handyandy

Let me start by saying I completely agree that it is ignorant and frustrating that people use Sam by calling him up with questions on parts they fully know they are going to buy from another source. I would personally never call or initiate contact with a business if I knew I was going to buy the same product somewhere else. The only interaction I've had with Sam outside of the forum was some e-mail traffic regarding his springs and Koni's, which I then purchased from him after getting the info I required. If you know you're going to buy the product from Summit or wherever, then call them for info. And even if you find it for a few dollars less after talking with Sam on the phone for a while, I agree that you should still buy from him (within reason). Not everyone will agree with that, but I do think from an integrity standpoint that you should at least have intentions from buying the product from Sam if you're initiating contact with him.

What I do take issue with is when he brings that same attitude / argument to the forum. The forum is for information sharing, and people looking to learn from others who have already done it. It's great and helpful when Sam offers his insight or knowledge, but if he's the one initiating the contact (i.e. because he wants to sell his product) then he can't get angry about "giving out free advice". In the first scenario of someone calling him up and asking questions, they are initiating the contact because it benefits them. They need his knowledge. In the second scenario of the forum, Sam is initiating contact because he wants to make a sales pitch. It's in his interest to answer the question by stating the pros of his product, because he's hoping to make money off of it. If that person turns around and buys a product Sam recommended in a post from somewhere else, that's just how it goes - that person didn't initiate or ask Sam specifically for his information, so he has no obligation to him. And if Sam chimes in on every thread on the forum, that doesn't automatically make each of those people indebted to him. He also can't use phone customers calling him as reasoning why nobody can post a Summit link in a thread he's involved in, because they are two very different types of interactions that aren't related.

Again don't get me wrong, my issue isn't with the forum sales pitch - as you said lots of other vendors do it too, and there's no issue with saying "buy my springs because they are the best". The problem is that you can't suddenly get upset if they don't go for your sales pitch, and even worse, you can't put up false narratives and half truths about other products or options just to make yours sound better. The ATS brake setup that you speak of, I was involved in that thread, and I had a very different takeaway from it. I have no issues with Sam saying the pros of his kit, but he also bashes the CTS / ATS brakes as not being suitable for our cars. When pressed for reasons why, he deflects with every bit of irrelevant information you can think of. When people compare bore sizes between his setup and the Brembos, and refute his half arguments with facts about the vehicles the Brembos came on OEM, it's crickets. He clearly has no factual reason or data to say the Brembos aren't a good fit, and other posters did the homework and proved what he said to be false. And there's no reason for that, other than he's trying to make a sale, and he's used to being able to make bold statements and having people believe him without any kind of data or facts. As another poster above here said, he likes customers that he can 'educate' in a one-sided way, but anyone that wants to have a further discussion and provide their own input is less welcomed.

And FWIW, Willwood sells the calipers from his kit as an upgrade for the C5 - the reason he says it's a good match is because the C5 and 4th gen F-Body share similar braking systems, and if Willwood sells it as a C5 replacement, then it must be a good replacement for our cars. That's all fine, and he is welcome to market how well they will work, but he also can't just throw out unsubstantiated claims about the Brembos. If you read that thread fully there's nobody in there putting them on "just because of a Brembo sticker" - there is a fair bit of data and analysis backing them up too.

ThoR294

iTrader: (6)

TDLR:
Strano springs are the best
BMR copied strano springs because everyone was buying strano's instead of BMRs
/thread

AnotherWs6

iTrader: (17)

Hard to ask about lowering springs without bringing up strano, lol. Probably a reason for that.

OP - not knocking you but holy S it is so easy to find so much information about 4th gen lowering springs on here without asking. It's the one area I am most versed in just because I kept reading about here before I bought my springs. There is sooooooo much out there but ime and time again it boils down to -- Strano/BMR and Koni sports. Done deal. I don't know if BMR's are rip off Strano's but they had their Koni sale one year and gave away the springs for free --- how do I say no to that? I can tell you I am very happy with them.

