y2keglide

iTrader: (2)

I've picked up a few parts used already for my 2001 SS Camaro but haven't installed anything yet.
I have a set of BMR bolt on subframe connectors, a BMR torque arm (non-adjustable) and torque arm relocation crosmember,a BMR panhard rod (non-adjustable) and a set of UMI2039 Poly/Roto Joint Lower control arms.
My car has lowering springs,not sure of make but the car sits pretty low, about 5" under the doors from the body to the ground with 18" 35 series tires. So I've read about relocation brackets for the control arms and panhard rod and have a couple questions before I buy anything more.
I'm looking to make the car handle better more than I am a drag race set up,a street going car for the twisty country roads out where I live and an occasional road trip. So my question is should I invest in the relocation brackets and if I do (looking at the bolt ons) are they compatible with the subframe connectors? I'm also wondering about shocks, what's a good somewhat affordable set of shocks and does it make a difference what shocks I want for a lowered car ,same length etc.? Finally sway bars, the SS has a sway bar upgrade over the standard Z28 if I read right, not sure of what size I have and if I need an upgrade there or not. I also plan on getting a tubular K-member and front A-arms but first things first since I have parts for the rear to get started. Thanks in advance for any help since I'm dazed and confused. lol

y2keglide

iTrader: (2)

Oh and I also am getting a set of American Racing headers and Y-pipe w/o cats, I already bought a set of LS6 heads, a custom cam (.617 lift) spec'd by Wong's Performance in Vancouver, WA, Comp Cams double valve springs,LS7 lifters, an LS7 clutch kit with the RAM aluminum flywheel (six speed car) so we'll be putting a bit more power to the ground. I plan on probably a set of 3:90 gears to replace the stock 3:42's and maybe an axle upgrade, again not going drag racing or road racing so hopefully the 10 bolt will hold up ok to some spirited back road fun. The car has only 86K miles and is not a daily driver.

JD_AMG

Unfortunately everything you just listed will do nothing for handling.
And its pointless to get an non adjustable PHB, especially if you are lowered.
If I were you I would honestly sell all the above and use that money to invest in good shocks if you don't already have them, that is the foundation of a good handling setup.
I have all the above from another vendor except for the relocation cross member and none of it made a noticeable difference in handling (or noticeable difference in anything else for that matter). What will make the biggest different in handling, feel, control and balance is a good set of shocks - gas charged monotube shocks.
What color are the springs? Can you see any markings on them for a brand?
If you want to measure height, measure from the top of the fender opening to the ground. Post pics of the under side of the back of the car to show us the suspension already on the car. Take a pic of the wheel well in the front to show us that as well.
SFCs and relocation brackets have nothing to do with eachother, and you don't need either or the PHB relocation (the whole point of that is if you are running bigger exhaust that wont fit over the stock PHB brace). Unless you are talking about UMIs adjustable roll center bracket for the PHB, that will actually help handling. On that same note a watts link will also really help handling.

They don't make different shock heights for these cars, you can fit whatever shock with whatever spring. For what you are doing I would suggest koni sports single adjustables (again sell the other useless stuff and use that money to buy these). Those are basically the best bang for the buck shock out there for what they do. Find out what springs you have now as well and if they are no good that is something else you will want to replace (strano springs are ideal, bmr springs work too)

SS/WS6 cars got a bigger 32m front bar (over 30mm base car) and the same 19mm rear bar all the others got.
An upgrade will be 35mm front/22mm rear, any bigger in the rear than that and you can expect a tail happy setup.
Dont bother with the k-member, total waste of money for a street car, on top of that if you do want one the only real choice is the UMI road race version as all others are designed around dragracing and can (and have) break on a street car. Front A-arms will help with feel, but not really handling. If you insist on those then get UMIs new high caster setting ones.
If you are really ok with spending this kind of money on the car then you can take it one step further on the shocks/springs and get the strano/UMI custom afco coilovers, those will blow just about anything else away.
In review the biggest players are shocks, springs and swaybars, then if you have more money to spend get a watts link, everything else is moot in comparison.

The 10 bolt will be fine, I wouldn't bother changing the gears around especially if its just a street car. Im making 433rwhp/420ft.lbs on a bone stock 10 bolt with no issues.

