Alignment Question: Were these A-holes right?
08-24-2010, 03:50 PM
#1
Alignment Question: Were these A-holes right? Long story, finished with cliffs notes!
This spring I got a lifetime alignment from Firestone. Well, after installing my Koni's I figured an alignment would be useful again. After searching for a while, I decided on about -1.0 degree of camber, 4-5 degrees of caster, and 0.0 toe (if my suspension allows it).
Got to Firestone this morning, and the guy was a dink off the bat. He said I didn't have the alignment, just a check (got that cleared up), etc. Anyways, I said I wanted some different specifications than just stock, and he said he'd try but sometimes the computer wont let him
I told him I'd like about -.5 or about -.75 degrees of camber, hoping that the 'computer' would allow it (and check to see if I wanted more as I can always get another alignment). Right away it goes sorta like:
Guy: "Oh no man, you're going to chew up your tires like crazy"
Me: "Ummm....ok? I see a lot of people running this with good results"
G: "You're going to break your ball joints, and expect about 1000 miles out of your expensive tires"
Next thing you know, a highway patrol cop walks in and joins the conversation.
Cop: "Are you driving on the street or the track? If it's street, there's no reason for negative camber. You're going to be driving on about only 2" of your tires on the highway"
I inform them that one person who gave me the camber advice was none other than Sam Strano, and the only comment they had for him is that he's thinking strictly race, even though I explain he helps people every day with street suspensions and I told him it was for a mostly street car.
Anyways, I didn't think that their BS was true, and I said that he could do what he wanted to do, as I can always come back in the next day and get someone else to do it for me. I went for breakfast and came back, and the cop was still there and started talking to me about how it could wreck my tires and blah blah blah, and says that any alignment that I talked about was stupid. After treating me like a dumb high schooler, I inform him that I'm a junior at UW Madison in mechanical engineering, a member of ASME, and that I worked with fabrication in the powertrain group of the Wisconsin Racing team (multiple time world champions in SAE Formula!!!!). He pretty much finished with "It's your car" and I inform him that he's correct.
Long story short, some guys said that even -.5 degrees of negative camber would turn my tires into **** within 1000 miles or so.
The alignment I got was:
LF: camber .2 degrees
caster 4.8 degrees
toe 0 degrees
RF: camber .5 degrees (!!!!)
caster 4.6 degrees
toe -.01 degrees
The caster and toe seem right (right?) but the camber is definitely not for performance. Should I not worry and tell them to change it, or should I listen and leave it as is. BTW, it's a street car, but I love my corners!
This spring I got a lifetime alignment from Firestone. Well, after installing my Koni's I figured an alignment would be useful again. After searching for a while, I decided on about -1.0 degree of camber, 4-5 degrees of caster, and 0.0 toe (if my suspension allows it).
Got to Firestone this morning, and the guy was a dink off the bat. He said I didn't have the alignment, just a check (got that cleared up), etc. Anyways, I said I wanted some different specifications than just stock, and he said he'd try but sometimes the computer wont let him
I told him I'd like about -.5 or about -.75 degrees of camber, hoping that the 'computer' would allow it (and check to see if I wanted more as I can always get another alignment). Right away it goes sorta like:
Guy: "Oh no man, you're going to chew up your tires like crazy"
Me: "Ummm....ok? I see a lot of people running this with good results"
G: "You're going to break your ball joints, and expect about 1000 miles out of your expensive tires"
Next thing you know, a highway patrol cop walks in and joins the conversation.
Cop: "Are you driving on the street or the track? If it's street, there's no reason for negative camber. You're going to be driving on about only 2" of your tires on the highway"
I inform them that one person who gave me the camber advice was none other than Sam Strano, and the only comment they had for him is that he's thinking strictly race, even though I explain he helps people every day with street suspensions and I told him it was for a mostly street car.
Anyways, I didn't think that their BS was true, and I said that he could do what he wanted to do, as I can always come back in the next day and get someone else to do it for me. I went for breakfast and came back, and the cop was still there and started talking to me about how it could wreck my tires and blah blah blah, and says that any alignment that I talked about was stupid. After treating me like a dumb high schooler, I inform him that I'm a junior at UW Madison in mechanical engineering, a member of ASME, and that I worked with fabrication in the powertrain group of the Wisconsin Racing team (multiple time world champions in SAE Formula!!!!). He pretty much finished with "It's your car" and I inform him that he's correct.
