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Yes I agree wholeheartedly on the Watt's superiority, but my concern is if the Watt's link will allow the solid axle to perform to my satisfaction. In many ways I guess it will since the shimmying and arcing is 90% of my problem with the solid axle and the binding and hopping through sharp inclined turns is 10%. What's stirred up the sudden frustration is after moving there's a turn I take every day that's about 130° with about a 20° incline and every time if I take it at speed the axle will bind and hop through it, then the rest of the road is twisty with lots of irregularities so it just shimmies and arcs the entire time. Prior to moving there was a road I traveled often that went through the mountain and there was an 180° turn with about a 25° incline and it would bind and hop every time even slowing down to go through it. I like the car otherwise and all that aside it actually handles well, but it's enough to make me want to sell it and get another Miata.
Again Ive never experienced or even heard of anyone having a binding issue due to having a solid axle unless they were running poly bushings in the control arms (check if yours has poly bushings). This sounds like another issue all together, almost sounds like the diff is going out or something.
The arching is the PHB setup and possibly the shimming too but its hard to say because your description is vague. Could be the shitty shocks as well.
The only things suspension wise that's been done was the previous owner put on a 32mm front sway bar and 21mm rear sway bar along with putting in KYB shocks, he also changed the sway bushings to poly. The only thing I've done handling wise is put on the 9.5" wide sawblades covered in 275/40-17 BF Goodrich Sport COMP-2 tires.
Your car has more rear bar than front, and those KYBs are not doing you any favors. Id highly suggest getting a set of koni sport single adjustables if your priority is handling, you will thank me later.
A SRA will never ride like a IRS. Unless you want to spend $7000 on a somewhat bolt in IRS for a 4th gen or make a C4 IRS fit yourself, you are SOL.
A IRS will always feel smoother through a turn that has uneven surface. Driving my car at autocross with mods below and riding in a C5 is night and day. But my setup below is WORLDS better than my car was stock and surprises some people.
I'd assume based on his shimmying description... there's more goin on than it being a "solid axle" car. His car is a 1996. What's the bushing quality on the LCA's? The torque arm bushing mount? Maybe the bearings are bad on the axle or pinion.
Shimmying is not how I describe my experience in my car on entrance ramps or tight turns.
The car had been inspected on a lift and all the bushings are fine, everything in the driveline is fine. I'll take a closer look at the LCA bushings to see if they're poly or rubber. If I had a reason to suspect it was the car itself I'd say so, but it was a two owner car and the previous owner was religious on maintaining it. As nicely as the transmission shifts and feels I don't think it was ever abused and you can tell when a manual has been abused. After I got the car I went ahead and replaced all the driveline fluids with the GM specified fluids, the fluids that came out were used but not burnt.
As to the sways I was curious about that and from what I found the '93 1LE had the same bar setup, and that the rear was so thick because they didn't change the springs unlike in later years. Part of the problem is I drive it like I did the Miata and Celica I owned prior, and it does a good job overall so if it sounds like I'm knocking fourth gens I'm not, so I'm probably cutting and turning in through corners way sharper than I should. The shimmying and arcing is more apparent through left turns so it must be the PHB but it's not like it's this out of control "I'm about to die" shimmy, it's minute and subtle but it's definitely there and is more prominent if the road is rough and irregular. As far as the binding I'm not sure if that's the best word, but when the rear is at extreme angles(and to answer your earlier question this is the only time it happens) it will catch and hop. Like it can't make it through the transition as fast as the front of the car so it just stumbles through it, perhaps like M4NI4C described as "jumping out" is more accurate.
I know a SRA will never be like an IRS and it's silly to try, but I know it can be better. The FB RX-7 had a solid axle with a Watt's link and you never really see anyone knock their handling and then more recently the SN195 BOSS 302, so I know a solid axle can handle. It's also very possible I'm blowing things out of proportion as I've been known to do that, but I'm OCD and I notice it so a molehill becomes a mountain.