y2keglide

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the reply, so what I've read elsewhere about the subframe connectors etc. adding rigidity to the car reducing body flex in the corners isn't correct?
The lowering springs are red,not sure on the brand ,can't see any stickers on them but the car is so low I can't get my head under it without jacking it up.
I was under the impression that the tubular torque arm and LCA's were stronger than the factory pieces if not lighter.
I also read that the LCA relocation brackets correct the geometry on the rear of lowered cars,from BMR's website "BMR’s control arm relocation brackets allow you to correct the lower control arm angle, correcting the rear suspension geometry"
This is why I was looking at them, I won't be going to the track but will probably do some hard launches from time to time.
"SFCs and relocation brackets have nothing to do with each other"
The back of the SFC's bolt on with the LCA's hence the question of fitment with the relocating brackets.
The gear change I'm thinking about, would that not give me a bit better1/4 mile time, was also looking at 4:10's but not sure I want to go quite that low because I plan on some road trips with this car. The 3:42's just seem too tall with this 6 speed to me and was thinking 3:90's would give a good compromise allowing a bit better acceleration and ease taking off in 1st gear without losing too much highway cruising ability.
"the biggest players are shocks, springs and swaybars, then if you have more money to spend get a watts link" these sound like a good investment and I will look into it for sure,that's the kind of info I was looking for so thanks again. I don't mind putting some money in the car, not a daily driver and have no plans on selling it, at least 'till I'm too old to drive it anymore and at 60 that might not be too far down the pipe. lol

y2keglide

iTrader: (2)

Oh and I didn't spend much so far, bought used parts for a song so I'm not hurt on what I got so far. Only gave $220 for the torque arm, relocation crossmember and panhard rod so I may as well use them. I'm only into the SFC's and LCA $380 so just $600 for it all.

JD_AMG

Yup.
1. There isn't any noticeable body flex in cornering (don't confuse body roll for actual chassis flexing)
2. SFC's don't make a noticeable difference.
Forget about reading descriptions of parts from the guys trying to sell you the parts, think about that for a second,ofcoure they are going to write whatever it takes to make the part sound good. Search on here and read what the people actually using the parts (especially the guys racing) have to say about them. For example: https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspensio...bout-sfcs.html


That sounds normal to me, these cars sit low to ground to begin with. Red could be BMR springs but I think eibach sportlines might be red too (which is very bad).
Get under the back of the car and look at the springs, will be much easier to see. Take pics for us to see as well, you may have some goodies under there you dont know about. I bet the previous owner installed an adjustable PHB since you are lowered. You wouldn't need the PHB you bought then.
That doesn't mean they will help handling, they are for better hard launching at the dragstrip.
They don't "correct" the geometry, they allow you change it back to how it was stock, which is not necessarily better for handling, but is better for dragracing. After you lower the car the rear LCA will be pointing downward from the axle to the chassis, this induces roll understeer which is better/easier for handling. Adding the relocation brackets will let you align them flat (like stock) or lower on the axle side than the chassis side which will help hard launching but induce roll oversteer for handling (not necessarily a good thing).
Again use the search feature here first and take the product description with a grain of salt as they will use certain terms like "correct geometry" to make it sound like its for the better when its just a matter of what you are doing with the car.

The back of the SFC connect to the chassis mounting point of the LCAs and the LCA bolt goes through them. The relocation brackets attaches to the axle and has nothing to do with the chassis.

Thats arguable. In theory yes but there are a lot of factors.
Are you having trouble taking off in 1st gear or something? Are you used to some really tight gearing from previous cars or what?
Since you are also adding some decent power 1st gear is going to become useless on the street with street tires anyway, they're going to spin like crazy.
Thats not too bad but you could have spent less money on some strano swaybars (or put that money toward koni sports) and gotten a massive difference in handling compared to basically no difference in handling with what you have there.

y2keglide

iTrader: (2)

Thanks again, I figured on a good set of shocks and wasn't sure on the sway bars but now that I know what I have and what the upgrade is they're on the list too. I didn't want to pop for shocks until I knew for sure what works with the lowering springs. I'll try to find out what the springs are as soon as the weather breaks, not much room in the garage and we are having a snowstorm right now. I'll go out and try to get a pic, I did take a flashlight out there and try to see what I have and from what I could see everything under the car looks OEM except for the springs and the GMMG chambered exhaust. The car is parked for Winter right now all covered and in hibernation. As for taking off in 1st gear, well I just bought the car in Sept. and put it away in Oct. when the weather turned foul so I really haven't had much seat time in it yet but it seemed like 1st gear was pretty tall. My last Camaro ('93 Z28) was an auto so it's been a while since I had a stick and my last stick was a big block '69 with 3:90 gears and a 4 speed so a really different animal. I had that car for 14 years but it's been 27 years ago that I let it get away from me so it's not very relevant to what I'm experiencing now. Maybe I just need more time in this car but I've always liked lower butt gears for the seat of the pants feel mashing the pedal. Heck I may still go with 4:10's,most of my driving will be close to home and I live way out of the city with lots of great twisty rural roads in mountainous country. I live in the foothills of the Cascades, folks come out here from the city to ride motorcycles and drive sports cars because the roads are so fun and don't have a lot of traffic or LEO activity. I really appreciate your input and will do some more searches here on the site when I have more time.

y2keglide

iTrader: (2)

So I tried to get a few pics,didn't do very well unfortunately but at least you can see it's mostly stock parts. First pic is from back in Oct. just before I put her away, gives a better shot at the wheels and tires and how the car sits.
Front tires are 265/35-18 and rears are 285/35-18,I'm hoping I can fit something a little big bigger on both ends with these wheels.