Long story short, some guys said that even -.5 degrees of negative camber would turn my tires into **** within 1000 miles or so.
The alignment I got was:
LF: camber .2 degrees
caster 4.8 degrees
toe 0 degrees
RF: camber .5 degrees (!!!!)
caster 4.6 degrees
toe -.01 degrees
The caster and toe seem right (right?) but the camber is definitely not for performance. Should I not worry and tell them to change it, or should I listen and leave it as is. BTW, it's a street car, but I love my corners!
08-24-2010, 04:04 PM
#2
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theyre full of ****. no way will you be driving on 2 inches of tire, and no way will you chew them up in 1000 miles. they have no idea what theyre talking about.
factory camber is +1. street/autox is perfectly safe and usable with -.5 to -1. the toe can be around 0 for a performance street setup, but 1/16 in or out isnt going to kill you. youre literally splitting hairs. the caster on your car is alright also.
the alignment isnt bad right now, but its not a performance alignment, and if you really want to (and they dont charge you again), take it back and tell them the specs you want. i wouldnt bother paying for another one right now.
i got these specs a few years ago online, and this is what i go by:
Camber Caster Toe
Factory +1 ---- +3 ---- .15 in
Street/autox -.5 to -1 ---- +4-5 ---- 0.0
autox/track -1.5 to 2+ ---- +4-5 ---- 1/16 out
the layout didnt work well, but first set of numbers is camber, second caster, third toe
factory camber is +1. street/autox is perfectly safe and usable with -.5 to -1. the toe can be around 0 for a performance street setup, but 1/16 in or out isnt going to kill you. youre literally splitting hairs. the caster on your car is alright also.
the alignment isnt bad right now, but its not a performance alignment, and if you really want to (and they dont charge you again), take it back and tell them the specs you want. i wouldnt bother paying for another one right now.
i got these specs a few years ago online, and this is what i go by:
Camber Caster Toe
Factory +1 ---- +3 ---- .15 in
Street/autox -.5 to -1 ---- +4-5 ---- 0.0
autox/track -1.5 to 2+ ---- +4-5 ---- 1/16 out
the layout didnt work well, but first set of numbers is camber, second caster, third toe
08-24-2010, 04:05 PM
#3
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Your first mistake was taking your car to firestone.......
I don't know what alignment system they have but it is simple to change specs etc. The only thing they were right about was that the more negative camber you have the more your tires will wear.
If I were the guy at the shop I would have just set the alignment how you wanted and sent it out the door. it's not like alignments are hard on these cars if you have the right tool. in fact it's a piece of cake really.
Honestly though unless you are auto-crossing or something similar with super sticky tires it's not really going to make that much of a difference whether camber is -1.0 or -0.2
I don't know what alignment system they have but it is simple to change specs etc. The only thing they were right about was that the more negative camber you have the more your tires will wear.
If I were the guy at the shop I would have just set the alignment how you wanted and sent it out the door. it's not like alignments are hard on these cars if you have the right tool. in fact it's a piece of cake really.
Honestly though unless you are auto-crossing or something similar with super sticky tires it's not really going to make that much of a difference whether camber is -1.0 or -0.2
08-24-2010, 05:19 PM
#5
Well, I have the lifetime alignment, so anytime I want it done I can take the car in and they realign it for free. I'll leave it for now, but if I get a chance I'll take it back and just say put it at -.5 or -1 (somewhere in the middle) and leave it. I've heard of people on here running at -1 or -1.5 and getting 30k out of their tires, it's just hard to quote facts from a message board from some people.
Thanks for the quick reply tho!
Thanks for the quick reply tho!
08-24-2010, 06:28 PM
#6
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I'm running -0.75 camber, +5* caster, and 0 toe and got 30K miles out of my crappy Kumho 712s (still had about 5-7K of life remaining) before I upgraded to 18" Z06 wheels and BFG tires. The performance alignment shop I brought my car to actually recommended those aggressive numbers for a street car with as many suspension mods as mine (konis, ground controls coilovers, 35/21 sway bars, etc.)
Last edited by vjo90rs8; 08-24-2010 at 09:18 PM.
08-24-2010, 08:53 PM
#7
IMO, stay away from that shop just for the fact they played you for a fool!
