Cheatin' Chad

iTrader: (3)

I have been chasing a front end "clunk" in my 2000 GTP for a few weeks now.
I have had the noise for over a year now. I figured it was a normal noise considering how the roads around here and I just flat got used to it. Well I have owned my T/A for a few months now and it sounds much better around town than the GTP. I checked the strut tower brace rod ends and lubed them. One of them is pretty sticky but I don't see it causing the noise.So I finally got off my *** and had a look under the car.

I figured since I was going to be pulling things apart to do a visual I might as well replace my front anti-sway bar with a GMPP HD piece . Done, it arrived last friday.New bar which I believe is around 34mm,end links, and rubber bushings.

Anyway, I finally get the ES poly bushings off of my stock awaybar and see that they are all chewed up. I greased these bushings with MOBIL 1 synthetic grease for the first two years of use and Redline grease over the last 6-7months. I greased these bushings at least every 3 thousand miles(oil changes and routing inspections). The car currently has 41k on it.The bushings were installed around 1k. It looks like the bar was binding in the bushing instead of sliding. Yeah, I had heard that's what happens with poly but I assumed the constant greasing would deal with that.It didn't.

I personally think these bushings are junk and will not be using them again if I can help it. They are chewed up enough to allow the swaybar to move around in the bushings. I believe (hope) this was the source of my noise. Unfortunately the new bushings do not fit into the existing ES mounts. I threw the originals away after a year of hanging onto them . I will go to a dealer tomorrow and see if I can order another set of originals so I can get this thing buttoned up.

Ya'know the more I deal with POLY bushings the less I like them. I am now thinking they are a bad material for the majority of applications they are made for.

I'll post pics when I can so you guys can see what happened to them.

thanks

sawedoff

iTrader: (3)

Yes, polyurethane has it's problems. Grassroots Motorsports Magazine has done several articles on why poly isn't the preferred bushing material. I just installed a larger rear swaybar on my 1LE and used the hard durometer rubber bushings that go with the 1LE package. My SVO Mustang has polyurethane bushings that were on it, from way back when. They are completely collapsed, but then again any bushing by now, would be deteriorated.

jRaskell

iTrader: (1)

Oil and regular grease are NOT the proper lubes to use with poly bushings. Just put a drop of oil on any polyeurethane bushing and you'll see it bead up like it was on wax paper. Any petrol based product will have that affect on poly bushings, and it's counterproductive from a lubricating point of view. The bushing will be poorly coated, and as a result poorly lubricated.

The only lubes you should use with poly are either white lithium grease or powdered graphite. Doesn't matter how high quality your oil or petrol based grease is, they just aren't compatible with polyeurethane. The problem isn't the material, it's what you're trying to lube it with. Of course, if you're dead set on using these kinds of lubes, then you will have to use a rubber based bushing for the best results.

A BAD T/A

FWIW, here's the part # for the sway bar supports (same on both sides) 10259206. About $10 each.
I know the # 'cause I just found the cause of the T/As front end clunk. Broken support. AND, it tore the snot out of the upper rod ends (poly) bushings.

Cheatin' Chad

iTrader: (3)

A BAD T/A: That's classic. No one in the GP forum I visit answered my part number question. You did it in an LS1 forum. That's why I come here
The parts guy at the local Pontiac dealer was able to pull up a microfiche screen for me to find the part. I ordered them today at $6.70 a piece. Should be here tomorrow morning thankfully.

jRaskell : I appreciate your point of view on the subject.
Questions for you:
If these bushings are not supposed to be lubed with grease (synthetic or petroleum) why do they include standard grease zerks with them?
Why is there no mention of this in the literature that I received from ES? Why do most polyurethane bushings come with silicone based grease?
Why does ES recommend Formula 5 prelube and sell it when it is silicone based and contains teflon?

thanks!

jRaskell

iTrader: (1)

I can't attest to why ES does anything because I've never bought anything from ES. However, all the parts I have purchased from say, Spohn, LG, and Stranos have indeed come with lithium grease. In fact, my grease gun has a half full tube of lithium grease in it that I purchased from Spohn a few years ago. And in 8 years of driving F-bodies and using poly bushings, I've had very few problems with them. (I overtightened a set of swaybar endlinks once and wound up crushing the bushings. Nasty rattling only a few weeks later, but that was entirely my fault)

And silicone grease is not a petroleum based grease. In fact, many silicone based products use urethane (ethyl carbamate) as the tackifying agent (what helps make the grease stick to surfaces for optimal lubrication). My statements were specifically regarding petroleum based products.

And I would have to guess that most bushing kits use standard grease fittings (assuming that's what you mean by zerks), because you can buy lithium (and probably silcone based) greases in gun tubes (as I said, I have one myself). It's the easiest and most readily available method to provide (even if the tubes are not as readily available for non-petrol based greases), and it's pretty much THE standard. So why wouldn't they use them?

RedlineLS1

iTrader: (5)

Sorry to change the subject but i was just wondering where would i find the best kind of grease for some poly bushings? I am about to install some and was reading this and now i am a little confused on which would be the best.

Cheatin' Chad

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the reply.
I understand silicone has nothing to do with petroleum
My point was:If lithium and graphite are the only acceptable lubes for poly bushings why does the largest manufacturer of poly bushings include silicone grease?

I figured lithium grease would be available in tubes but have never bought any myself. Thanks for that information.

It seems you may have taken my questions to be some sort of attack. I was seeking information that's all.

BTW: What do you mean by "crushed" the bushing? Did you overtorque until the bushing split or what?

thanks

jRaskell

iTrader: (1)

I overtorqued and the bushes split a few weeks later after several spirited driving sessions. In fact, one of the end link bushings was completely missing, causing the rattling and front end sway that prompted me to investigate and discover the problem.

And my statement that you should only be using lithium or graphite based lubes was a little erroneous in that I meant of the three originally being discussed, they are the only ones. To be less specific, you shouldn't be using any petrol based products, lithium and graphite to my knowledge are perfectly acceptable, and other synthetics may be fine as well. I have no experience using silicone based lubes myself, but it was not my intention to claim they shouldn't be used with poly bushings. It was only my intent to say petroleum based lubes shouldn't be used with poly bushings.

Cheatin' Chad

iTrader: (3)

Again thanks for the information.
How do _you_ determine how much to tighten endlinks? Is there a rule of thumb or a specific torque? I have always tightened my endlinks until the bushings are compressed and there is no freeplay between the bushings.

Is there a difference between the preload that should be placed on poly bushing endlinks and rubber in your opinion?

thanks

BrostalSS

I changed out my entire car on my 3rd gen with energy suspension bushings.

That was about 5 or 6 years ago and i've had to change the end links once due to over tightening.

This change out of bushings was the best thing I could have done handling wise for my 3rd gen and I will make this change out in my SS in a short time.

Oh yeah and I still have the stock lower control arms, panhard bar and torque arm. My 3rd gen sticks like glue on the twisties.

dgmiller

iTrader: (1)

The instructions that came with my ES sets recommended torquing the end links to 18 lb-ft.