I'm honestly not sure about how I feel with Sam. I totally get his frustration with having his brain picked without compensation. And how it must be frustrating to see people throwing up links to suspension parts on Summit that he sells. The price matching question should have gone offline. I put a thread up about losing my brakes during "spirited" driving and he chimed in and made a lot of sense. I think we IM'd about options afterwards. And no, I didn't buy from him because I saw what I was looking for for sale in the forum. Hard to pay more for something because it's the right things to do when you know you're hurting someone else. But throwing up that Summit link....godam dude. That's a slap in the face.

Having said all that I've seen him come across questionably in the past, perhaps on this thread as well. But there is never a shortage of people ready to attack someone and call them a complete ******* when something didn't go right for them, so I'm sure some of the **** he gets hit with isn't fair.

It's the fng internet man. It's awesome but Holy **** does it also sucks.

capelajc

LOL ..I saw replies and was excited there might be pics after I asked if anyone had installed Sam's .5 spacers on rear springs

I wish there was a vendor feedback/experience thread all the off topic BS could have been taken to or started. Maybe a mod will clean it up.

black sky

iTrader: (3)

Agreed..The lengths of some of these posts are almost at "War and Peace" level. Lol. This thread is ready for the Maury show. "You are NOT!! going to get lowering spring information OP!

capelajc

LMAO!!

BrntWS6

iTrader: (7)

I have sams sways and a bmr/koni setup because they are cheaper and weigh the same. Both pretty similar springs but i am going to save money where i can, simple as that.

Giving out free advice is the price of business, get over it. Ive been in the trades for 24 years and owned my own business for 12. Been on many estimates talking with customers i never hear from again. I don't think about them and don't care because its a waste of energy, stop being a bunch of pussies.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Yeah. They aren't the same. Copies might look alike, but aren't alike. You can see that in lots of things from knock off Nike's to Chinese tires that look like Michelin's and Yokohama's.

You want to save a few bucks, that's ok. But please, do not get fooled into thinking the product is made of the same stuff. And fwiw, remember that they have now, 3 different springs, with a older 4th version. And I am sure they will tell you how great they all are. But they certainly aren't all alike. And you've heard from a guy in this thread who has run mine and theirs back to back.

As for the giving out the advice, no it isn't the price of business. Ebay and Amazon sellers can't and don't.

At this point I think I need to figure out a way if people feel that advice isn't worth a damn early on, and if they think that, then just not give it if they don't think it has value.

BrntWS6

iTrader: (7)

I said they were similar and someone like me who drives their car for pleasure isnt going to notice. Its not like BMR is not a proven spring.

I help people to solve problems over the phone all the time. It costs me a service call then but people appreciate and remember that. Then they tell everyone they know about me and I get a lot more work later on because of it. And its the reason i have not spent $1 on advertising in 4 years. Goid luck charging for a "consultation " fee, i know personally i hang up the phone right then.

BMR Sales2

iTrader: (40)

Hmm... some interesting statements being tossed around in here. So let me address a couple of key points that I have seen brought up

First off, our springs are made 100% in the US by the oldest and largest spring manufacturer in the country. Betts springs. You can google who they are and what they do. There is no smoke and mirrors about this. We are able to price our springs better because we buy in large volumes from them. We literally order thousands of springs at a time, and they make all of our 112 different spring part numbers for us for for the 20+ product lines we make parts for.
We buy quantity, not sacrifice quality

This also allows us to stand behind all of our springs with a lifetime warranty. We guarantee our spring against sag, fatigue or breakage. I think in the nearly 5 years I have been here doing this, I have had to maybe warranty 1 spring. Not even 1 set, but 1 spring, and that was due to it rusting from salted northern roads.

We design and spec all of our springs in house and test them here as well. Including ones that no one else has made springs for, or with stark differences in design and rate than anyone else offers. So that should ease some of the internet rumors of how we design our springs.

That being said, we always keep our springs in stock and offer them at the best price. Our springs have been proven over the years by thousands of satisfied customers. I have run them on my personal daily driver paired with Koni shocks and couldn't be happier with the ride and stance.

If anyone has any questions or needs assistance with parts selection for your application, install , setup or trouble shooting, we are always here to help.

handyandy

^ This. Every service or sales business in the universe requires some degree of customer service, that may or may not lead to a sale. Does it suck when someone calls you up and talks for half an hour and doesn't buy anything? Sure. But there are other people that know what they want and just place orders without any questions.