FYI, custom anything and chain-stores just don't mix! You need to find shop that does performance alignments on lowered cars, ask around and I'm sure someone will point you to the right shop in your area.
FYI, custom anything and chain-stores just don't mix! You need to find shop that does performance alignments on lowered cars, ask around and I'm sure someone will point you to the right shop in your area.
Last edited by 99Bluz28; 08-24-2010 at 08:59 PM.
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08-24-2010, 11:41 PM
#8
Long story, finished with cliffs notes!
This spring I got a lifetime alignment from Firestone. Well, after installing my Koni's I figured an alignment would be useful again. After searching for a while, I decided on about -1.0 degree of camber, 4-5 degrees of caster, and 0.0 toe (if my suspension allows it).
Got to Firestone this morning, and the guy was a dink off the bat. He said I didn't have the alignment, just a check (got that cleared up), etc. Anyways, I said I wanted some different specifications than just stock, and he said he'd try but sometimes the computer wont let him
I told him I'd like about -.5 or about -.75 degrees of camber, hoping that the 'computer' would allow it (and check to see if I wanted more as I can always get another alignment). Right away it goes sorta like:
Guy: "Oh no man, you're going to chew up your tires like crazy"
Me: "Ummm....ok? I see a lot of people running this with good results"
G: "You're going to break your ball joints, and expect about 1000 miles out of your expensive tires"
Next thing you know, a highway patrol cop walks in and joins the conversation.
Cop: "Are you driving on the street or the track? If it's street, there's no reason for negative camber. You're going to be driving on about only 2" of your tires on the highway"
I inform them that one person who gave me the camber advice was none other than Sam Strano, and the only comment they had for him is that he's thinking strictly race, even though I explain he helps people every day with street suspensions and I told him it was for a mostly street car.
Anyways, I didn't think that their BS was true, and I said that he could do what he wanted to do, as I can always come back in the next day and get someone else to do it for me. I went for breakfast and came back, and the cop was still there and started talking to me about how it could wreck my tires and blah blah blah, and says that any alignment that I talked about was stupid. After treating me like a dumb high schooler, I inform him that I'm a junior at UW Madison in mechanical engineering, a member of ASME, and that I worked with fabrication in the powertrain group of the Wisconsin Racing team (multiple time world champions in SAE Formula!!!!). He pretty much finished with "It's your car" and I inform him that he's correct.
Long story short, some guys said that even -.5 degrees of negative camber would turn my tires into **** within 1000 miles or so.
The alignment I got was:
LF: camber .2 degrees
caster 4.8 degrees
toe 0 degrees
RF: camber .5 degrees (!!!!)
caster 4.6 degrees
toe -.01 degrees
The caster and toe seem right (right?) but the camber is definitely not for performance. Should I not worry and tell them to change it, or should I listen and leave it as is. BTW, it's a street car, but I love my corners!
This spring I got a lifetime alignment from Firestone. Well, after installing my Koni's I figured an alignment would be useful again. After searching for a while, I decided on about -1.0 degree of camber, 4-5 degrees of caster, and 0.0 toe (if my suspension allows it).
Got to Firestone this morning, and the guy was a dink off the bat. He said I didn't have the alignment, just a check (got that cleared up), etc. Anyways, I said I wanted some different specifications than just stock, and he said he'd try but sometimes the computer wont let him
I told him I'd like about -.5 or about -.75 degrees of camber, hoping that the 'computer' would allow it (and check to see if I wanted more as I can always get another alignment). Right away it goes sorta like:
Guy: "Oh no man, you're going to chew up your tires like crazy"
Me: "Ummm....ok? I see a lot of people running this with good results"
G: "You're going to break your ball joints, and expect about 1000 miles out of your expensive tires"
Next thing you know, a highway patrol cop walks in and joins the conversation.
Cop: "Are you driving on the street or the track? If it's street, there's no reason for negative camber. You're going to be driving on about only 2" of your tires on the highway"
I inform them that one person who gave me the camber advice was none other than Sam Strano, and the only comment they had for him is that he's thinking strictly race, even though I explain he helps people every day with street suspensions and I told him it was for a mostly street car.
