BOWTIE

OK, I know this topic has been beat to death, but I could not find the information I was looking for so here it goes. I was under the impression that the stock subs were dual 4 ohm voice coils that were wired in parallel resulting in a 2 ohm load. So I have ordered a set of Image Dynamics 2 ohm 6 1/2 midbass speakers to replace them with. Only now I am finding that each 4 ohm voice coil appears to be driven from a seperate circuit from the amp. I had originally planned to just gang both positives and both negatives together and connect them to the 2 ohm speaker, but now I am afraid that will not work; that is unless these are really the same circuit just split apart prior to exiting the amp. Since there are no 6 1/2" 4 ohm DVC subs available, what would be the best option? Also, if you were to connect the speaker wires from each of the original DVC leads and then connected them to a SVC would that work, and effectively give you twice the wattage as just using one set of the speaker leads. Also, if I can connect both voice coil feeds together and drive a single voice coil, would it be better to run a 4 ohm speaker or an 8 ohm speaker. Lastly, have any other 6.5" sub options surfaced other than the 4 and 8 ohm JL Audio subs?

ALPINE

You've got the idea, it will "work" but as I'm sure you've heard it is the hard way to go. A line converter and a small amp would not only be simpler but more reliable in the wiring process. I apologize in advance if this is something you've heard a thousand times before. I've just been there, done that...
-JC

HiTechGent

I think it will work just fine. Even though the 2 voice coils from the stock speaker go to seperate outputs on the amplifier, I just can't see any practical arrangement electrically other than those being 2 balanced parallel outputs. To the amp, ganging the wires and connecting them to a single 2-ohm voice coil should look the same electrically as connecting them to 2 seperate 4-ohm voice coils.

The line-level converters and 2nd amp is not a bad idea. I'd just try the simpler option first and see how they sound.

joe_kool315

as long as your assumption is correct. There have been alot of assumptions where the Sail panel speakers are concerned. These have not been helped by the fact that the service manuals actually show 1 4 ohm and 1 2ohm voice coil in the sail panel speaker which we all agree is wrong (I think anyway ) but the controversy come in once the 2 seprate channels go inside the AMP. are they indeed set up like a 2 channel amp for each speaker? is it bridged internally? is is some where in betewwn using a 2nd or 3rd order filtering between the 2? Know one but monsoon really knows right now, that I've run into, and Monsoon seems to be unavailable via website or phone to contact to resolve the matter.

"IF" it is bridged internally and you hook up the four wires pos to pos to a 2 ohm speaker your effectively dropped the load on the amp to 1 ohm which I'd be willing to bet a bowl of golden grams that the amp is not 1 ohm stable. This is becouse it's ALREADY bridged internally there for splits the 2ohm load seen from the speaker across the 2 internally bridged channels


"IF" it's 2 seperate channels and you hook it up pos to pos neg to neg (effictively bridging it externally) you're still taking a 2 ohm speaker effectively dropping the load on the amp to 1 ohm see above for golden grams bet

"IF" you do either of the above except go from pos of speaker to pos of 1 channel neg of same channel to pos of 2nd channel and neg of second channel to neg of speaker you would effectively (in theroy) end up with a 2 ohm load ...I think ... again this is dependant on the internal makeup of the monsoon amp that know one "really" knows right now

"IF" it's something inbetween with some sort of filter or other electronic set up between the 2 channels ... well that's anybody's guess untill someone is able to get in touch with Monsoon and get it from the horses mouth exactly what's going on inside that critter.

You can hook it up and run it. worse case the amp craps out and then you'll have to do the seperate amp for them and your where you would have been anyway if you chose to go with a seperate amp (only now you might have to get a 4 or 6 channel amp if the front channel mids blow in the monsoon amp and the rear fill mids blow, or just not use the rear fill at all )

now all this being said ... I have taken a speaker (single vioce coil) to my car and hooked it up every which way and (to me) it didn't "sound" louder or better in one configuration compaired to any of the others. What does that mean ... heck I don't know ... one of or both the channels could be bad or partially bad on my amp (both did play music individually but no louder or quiter than bridged or in searis with the 2 channels). both of my monsoon speakers are rattel traps (meaning voice coil is dammaged some how or one is blown and no tthe other as with one of mine for sure) so I don't want to take any configuration information with them so ... hook it up how you want ... live on the edge be prepaired to add an amp down the road ... or that afternoon if things go bad though

SICK WS 6

iTrader: (7)

You're assuming a single channel for each speaker, right?
If you parallel two 4 ohm voice coils the amp will see 2 ohms.
If you're using a 2 ohm speaker (the CX62) to begin with, why wouldn't you just use one set of the leads to hook the speaker up with? Then you've got your 2 ohm load at the amp again. The other set of leads gets tied up.

joe_kool315, when you say you hooked a single coil speaker up in your car...
Did you use a 2 ohm sub out of a camaro? Or was it some random 4 ohm speaker?

joe_kool315

a 4 ohm SVC speaker. I didn't wanna attempt it with a 2 ohm speaker (espicially bridging internal or external) and chance droping it to a 1 ohm load untill I'm ready to go the amp route.

