LS325ci

iTrader: (3)

I currently own a 01 325ci on cheap Coilovers and stagger tire combo. I feel like the handling is good but could be better. However at this level how far along is a T/A? From what I read m3 handles a lot better than my 3 series but for me the 3 series handling is good enough for my use.

I'm looking to purchase a t/a and would like to know for those who driven both what mods did you do to make it handle well to be just as good or better than e46?

I've never driven a t/a so it's hard for me to decide if it's worth the jump. (I'd have to sell my car first to fund the t/a)

I'd imagine some higher quality Coilovers and sway would do wonders on the t/a but will it compete with the e46 on turns?

Or are we talking about 3-5k plus of suspension mods just to keep up?

JD_AMG

Stock (non-1LE or bilstien option) for the Fbody there is no comparison, the E46 will handle better, however with a simple change over to good shocks (like Koni SA's) the tables will turn really quickly.
There is no getting around the fact that the 3 series has IRS and is a smaller car with shorter overhangs, however the Fbody can easily be setup to out corner a stock or mildly modded one. You need the right setup though, as there are many different suspension pieces, most aimed at drag racing but will be advertised to be ok for handling as well, which is false. Same goes for many coilovers for these cars, the only ones worth mentioning for handling is KW, race bilstien and Penskie. But you don't need coilovers by any means, you can get equal (or better) handling for cheaper with Koni SA's and strano springs.
Basically this setup would make a killer track car, yet drive arguably better than stock on the street:
http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...D=90&ModelID=7
http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...=126&ModelID=7
http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...D=67&ModelID=7
Proven setup, has won multiple national SCCA titles with, no other vendor/setup can claim the same.

brigade24

Depends what you're doing with the car...if you're just going to keep it on the street then it would really be a matter of preference. As JD said, a set of single adjustable konis and strano springs will improve the handling of a T/A...guaranteed!. The engine and transmission in the F-body are very good and can handle a significant amount of abuse. and imo, it is easy to wrench on these cars for most things.

Where BMW shines is in it's chassis dynamics...the engineering of this car is simply superb because of its chassis design. Very well balanced, good aerodynamics and excellent braking system...there are a few weak points in the e46 rear suspension but those can be remedied.

the e46 M3 is awesome, the speed and handling are seemless and very refined however, it is very expensive to service due to its exclusivity with respect to its parts which differ significantly from the e46 3 series...The M3 is an excellent choice if you intend to do lapping/hpde events. it's a wonderful car for that because there is little to no modification required to make it track ready...arrive and drive as they say.

I looked into a e46 330ci/i since they cost less to get into than an F-body and can be modified to achieve M3 performance...but i wasn't sure if cost effectiveness was my objective...

BMR Tech2

iTrader: (5)

Stock for stock, the closest you will get in a T/A is a Ws6 package car. But still, they have a lot of room for improvement. There are many people who autocross or road-race these cars with good success. It all comes down to selecting components that work well together and having a balanced setup. The BMW is very well packaged from the factory, but we have components capable of making the f-body easily out handle it. A combination of our springs, Bilstein or Koni shocks, our sway bars, lower controls arms and a panhard bar will significantly improve the feel of these cars in the corners

LS325ci

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the reply guys.

JD_AMG

I was mainly considering coilovers b/c of handling and it allows me to drop the car further than springs. but ill consider all options, ill start looking at how far they drop with just the springs. thanks for the list. not to mention im not finding mid range coilover for this car.

on top of what you suggested.
what are your take on SFC? i was looking at umi 3 and they look pretty good. not too sure about how well they function.
also strut tower bar , lca and torque arm relocation kit?

brigade24
yea its strickly a street car but once in a while i like to go up to local backroads(we have a pretty good one here so after owning a e46 handling is something that is a requirement for my next ride. If I can make it handle as well as a mildly(springs/shock) e46 ill be happy. better is prefered of course

yea with the bmw the computer is just a PITA to start(no tune support for factory 3 series dme besides 1 guy in florida.) you also cant remove the dme since it runs everything. im big on power (my last two car before this is both 500whp cars) so when I step into the bmw I was disappointed that moding is nearly non existent. it just isnt cost effective(I was ready to build a custom turbo kit, that was the easy part apparently. tuning is like 80% of the battle)

next option was an ls1 or turbo 4.8 into this car but after adding up the cost and swap time i decided to do it the other way. start with ls equip car and make it handle.

m3 is just out of the price range for the power. buddy has one and handling is awesome but lack the power for the initial cost. plus cost way too much to mod...

LS325ci

iTrader: (3)

not concerned with stock vs stock. more like modded t/a vs spring/shock e46
I know its not a fair comparison but all I want is to get it to the level of e46.

so you think with proper match sping/shock, sways, lca and panhard it can out handle an e46?

BMR Tech2

iTrader: (5)

Easily. I have had 4 f-bodies and 2 BMW's myself. Like I said stock vs stock isn't a great comparison, but an f-body with some basic suspension upgrades makes it a whole new ballgame. These cars have a decent platform to begin with, so they respond really well to suspension upgrades. Most of which is just replacing sloppy flexible factory parts with firmer bushings and tubular parts. The shocks paired with our springs will improve the feel of the car without sacrificing ride quality, as well as lowering it 1.25". This will also lower the center of gravity and keep the car more planted and help reduce body roll. The swaybars then of course are stiffer than stock and will help eliminate any remaining body roll and keep the car nice and level through the corners. This is a simple and proven combo that many members on here run with great success and a lot of positive feedback

z-maro

iTrader: (18)

A bilstein or 1LE equipped car should out handle a WS6. Not sure how it would relate to a E46.