Anyways, I didn't think that their BS was true, and I said that he could do what he wanted to do, as I can always come back in the next day and get someone else to do it for me. I went for breakfast and came back, and the cop was still there and started talking to me about how it could wreck my tires and blah blah blah, and says that any alignment that I talked about was stupid. After treating me like a dumb high schooler, I inform him that I'm a junior at UW Madison in mechanical engineering, a member of ASME, and that I worked with fabrication in the powertrain group of the Wisconsin Racing team (multiple time world champions in SAE Formula!!!!). He pretty much finished with "It's your car" and I inform him that he's correct.
Long story short, some guys said that even -.5 degrees of negative camber would turn my tires into **** within 1000 miles or so.
The alignment I got was:
LF: camber .2 degrees
caster 4.8 degrees
toe 0 degrees
RF: camber .5 degrees (!!!!)
caster 4.6 degrees
toe -.01 degrees
The caster and toe seem right (right?) but the camber is definitely not for performance. Should I not worry and tell them to change it, or should I listen and leave it as is. BTW, it's a street car, but I love my corners!
I just got done doing an alignment on mine after lowering, my settings below:
L.F camber 0.0 deg
caster 5.5 deg
toe 0.0 deg
R.F camber 0.0 deg
caster 5.5 deg
toe 0.0 deg
I set up the camber this way because this will give me the best tire wear. It might handle better with more neg. camber but it will wear the inner part of the tire quicker than the outer tread unless youre doing a lot of high speed cornering. Then of course some neg. camber would be better. The amount of neg. camber you were wanting will not chew the tires up like these guys were telling you. -.5 deg camber isnt much like -2.0 deg would be a lot.
Now the caster is not within specs but caster isnt a tire wearing angle. More caster will give you better steering stablilty & your steering wheel returns to center easier. Theres a special tool needed to move the bottom of the lower control arm thats placed in different holes for adjusting camber & caster on Fbodys. I didnt have the tool then but I did pick one up. Not sure if the guys at Firestone have this, you can adjust the camber without the tool with a prybar like I did but I had a hard time adjusting caster this way & called it a day.
IMO, stay away from that shop just for the fact they played you for a fool!
FYI, custom anything and chain-stores just don't mix! You need to find shop that does performance alignments on lowered cars, ask around and I'm sure someone will point you to the right shop in your area.
FYI, custom anything and chain-stores just don't mix! You need to find shop that does performance alignments on lowered cars, ask around and I'm sure someone will point you to the right shop in your area.
08-25-2010, 07:11 AM
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Well, I have the lifetime alignment, so anytime I want it done I can take the car in and they realign it for free. I'll leave it for now, but if I get a chance I'll take it back and just say put it at -.5 or -1 (somewhere in the middle) and leave it. I've heard of people on here running at -1 or -1.5 and getting 30k out of their tires, it's just hard to quote facts from a message board from some people.
Thanks for the quick reply tho!
Thanks for the quick reply tho!
i have about -1.5 now. i autox, track, and limited street driving. i have nowhere near the miles on street tires to see any increased wear, but i wouldnt worry in the least about having -1 on the street.
08-25-2010, 07:39 AM
#10
Most alignment shops like that aren't familiar with performance settings like you are trying to achieve.
Next time just tell them you understand what they are saying and are aware of the consequences. If you see the tires wearing more than you like then see if they can take some camber out without effect the caster.
I just aligned my 72 LeMans at 5 degrees of caster on driver, 5.5 degrees on the passenger side and -.75 degree of camber on both sides and this is for street use with light track right now.
Hope that helps,
Ryan
Next time just tell them you understand what they are saying and are aware of the consequences. If you see the tires wearing more than you like then see if they can take some camber out without effect the caster.
I just aligned my 72 LeMans at 5 degrees of caster on driver, 5.5 degrees on the passenger side and -.75 degree of camber on both sides and this is for street use with light track right now.