Which I'll be doing soon to my JL vantage box in the drivers cubby and pr of 6W0's in the sail panel area then I'll be upgrading the seprates in the front down the road and getting some good 4" mid's for the rear and putting in a 4 ch amp and nixing the monsoon stuff totally ... well except the head unit ... for a while anyway ... uncle sugar's tight on the $$$ for us enlisted guys

joe_kool315

[QUOTE=SICK WS 6]You're assuming a single channel for each speaker, right?
If you parallel two 4 ohm voice coils the amp will see 2 ohms.
If you're using a 2 ohm speaker (the CX62) to begin with, why wouldn't you just use one set of the leads to hook the speaker up with? Then you've got your 2 ohm load at the amp again. The other set of leads gets tied up.
QUOTE]

other wise if you use all 4 you could end up with a 1 ohm load

HiTechGent

Umm. no. I'm suggesting splicing these two 4-ohm outputs, assentially. the amp would see 2-ohms accross 2 outputs. This would look like two 4-ohm speakers in parallel (one across each output). The total load would still be 2-ohms not 1-ohm. This assumes that the two outputs are in phase and at nearly the same amplitude. I believe this is a safe assumption, because the stock speaker is DVC. Any other way would seriously compromise performance. If the signals were out of phase, the 2 coils would be working against each other. If the amplitude were different, one coil would be driven harder than the other.

BOWTIE

HitechGent, is thinking along the same path I am or was. I thought the stock DVC sub was powered by one channel with the load split abd the dual 4 ohm voice coils driven in parallel resulting in a 2 ohm load. However, later I noticed it actually had 2 complete sets of wires coming to the speaker from the amp and according to the wire diagrams i have seen each set of wires is indicated to be a seperate circuit. However, part of me wonders if it is trually one circuit that was split prior to exiting the amp then connected to the sub via 2 sets of wires. I guess I will measure the resistance between the 2 positive and negative leads and if they measure 0 ohms or very little ohms, I will just go ahead and splice them together and give it a shot. If I have infinent resistance or considerable resistance then I guess it will be back to the drawing board. Then I just have to wonder if these cx62's have a wide enough freq response to replace the woofers in my doors.

joe_kool315

And thus in lies the controversy... as I said in my original post, some believe it's one channel split inside the amp with 4 lines going to the separate coils. Some believe its' 2 separate channels (same phase same amplitude just as running any other 2 channel amp across a DVC speaker) and hooked up that way.

I put it this way. GM (or monsoon who ever designed the system)... already having an amp putting out a channel capable of a 2 ohm load and a SVC 2 ohm driver in the camaro ... WHY would they just split that same signal inside the amp and divide it over 2 4 ohm voice coils basically achieving the same thing (assuming they are split parallel)

I've done this ... although not a truly effective way of definitively showing separation or otherwise as a true resistance can only be measured "out of circuit" I measured 7-20 ish ohms between the pos and neg of both "channels" separately. Pos to pos and neg to neg was 800K ohms + which would lead one to believe most/all current is going to flow in the "separate" channels BUT again ... that is an in circuit measurement and is anything but definitive.

I have gone rounds with a few folks that have tried to essentially say that that I was FOS but that’s what happens as far as MY systems concerned. until monsoon comes back online I guess no one will truly know unless some electronics engineer is willing to reverse-engineer their amp and actually see what's going on inside. I'll be dumping most of my system soon and the rest of it down the road unless monsoon chimes in and there’s something magical going on inside their amp I can't live without.

SICK WS 6

iTrader: (7)

So you want to run to separate channels to the same voice coil on the same speaker?
Is this even safe?
Wouldn't this only work is these 2 outputs aren't the balanced parallel outputs you think they may be? If they are parallel outputs from the amp, wouldn't the amp see a 1 ohm load?
I'm not real sure on this....

joe_kool315

I think some folks may be getting lost in their explinations ... if it were 2 output and you hook it to the 1 2 ohm speaker ... (bridging them )... it would be 1 ohm seen by the output device. if it's 1 output with 4 wires being split off the the 2 4 ohm voice coils the output device will see a 2 ohm load ... that same output device withthe 4 wires coming off going to 1 2 ohm voice coil would still see 2 ohms becouse your essentially making the 4 wires "seem" like their just 2 wires to the output device becouse there's only 1 "load" now. But again you have the question of why would they do it this way. what benifet would there be to have a 4 ohm DVC with the exact same power as a SVC 2ohm speaker? why would they have 2 diffrent configurations to achieve the "same" level of sound or performance. One would think that GM would have wanted a noticable diffrence between the 2 configurations (chevy / pontiac) Pontiac always gets "a little something extra" that you pay for on the sticker price of course. But in order for it to ba a "noticable" diffrence there would have to be atleast a 3db diffrence (effectively doubling the power) between the 2 set up's less than that and its' not going to be a perceptable diffrence

SICK WS 6

iTrader: (7)

Since my head is spinning now...
Tell me how the DVC 4 ohm Pontiac speaker would have to be hooked up at the amp in order to have twice the output of the 2 ohm SVC Camaro speaker?

joe_kool315

"IF" the amp in the pontiac had 2 channels with the same output as the one for the chevy. or they do some kind of bridging internally to drop ohms ... there an infanate number of options available to then the easiest of which it to use a more powerful amp .. they are after all 2 seperate part #'s which would lead one to believe they are diffrent amps.

point is that for it to basically be hooked up identically "electrically" (as was being suggested) wouldn't make any sence at all. in fact it would be counter productive to have 2 products that esentially to the same job made by the same manufacturer. not to mention the weight of the 4 wires vs the 2 wires run throughout the car (nominal as it may be sports car designers would be concious of that one would think)

second point was that no one is really going to know till monsoon resurfaces AND that's providing they are willing to disclose that sort of information to the general public.

joe_kool315

and I didn't say that it DID have 3db over the camaro ... I just said that would be the only thing that made sence to ME as to why they would do it diffrently.

otherwise ... why do it diffrent?

SICK WS 6

iTrader: (7)

Wonderful.



Agreed.