Front





Rear

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JD_AMG

Good pics, that is a clean car good job getting that one!
Im thinking those could be vogland springs as well, they seem to kinda have a purple tint to them or maybe thats just the lighting. Whether they are eibach, bmr or vogland or whatever else they should have the brand name painted on them somewhere.
Also noticed the GMMG exhaust, hang on to that one, those are expensive and desirable catbacks.
1st should go to about 45mph if I remember right, then 2nd is around 70-75mph and 3rd is to around 100mph. Your diff cover is painted so at some point it was off the car and maybe the PO replace the gears with something smaller (ive seen it happen in the past) or even got the whole rear end out of an auto car which get 3.23 gears or 2.73 gears (again Ive seen this happen in the past).
Update us when you get the car back on the road and figure everything out.

On the tires if those are 9.5" wide front wheels and 10.5" wide rear wheels you can run 275s in the front and 315s in the rear.

M4N14C

iTrader: (3)

That's great news. I just got a Eaton TrueTrac, 4.10's and a TA Girdle for cheap insurance but still worry about my 10 bolt. What tires are you running?

JD_AMG

315/35/17 NT05s. They used to hook really well when I was at bolt-on power. Now I think the real saving grace is the fact that I spin in 1st and 2nd. Vast majority of the ones you always hear about breaking are running drag radials at a prepped track and doing a high rpm clutch dump and hooking up. Wheel hop breaks them too. You almost never hear about them breaking on the street, and Ive never read about one breaking during auto-x or road racing.

y2keglide

iTrader: (2)

Thanks,love this car so far

Yeah I looked for a while to find this car with just 86K miles, it was well cared for, leather inside and an Alpine heads up display stereo with a pair of Rockford Fosgate amps and a sub in the back, inside looks like new, ash try and lighter never used etc. I checked out the GMMG site and yeah a pricey piece, with the optional tips about a grand if I remember right. We're putting American Racing headers with the no cats Y-pipe on in the Spring with a cam and LS6 heads from an '04 Z06.Doing it up right with a new performance timing set/oil pump, Comp double springs etc. Also bough a new LS7 clutch kit with the RAM aluminum flywheel.
275's and 315's are what I hope to be able to fit, should really make it pop especially when I add the 30th style stripes.

BMR Sales2

iTrader: (40)

Oh boy, we've got a mess going on in here. Lets back up a little;

First thing I want to address is the use of the non-adjustable panhard bar with lowering springs. I would highly recommend going with an adjustable bar since the function of it is to recenter the axle after lowering. The non-adjustable piece will have the rear end pushed off to one side still. It will reduces flex and lateral movement of the axle under hard cornering better than that of a stock bar, but that will only be noteable in extreme conditions

As for the relocation brackets, there are a ton of theories and debate about this. On a stock height car, I would say no problem, for your situation I would leave them there. However since you are lowered, your control arm angles will be off and there will be a bunch of squat induced into the back of the car. This is good for braking, but acceleration suffers, as well as the ability for the car to remain stable and planted over surface transitions, as less force is being applied to the tire. I would recommend doing relocation brackets, but running the arms in the uppermost position of the brackets. This will put the arms level and keep a neutral squat/anti-squat load

Next thing to cover is the SFC debate. I still struggle with people saying they don't notice a difference with SFC's. These cars are wet noodles from the factory. They squeak, rattle, flex and vibrate like crazy. A good shock and spring combination will help mask some of this, but simply does not do the same job. I have never had a person tell me that they did not notice a difference from adding them, regardless of spring/shock combination. Will they make a huge difference in handling and corner fell? No. That's not what they do. But i have many customers who wished they would have invested in them sooner, as they have creased their quarter panels, ran into door gap and window sealing issues or even had t-tops dislodge themselves under hard load. They do a job. We don't make them for aesthetics.

From where you are now, I would recommend the brackets either way. But also the addition of a good shock to go with your springs (which appear to be ours as well). The subframes you can make a judgement call on. You will not notice a handling improvement from them per se, but they will keep you enjoying your car for a longer time without ill long term effects

JD_AMG

Acceleration doesn't suffer at all, traction might suffer but that doesn't mean the car wont accelerate when its getting traction.

Bullshit.
I know the real answer to this, and the answer you will probably tell me, but have you ever been in a properly maintained fbody (not a junk yard car) on stock suspension (in good working condition, bushings and all still good) with koni sports?
If you trully have then you wouldn't be saying this.

