done for the purpose of reducing wheel spin? If not then why are you even reading this thread, let alone replying?
This forum is about information right? And when I searched I didn't find where anyone was doing it, so I started a new thread. Why the smartass comments?
This forum is about information right? And when I searched I didn't find where anyone was doing it, so I started a new thread. Why the smartass comments?
What I think he is trying to say is, there is a timing map. If you reduce the numbers in the timing map, the torque output of the engine will decrease in that region. This can bandaid the traction issue (unless it is occuring in regions of max power output, which it should be if this was a drag racing only type of car. A solution is that case is slicks). The only possible side effect is high EGT. So Run an EGT probe and be prepared to install a water injection system at any instant to help control EGT. I would never run a car on any kind of race track without a 100% distilled water injection apparatus, if it was really a performance application (higher than "expected" output from an engine) without severe monitoring because EGT and other temps tend to get out of control, especially when all of the components are very well insulated as proper (thinking about turbos with blankets ontop of blankets).
There are other solutions besides reducing timing. Better tires come to mind. Boost reduction limiter (if the car is turbo turn down or control the boost pressure). Alternative gearing is probably your best option since it would also correct the space between 2nd and 3rd where your car "can't decide" when it should in reality most likely be in third. So if the rear gear is 3.42 right now for example, you might want to calculate a 3.73, to help you into 3rd for those regions where you race more. As an aside, water injection also reduces power output.
08-14-2017, 01:42 PM
#12
Restricted User
Don't mind Joe, blame me instead for whatever he says. I like the abuse.
What I think he is trying to say is, there is a timing map. If you reduce the numbers in the timing map, the torque output of the engine will decrease in that region. This can bandaid the traction issue (unless it is occuring in regions of max power output, which it should be if this was a drag racing only type of car. A solution is that case is slicks). The only possible side effect is high EGT. So Run an EGT probe and be prepared to install a water injection system at any instant to help control EGT. I would never run a car on any kind of race track without a 100% distilled water injection apparatus, if it was really a performance application (higher than "expected" output from an engine) without severe monitoring because EGT and other temps tend to get out of control, especially when all of the components are very well insulated as proper (thinking about turbos with blankets ontop of blankets).
There are other solutions besides reducing timing. Better tires come to mind. Boost reduction limiter (if the car is turbo turn down or control the boost pressure). Alternative gearing is probably your best option since it would also correct the space between 2nd and 3rd where your car "can't decide" when it should in reality most likely be in third. So if the rear gear is 3.42 right now for example, you might want to calculate a 3.73, to help you into 3rd for those regions where you race more. As an aside, water injection also reduces power output.
What I think he is trying to say is, there is a timing map. If you reduce the numbers in the timing map, the torque output of the engine will decrease in that region. This can bandaid the traction issue (unless it is occuring in regions of max power output, which it should be if this was a drag racing only type of car. A solution is that case is slicks). The only possible side effect is high EGT. So Run an EGT probe and be prepared to install a water injection system at any instant to help control EGT. I would never run a car on any kind of race track without a 100% distilled water injection apparatus, if it was really a performance application (higher than "expected" output from an engine) without severe monitoring because EGT and other temps tend to get out of control, especially when all of the components are very well insulated as proper (thinking about turbos with blankets ontop of blankets).
There are other solutions besides reducing timing. Better tires come to mind. Boost reduction limiter (if the car is turbo turn down or control the boost pressure). Alternative gearing is probably your best option since it would also correct the space between 2nd and 3rd where your car "can't decide" when it should in reality most likely be in third. So if the rear gear is 3.42 right now for example, you might want to calculate a 3.73, to help you into 3rd for those regions where you race more. As an aside, water injection also reduces power output.
08-15-2017, 08:14 AM
#13
Idk if i would go that far. But a set of r compound tires would do wonders. Even ballast in the back helps.
Are you dbw or cable? There are different cams on the tb for cable. A slower one may help you modulate the power better.