Hope that helps,
Ryan
08-25-2010, 12:49 PM
#11
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The funny thing is I think lots of cars run about -.5 stock anyway from the factory 
You'll find that most people in this world think they are experts on everything. Not many people are willing to admit they don't know. It's pretty sad. The car world is especially sad in this case.. everyone thinks they are an expert on everything. Guys become professional race car drivers if they did a donut in their car once or twice... others become experts when they went to a car meet and Johnny Mullet told them that the K&N tornado increased their horsepower by 20
You'll find that most people in this world think they are experts on everything. Not many people are willing to admit they don't know. It's pretty sad. The car world is especially sad in this case.. everyone thinks they are an expert on everything. Guys become professional race car drivers if they did a donut in their car once or twice... others become experts when they went to a car meet and Johnny Mullet told them that the K&N tornado increased their horsepower by 20
08-25-2010, 04:13 PM
#12
Johnny Mullet... that's a good one I have to remember that!
stock spec on a new Mustang (for reference) is -.75, +/- .75.
I run way more than -1 all the time, and would even if i didn't autox (though not as much as I run now).
stock spec on a new Mustang (for reference) is -.75, +/- .75.
I run way more than -1 all the time, and would even if i didn't autox (though not as much as I run now).
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08-25-2010, 04:14 PM
#13
Thanks for more feedback. I know that these types of shops aren't for performance, but there's two Firestones in our area, and the one that I originally got tires was awsome. The guy that helped with my car came back saying "nice stainless brake lines" (not that that makes anyone an expert, lol) and said that he'd get me the negative camber. After installing the shocks, I went to another shop because they said they didn't have a tool to finish the alignment (must have been caster, lol). Next time I'll tell them what I want and if they tell me otherwise, I'll direct them here!
As far as the negative camber on stock vehicles, I think one of them mentioned that that's only on imports, lol, and I was told that the negative camber, much like the cops go kart, will destroy your tires. It almost sounded like he compared the weight of my car with his Crown Vic also....
I'm going to make a call and tell the other store to get that tool, that way it's a one stop shop for me!
As far as the negative camber on stock vehicles, I think one of them mentioned that that's only on imports, lol, and I was told that the negative camber, much like the cops go kart, will destroy your tires. It almost sounded like he compared the weight of my car with his Crown Vic also....
I'm going to make a call and tell the other store to get that tool, that way it's a one stop shop for me!
08-25-2010, 10:23 PM
#14
you are very limited with stock suspension parts when it comes to alignment specs, especially neg. camber. youd be lucky to get a full -1 without slotting the K member. i have adjustable upper A arms to get more camber, and it works well, other then having to disassemble the entire suspension to adjust them.
08-25-2010, 11:01 PM
#15
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lowered 2" around ( how ever after install mos 9" top bolt on TA bracket contacking botton of car it became nessary to rase rear up by 1/4 ")and I have no problem setting +.20 on camber and+ 4.50/5.00 caster with no need to grind any
Johnny
Johnny
08-26-2010, 07:16 AM
#16
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When you put lowering springs on a car(which I am sure 99FormulaM6R did) it will cause it to have more negative camber than it did. I did a 4 wheel alignment on an 06 300 with Eibachs & it was -1.0 to -1.5 on all 4. After I lowered my SS it read about -1.0. I didnt have much problem adjusting that out with the stock LCAs.
08-26-2010, 11:41 AM
#17
IMO, once you're addicted to the increased lateral "G's" of an up-graded suspension you'll find it hard to get even front tire wear, unless you have a little bit of negative camber up front (-.5*to -1*). Myself, I'll wear the outside edges (of the front tires) at a lot faster rate unless I have -camber. 
08-27-2010, 11:02 AM
#18
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I had an alignment guy a while back raise the concern about increased wear on the inside edge of the tires with the -1* Camber I requested. I pointed at my tires which are balding on the outside edge on the stock alignment. I told him that the negative camber was to combat that issue. He didn't argue beyond that.
Last edited by VIP1; 08-27-2010 at 11:08 AM.
08-27-2010, 12:10 PM
#19
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Quick question.... when it comes to our cars, and suspension in general, are you going to trust a guy who wins SCCA championships and designs & builds suspension for our cars, or a guy who's career path has put him in a position as a sales guy for Firestone and is likely a high school drop out...?
Just my .02 and I have a family member who is a master tech at Firestone, so it's not like I'm hating on them.
Just my .02 and I have a family member who is a master tech at Firestone, so it's not like I'm hating on them.
08-27-2010, 03:32 PM
#20
Quick question.... when it comes to our cars, and suspension in general, are you going to trust a guy who wins SCCA championships and designs & builds suspension for our cars, or a guy who's career path has put him in a position as a sales guy for Firestone and is likely a high school drop out...?
This..