The car had been inspected on a lift and all the bushings are fine, everything in the driveline is fine. I'll take a closer look at the LCA bushings to see if they're poly or rubber. If I had a reason to suspect it was the car itself I'd say so, but it was a two owner car and the previous owner was religious on maintaining it. As nicely as the transmission shifts and feels I don't think it was ever abused and you can tell when a manual has been abused. After I got the car I went ahead and replaced all the driveline fluids with the GM specified fluids, the fluids that came out were used but not burnt.
As to the sways I was curious about that and from what I found the '93 1LE had the same bar setup, and that the rear was so thick because they didn't change the springs unlike in later years. Part of the problem is I drive it like I did the Miata and Celica I owned prior, and it does a good job overall so if it sounds like I'm knocking fourth gens I'm not, so I'm probably cutting and turning in through corners way sharper than I should. The shimmying and arcing is more apparent through left turns so it must be the PHB but it's not like it's this out of control "I'm about to die" shimmy, it's minute and subtle but it's definitely there and is more prominent if the road is rough and irregular. As far as the binding I'm not sure if that's the best word, but when the rear is at extreme angles(and to answer your earlier question this is the only time it happens) it will catch and hop. Like it can't make it through the transition as fast as the front of the car so it just stumbles through it, perhaps like M4NI4C described as "jumping out" is more accurate.
I know a SRA will never be like an IRS and it's silly to try, but I know it can be better. The FB RX-7 had a solid axle with a Watt's link and you never really see anyone knock their handling and then more recently the SN195 BOSS 302, so I know a solid axle can handle. It's also very possible I'm blowing things out of proportion as I've been known to do that, but I'm OCD and I notice it so a molehill becomes a mountain.
Nooooooo not so!
Make sure your wheels are not catching on the bump stop brackets....massive articulation in a OEM PHB setup can and will allow the axle to "swing" so far and catch the wheel on the bump stop...
The car had been inspected on a lift and all the bushings are fine, everything in the driveline is fine. I'll take a closer look at the LCA bushings to see if they're poly or rubber. If I had a reason to suspect it was the car itself I'd say so, but it was a two owner car and the previous owner was religious on maintaining it. As nicely as the transmission shifts and feels I don't think it was ever abused and you can tell when a manual has been abused. After I got the car I went ahead and replaced all the driveline fluids with the GM specified fluids, the fluids that came out were used but not burnt.
Take visual inspections with a grain of salt. My rear stock LCAs bushings looked fine with only ~60-70K miles on them but when I took them off and touched one of the bushings it fell right out into my hand. Just because the car wasn't abused doesn't mean things like bushing are old and dry rotted by now, or they have taken a beating from driving on bad city roads or something, gotta keep in mind the age of the car too.
As to the sways I was curious about that and from what I found the '93 1LE had the same bar setup, and that the rear was so thick because they didn't change the springs unlike in later years.
I may be wrong but I always thought I read that the cars with the 21mm rear bar either got a 35mm front bar or the higher front spring rate to match. Either way that bar is a little to big for a 32mm front bar for neutral handling. Not the end of the world or anything but a 35mm front bar would definitely be a welcomed upgrade since you like to take corners hard.
Part of the problem is I drive it like I did the Miata and Celica I owned prior, and it does a good job overall so if it sounds like I'm knocking fourth gens I'm not, so I'm probably cutting and turning in through corners way sharper than I should.
Smaller cars like that should be typically more nimble just simply do to their size but cutting street corners sharp is absolutely not an issue in a properly setup 4th gen.
The shimmying and arcing is more apparent through left turns so it must be the PHB but it's not like it's this out of control "I'm about to die" shimmy, it's minute and subtle but it's definitely there and is more prominent if the road is rough and irregular.
Is it a shimmy like the back of the car is doing a small butt wiggle but the tires remain planted? Or are the tires sliding back and forth or what?
As far as the binding I'm not sure if that's the best word, but when the rear is at extreme angles(and to answer your earlier question this is the only time it happens) it will catch and hop. Like it can't make it through the transition as fast as the front of the car so it just stumbles through it, perhaps like M4NI4C described as "jumping out" is more accurate.