Stiffer bars to keep the inside rear from unlaoding might help to.
Are you dbw or cable? There are different cams on the tb for cable. A slower one may help you modulate the power better.
Stiffer bars to keep the inside rear from unlaoding might help to.
I don't really want to mess with ballast because it just has a slight amount of understeer and I want to keep it that way so it is controllable to drive.
I am drive by cable, it has a stock Silverado throttle body, are there different throttle bodies that have a slower cam?
Suspension is pretty well sorted, stiff coilovers and sway bars.
Last edited by Bowtie316; 08-15-2017 at 08:40 AM.
08-15-2017, 08:28 AM
#15
TECH Senior Member
I'm surprised the rear stays as well-planted as it does, considering it's a pickup. But then, maybe a full tank of fuel in the bed helps! Sounds like you were never really on it too hard either. Nice ride!
08-15-2017, 08:34 AM
#16
So you say you were competitive last year?
why is that?
because the truck completed the course in a fairly fast amount of time. That equals speed. And you are going to give up timing = power = speed. So you will go slower.
Timing will limit power. But unless you have a way to limit timing only in a wheel spin condition - aka traction control - you will be giving up power at all times.
Instead of looking at timing to control traction, look at your right foot. Seriously. Learn You car, learn its limits.
why is that?
because the truck completed the course in a fairly fast amount of time. That equals speed. And you are going to give up timing = power = speed. So you will go slower.
Timing will limit power. But unless you have a way to limit timing only in a wheel spin condition - aka traction control - you will be giving up power at all times.
Instead of looking at timing to control traction, look at your right foot. Seriously. Learn You car, learn its limits.
08-15-2017, 08:48 AM
#17
Yeah I was really ******* it because the parking lot was slick old asphalt and tires are not road race slicks.
Truck weighed 2960 with 20 gallons of gas.
So you say you were competitive last year?
why is that?
because the truck completed the course in a fairly fast amount of time. That equals speed. And you are going to give up timing = power = speed. So you will go slower.
Timing will limit power. But unless you have a way to limit timing only in a wheel spin condition - aka traction control - you will be giving up power at all times.
Instead of looking at timing to control traction, look at your right foot. Seriously. Learn You car, learn its limits.
why is that?
because the truck completed the course in a fairly fast amount of time. That equals speed. And you are going to give up timing = power = speed. So you will go slower.
Timing will limit power. But unless you have a way to limit timing only in a wheel spin condition - aka traction control - you will be giving up power at all times.
Instead of looking at timing to control traction, look at your right foot. Seriously. Learn You car, learn its limits.
Autocross isn't about power, the mini coopers destroy vettes and such with ease, I'm just trying to soften the hit in second so I will have a more responsive but overall less powerful delivery.
"Learn your car", lol. I beat on this thing constantly, but its only once a year that I get to put it on an autocross course to "learn' it.
08-15-2017, 08:56 AM
#18
I've reduced WOT timing for cars running index classes to slow them down. Once you get to about 18-19 degrees lowering it more seems to cause other problems and not help too much. From there when we need to slow them down more we use an adjustable throttle stop. Of course this is on a cable throttle body.
08-15-2017, 09:44 AM
#20
Restricted User
I managed to get an arduino to read the factory ABS sensors on my C4 corvette.
With a tiny bit of math, it will force a table switch on microsquirt and change to a completely different timing table for a super quick and easy $14 timing based traction control.
Having it do the exact same thing with the IAT switch trick on a stock PCM would be cake, assuming the truck has at least rear ABS sensors, and either front ABS sensors or a working electric speedo signal somewhere.
With a tiny bit of math, it will force a table switch on microsquirt and change to a completely different timing table for a super quick and easy $14 timing based traction control.
Having it do the exact same thing with the IAT switch trick on a stock PCM would be cake, assuming the truck has at least rear ABS sensors, and either front ABS sensors or a working electric speedo signal somewhere.