JD_AMG

There are "mid range" coilovers for these cars but they are all drag oriented, non-gas charged shocks and lower quality. Not worth the money when you can have better handling with Konis for around the same price.
These cars need suspension travel, you drop them too much (more than 1.5") and you will do nothing but sacrifice handling and ride. Strano springs are 1.2" drop, which is more than enough, and were engineered specifically for handling (when developing the springs he was using various spring rates on konis with a coilover sleeve kit. He found the 1.2" drop to be the best for handling.) Remember these are nothing like BMWs, the suspension geometry is totally different so you cannot apply the logic of "what worked on other cars".
You can see the pic in my sig, that is with strano springs (1.2" drop), its more than enough for looks.
Near useless for handling.
Shocks, springs, swaybars and a wattslink are going to be the biggest difference (tires too of course, but thats a given). Then if you have money left over you can look into the SFC's, control arms and torque arm. Ive have all of the above, the latter 3 did very very little to nothing for handling. Biggest change came from going to Koni SA's.

DarkblueTA

Agreed.

Shocks, springs and sway bars. The WS6/SS cars come with a 32mm front, 19mm rear bars. Mine came with poly bushings. With the mods in my sig, it handles great and stays flat in the turns.

I have a double adjustable rod ended pan hard bar (couldn't afford the watts).

SFC's were given to me, otherwise I wouldn't have bought them.

STB, I notice less cowl shake on rough roads out here. IMHO, not worth the money.

RevGTO

iTrader: (12)

The points made above are valid, and to amplify them, I'll add that BMW chassis dynamics can never be duplicated in an F-body; the former is a finely crafted tool and the latter is a blunt instrument. That being said, an f-body can be made to hug the road tightly and blow off many a more sophisticated machine. For the record, I'll never forget how my brother completely blew away a 911 Turbo on Highway 1 in CA in his STOCK WS6 (Driver mod factor).

Besides the good shocks and springs, sway bars are really important if you want to shine in the curves. If I were to buy them, I'd get Strano's hollow bars. The only reason I don't have them is that I'm living in Kansas where 90% of the driving is in straight lines. If I was back home in CA, I'd have them installed in a New York minute.

And - if you're going to encounter a lot of bumps in the road when you're doing hard cornering, a WATTS link is a must. It will allow that solid rear axle to articulate in ways not otherwise possible.

Koni or Bilstein shocks, Strano or BMR springs, Strano sways, a WATTS link will go a long way toward getting you competitive.

brigade24

I'm with you on the power man. the ls1 out of the gate is a pretty impressive piece and if it's not enough, power can be bolted on...

I do lots of autox and lapping and the most noticeable mods were the shocks, watts link and the auburn race diff. The strano springs are very good for street performance and autox.

79_T/A

iTrader: (1)

You can absolutely get a f-body to run similar times to a 3 series on track using bolt on parts. However, even though the cars will be equally capable, the driving dynamics will be extremely different. You need to be smooth and deliberate with a f-body, whereas the BMW can be driven much harder (its more forgiving).

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

That goes for the F-Body on the street too. It takes a much higher level of concentration to drive "fast." But it's very capable. It's just a handful.

badformulaLS1

iTrader: (1)

Isnt there a guy on here that ran his car at the Nurburgring and went somewhere in the 7:40s with just springs, shocks, swaybars, and I believe exhaust and a couple other minor bolt on power mods? Thats pretty quick for being so midly modded, much faster than a stock e46 M3. He also went 8:07 with a passenger in the car. Which is 2 seconds off the e92 M3 stock time and a good bit quicker than the 8:22 e46 M3 time.

vikingramair

https://ls1tech.com/forums/road-raci...er-inside.html

JD_AMG

I have yet to experience the auburn diff and have always been curious, what changes did you notice? Was the car easier to rotate or did it want to stay strait more or what?

UMI Sales

iTrader: (1)

We have the Auburn Racers diff in Jerry's '99SS and in our Monte.

It seems to make pretty good "decisions" as to where to send traction on corner exit. No weirdness. We like them.

M4N14C

iTrader: (3)

The 7:40 was a bridge to gantry lap, basically excluding the last part of the track. To relevantly compare it with official times you have to add 30-40 seconds to makeup for the last mile of the track and the standing start.

But still a low to mid 8 min lap is right up there with the 5th gen Camaro SS, E46 M3 and some Porsche's all driven by professional drivers.

FASTFATBOY

iTrader: (23)

The BMW truly is "The Ultimate Driving Machine". Can you make an Fbody turn? Yep, sure can but it suffers in daily driven quality. An E46 M3 on decent tires with good brake pads in the right hands is a fast car, make no mistake about that.

Here is a good example, now as a disclaimer this guy CAN DRIVE and this car has suspension mods with a good set of front brakes...but DAMNIT MAN! Running a 1:17 at Roebling in any street driven Fbody would be pretty tough. I could probably run some 1:19's-1:20's on R comps there.I ran 1:28's there as a novice leaving the car in 4th gear on NT-05 tires. Keen is on a street tire in the vid.


My car has developed into a very well mannered, very fun to drive street driven track machine.

Lowering the panhard bar, adding 200lb rear springs and a 22mm solid rear bar has made the car feel much better on the street. I will see this winter how it feels on track.

I realize the vid is a E92 M3(V8 Powered) the E46 is the straight 6 but the chassis is very similar.