That makes me wonder if the wheels you have are catching on the bumpstops or bumpstop mounts when the axle is at a more extreme angle like that, causing a sudden hop or something. Get under the car and check that out. Sounds like it could also be a bushing binding up at the extreme angle and then releasing and causing the rear to hop/skip.
I know a SRA will never be like an IRS and it's silly to try, but I know it can be better. The FB RX-7 had a solid axle with a Watt's link and you never really see anyone knock their handling
Lets be serious there are way too many RX7 fanbois that would never admit if the handling was bad. On top of that too many people assume that the 4th gen doesn't handle well being a 90s american muscle/pony car without ever even being in one, and even the guys that like muscle cars usually assume the mustang of the same year handles better because its smaller, which we know is pretty far off.
Alright thanks I'll check out the bump stop brackets when I look at the LCA bushings. Eventually I want to replace all the bushings, do KONI shocks with Strano or UMI springs, and then the Strano hollow sway bar set. Actually if money were no issue I'd LOVE to have the UMI/Strano coil-overs, but we can all dream.
Originally Posted by JD_AMG
I may be wrong but I always thought I read that the cars with the 21mm rear bar either got a 35mm front bar or the higher front spring rate to match. Either way that bar is a little to big for a 32mm front bar for neutral handling. Not the end of the world or anything but a 35mm front bar would definitely be a welcomed upgrade since you like to take corners hard.
I found this post with the information on all the 1LE years: https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspensio...tml#post713917 Then found in a few other places across the web that said the same. The previous owner bought the car from the first owner back in '04, so I guess he was just doing what he thought was best at the time with what was available.
Smaller cars like that should be typically more nimble just simply do to their size but cutting street corners sharp is absolutely not an issue in a properly setup 4th gen.
Agreed, to be honest the fourth gen has actually surprised and impressed me. It's a lot better than what people want to give it credit for.
Is it a shimmy like the back of the car is doing a small butt wiggle but the tires remain planted? Or are the tires sliding back and forth or what?
Butt wiggle is probably the best description, the tires never leave the ground or shift but I can feel the back of the car gyrate.
That makes me wonder if the wheels you have are catching on the bumpstops or bumpstop mounts when the axle is at a more extreme angle like that, causing a sudden hop or something. Get under the car and check that out. Sounds like it could also be a bushing binding up at the extreme angle and then releasing and causing the rear to hop/skip.
I didn't notice it until after I changed the rims and tires, but prior I didn't even remotely push the car because the tires would break away any chance they'd get. Will check everything out here shortly.
Lets be serious there are way too many RX7 fanbois that would never admit if the handling was bad. On top of that too many people assume that the 4th gen doesn't handle well being a 90s american muscle/pony car without ever even being in one, and even the guys that like muscle cars usually assume the mustang of the same year handles better because its smaller, which we know is pretty far off.
Haha, same with another certain roadster I owned. They're perfect from the factory don't you know, yet there's all those aftermarket parts to correct things. The SN95 Mustang sucks(I tested a couple including a SRA Cobra before getting the Firebird) and it and the fourth gen F-body couldn't be any more different, the Firebird feels more like my Celica than it did those Mustangs but maybe that's just me.
The shimmying and arcing is more apparent through left turns so it must be the PHB but it's not like it's this out of control "I'm about to die" shimmy, it's minute and subtle but it's definitely there and is more prominent if the road is rough and irregular.
Mine does this too, on rare, high-G, left-hand sweepers with bumps.
Originally Posted by Boxxx
As far as the binding I'm not sure if that's the best word, but when the rear is at extreme angles(and to answer your earlier question this is the only time it happens) it will catch and hop. Like it can't make it through the transition as fast as the front of the car so it just stumbles through it, perhaps like M4NI4C described as "jumping out" is more accurate.
This sounds more like the limited slip diff locking under power in a turn. If you have ever driven a 4WD truck with the diff locked on the street, you will know what this feels like. Because one wheel must travel farther than the other, there is some skipping involved. Does this only happen to you under power?