Answer me this, why did my car suddenly stop rattling or having any vibrations, and "flexing" (perceived flex due to shitty stock shocks) the second I installed the koni sports?
Why did my friends car with lower miles, in better condition with SFCs welded in on otherwise stock suspension still feel like a loose, floaty flexy boat compared to my car with higher miles, on otherwise stock suspension with the exception of Koni sports? Why would he think that with his "stiffer chassis" that my car was so much more solid, planted and composed that I must be hiding an "under the interior" cage or something? It was THAT much better. Most fbody owners didn't believe all I had was shocks. Later i did install 3pt SFCs that were bolted in at first (no change) then later welded (still no change in any driving manner).
Why is it that any Fbody Ive been in that has SFC's but also has inadequate shocks still feel like a loose, floppy/"flexy" boat, where as cars without SFC's but have good shocks do not exhibit any of this "flex" feeling?

Then you haven't asked any people that have a good shock/spring combo installed before the SFC's.
The shocks don't mask the problem, the shocks ARE the problem.
If anything the SFC's bandaid the problem and brace the chassis for impact when you shouldn't be getting that impact in the first place.
When you have shitty, mismatched shocks like the factory ones you get a lot of goofy feel and what some perceive as flex (front feeling disconnected from rear, rear acting own its own, solid axle flopping around and pulling the car different directions, hitting a bump and getting vibrations or feeling like the car is falling apart, rear end slamming on bumps, general loose floaty feeling, not connected to the road or the driver) - thats all shocks.

If they truly stiffen the chassis to a noticeable difference then you should easily be able to feel a difference when cornering. Other cars that actually need them (like a fox platform) do notice a big difference in cornering.

If someone can actually come up with something that really does stop the creasing/dimpling in the quarter panels Ill be all over it, but SFCs certain do NOT. I, and many others have seen new dimples appear well after SFC's have been installed, they don't even brace that far back to stop anything going on with the rear quarter panels. There would actually have to be some kind of bracing back there to fix this.
Door gaps come from having overly heavy doors with weak hinges, leave the door open for too long or put extra weight on it and the hinge is going to bend some, thats a fact.
Ive never heard of or seen a T-top dislodge itself due to flex. Ive seen some fly off from not being closed or not being put on properly, air starts to pull it up and then its gone, but thats it. Ive had my car without SFCs at the time jacked up at the drivers front corner to the point the car was teetering back and forth and I took both t-tops off and back on with no issue/different alignment or change at all.

This is something I won't argue with, having SFCs might actually keep the stiffer in the long run (not proven though), but they certainly do not make a noticeable difference from the seat of the pants perspective.
This post #13 here sums things up pretty good:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspensio...ml#post6712303

Floorman279

iTrader: (11)

Another thread with jd getting fired up because he doesnt agree with someone else.

Corvett z07

iTrader: (2)

^ hehe gotta love the rants

y2keglide

iTrader: (2)

Well it appears I've opened up a can of worms. Heh Heh
Since I have the SFC's already and they are bolt ons I plan to go ahead and use them, same for the torque arm and LCAs'.
If nothing else they look cool. lol
I think maybe the panhard rod I'll just throw out there on eBay to sell and then buy an adjustable one to replace the stock piece with.
I definitely want to the do shocks and sway bars upgrades as well.

Floorman279

iTrader: (11)

In my opinion, some sfc are designed better than others but cant possibly do anything worse. So if u got em run em.


Check this out

http://www.americanmuscle.com/what-is-a-watts-link.html

I decided to keep the phb on my setup. Id rather spend the 700+ on other mods.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Except he's right.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Before I forget. 4.10's are something I never recommend in a 10-bolt. It's a grenade with the pin pulled. The pinion gear is just tiny and weak.

As for LCA brackets. I don't run them, even on cars where the ruleset allows it (which even includes the classes that I ran with my white Camaro in SCCA. In fact recently we removed two sets from S197 Mustangs because the owners of both insisted on them, largely because they believe what they read. And in both instances both cars started having issues with brake hop. Something that torque arms cars do more than a 3 link car like those. Now, Torque Arms. The shorter the arm, the more that happens with these cars too, which is why I do not run short torque arms (including decoupled TA's).

Sure, lots of theories. Which is why I much prefer reality. And it's why I own, run, race, and have won a lot of stuff in these cars. The current car I own I'd decided I'm not building to any SCCA rule set. In fact I'm doing NASA TT3 which is pretty much just power to weight only and I'll also do more "muscle car" and Pro Touring events with this car. In short, I can do whatever I want suspension wise for NASA only having to watch the power to weigh for TT3. More power means higher class, but the car is less competitive as you go up minus HUGE amounts of money. And I'm wanting to avoid ugly wings and splitters.