Alright I checked the bump stop brackets and at the closest point there's at least 1/8" clearance from what I can tell, and the LCA bushings are rubber.
I had wondered if maybe it was the differential locking under power, but I've driven other LSD cars and never experienced such and it only does it during those sharp inclined turns. Of course they were IRS with either a Torsen or viscous and not SRA with a friction cone, but that would make sense now that you bring it up.
Gotta love all these people dissing a panhard when they clearly have other issues with their car.
I'm not sure who this was towards but in my case the panhard was 100% the issue. My upper and lower panhard bars were contacting causing a huge issues with the way the car handled. Even if I wouldn't have had the panhard relocation bar the bar angled up towards the driver's side a lot. Without buying something to bring the bar back level it was at a bad angle.
I'm not sure who this was towards but in my case the panhard was 100% the issue. My upper and lower panhard bars were contacting causing a huge issues with the way the car handled. Even if I wouldn't have had the panhard relocation bar the bar angled up towards the driver's side a lot. Without buying something to bring the bar back level it was at a bad angle.
I know, i mentioned that in the first post. I was looking at that from when they released it. I just knew that eventually I wanted to go with a watts, so i stepped up to the plate and got it. Liking it more and more every event. Gaining a lot of confidence in the seat. I know for sure that I am the weak link with the car now and nothing but more seat time can fix that.
I know, i mentioned that in the first post. I was looking at that from when they released it. I just knew that eventually I wanted to go with a watts, so i stepped up to the plate and got it. Liking it more and more every event. Gaining a lot of confidence in the seat. I know for sure that I am the weak link with the car now and nothing but more seat time can fix that.
You made the correct choice.
Panhardbar relocation brackets are nothing more than a bandied to the problem. Watts link solves so many problems.
People have to realize that putting in poly end links in the rear suspension is not a good thing over time. As the poly ages, and oxidizes, it gets hard, brittle, and binds. In order for the rear suspension to do it's job, the joints need to rotate smoothly, without binding.
I had the same issue with the jittery feeling over curves with bumps and realizes that my phb end links had deteriated to were the bar was binding so bad. Same thing happened to the lca's. I went to 1le lca's, and back to the factory phb and noticed a large difference in handling.
I plant to do a watts link to fully free up the rear, and help with handling. My new daily driver is a Mercedes C350, and the IRS and handling of the car is amazing, and really enlightened me of how a well engineered rear should feel.
Well, after nearly a year with the watts link from MWC I have had zero negative thoughts on it. It has performed flawlessly. I moved the hole up one spot from center mid-season and it made the rear of the car rotate so much more during the auto-x events.
Unfortunately (or lucky depending how you want to look at it) my 10 bolt is not fairing as well. After LSfest West last may I brought my car home with a much louder rear. https://ls1tech.com/forums/gears-axl...s-way-out.html The carrier bearing were shot and the rear needed a rebuild. I slapped a set of 3:90 gears in there and new axle bearings but the axles were pretty chewed up as well. I ended up using a helper bearing on the passenger site axle as it was the worse of the two. I ran the rest of the season and didn’t have any more rear-end issues.
Last week it was time to get the car ready for the first auto-x event scheduled for March 11th, I was going to install new brake pads as the rears were getting to about the lower 1/3 of their life. I pulled the wheels off and immediately noticed a problem. Both rear axle seals went out sometime last season and gear oil was covering the inside of the wheels as well as all the brake components.
I told myself after the gear change that I wasn’t going to spend another dime on the 10-bolt, so it was time to order a MWC Fab9. So last Friday I placed my order. Super excited to get if after years of seeing them on here. I’ll update with some pics as soon as it shows up.
Last edited by Chrisingermany; 03-14-2018 at 03:02 PM.
04-27-2017, 05:54 AM
The SN95 Mustang sucks(I tested a couple including a SRA Cobra before getting the Firebird) and it and the fourth gen F-body couldn't be any more different, the Firebird feels more like my Celica than it did those Mustangs but maybe that's just me. 