All of the companies that support this platform have public phone numbers where people can call for questions. Basically Sam's whole premise is that his time is more valuable because he's so much smarter than the rest, and that whoever answers the tech calls at BMR or UMI or wherever don't have the same level of knowledge that he does. That may be true and it may not be true, but it's pretty presumptuous. And if it is true, that's what sets you apart, when a customer calls another vendor who can't give proper answers, and then call you and get those answers.

I really don't know who answers phones at the 'other' places because I've never called any for help before. But each vendor does their own R&D and has test/track cars with their parts, so it isn't like nobody there is knowledgeable.

I've read lots of other threads where you accuse BMR of stealing your spring rates because theirs are so similar to yours - so are they stealing your design, or are they just bad copies? What's specifically different/worse on their spring than yours? Is there some material or size difference that makes their 550 lb spring a "Chinese tire" vs your 550 lb spring that is a "Michelin"? Or is this just another baseless generalization?

JD_AMG

Sounds like you are assuming what Sam thinks rather than just reading what he actually writes. He said he is simply tired of people calling him [because he is known for his first hand experience racing and winning national champions with his setups, something no other vendor can attest to] getting his advise and then buying parts on ebay and amazon. How is this any different than calling up a known, respected custom engine builder(like Tony Mamo for example), Tony then stops what he is doing and gives his recommendation on a custom cam, and whole engine setup, then the caller hangs up and goes to summit racing to buy parts and comp to spec his cam. Would you keep giving away free engine build advice if this kept happening? The whole point in calling him is because he is known as the expert in his field, and if he gives all his info away for free bigger companies are just going to steal it, duplicate it and then he won't have a business anymore.

This is pretty arguable. There have been quite a few questionable posts through out the years here from some vendors.

BMR Sales2

iTrader: (40)

I'd gladly address them. As in previous questionings, we have the dated prototype, test revision and production design sheets on all of our springs. We in house design and spec them, send these specs out to have prototypes made by our manufacturer, test them on said car, then either revise or approve the design based on desired ride height, ride and performance. If we were just copying everyone's springs it would certainly make our lives a lot easier. We could cut out a lot of r&d time and paperwork. But we like doing it this way instead

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

I am so tired of this.

It is a fact that a certain company changed the spring design to a linear front/progressive rear a year or two after mine came out. It is a fact this happened after the Betts Springs rep came into my shop and told me they made your springs and would be happy to copy anything I gave them. So color me shocked you have drawings for those, that's what happens anytime someone makes anything original, or not. And the simple fact of the matter is the spring you have that is most like mine... that came well after mine and well after Mr. Suit from Betts walked into my shop. From there you can change the dates on any drawing you have, so that's not worth much. This is when I was having these made by Vogtland, before my change to Hyperco sourcing. It is a fact that a certain someone down there got on here and claimed the wire I was using wasn't in fact what I using (and btw, was wrong... though the wire has changed with my change to Hyperco anyway). And this is the same person that, along with others, was on here a few months ago telling more lies.

This my friends is the long and short of it: Run whatever spring you want. Everyone who makes springs will, I am sure, tell your their's are the best that is just how it is.

I would simple recommend you ask yourself a number of questions to sort through the claims. Has any company made other springs, or other version of springs for the car and claimed *those* were the best? If so, and there are examples of this, if the first version was the best, how is the later version better? And if it was the best, why change it? Ask yourself if you know the details of the spring, like who is building them, out of what materials. What is the variance of the springs vs nominal rate, etc.

I switched to Hyperco to build mine for three reasons. 1. Hyperco are made in the USA. 2. That shortened lead times for me. 3. Their winding and wire makes for super consistent springs which is why you see them on most cars in major race series. +/-2% of nominal. Eibach's RACE springs are only guaranteed to be withing 5%, and I am sure that is a tighter tolerance than cheaper springs. And yes, I has rated other springs to see where they land, and the last ones I did that were red came in @ 91.87% of the claimed rate. That is way more than 2% variance.

And ask how I know things like the maker of certain springs, because that's not something that some companies will admit to.

And to finalize on this one point. My springs have proven themselves time and again, and won stuff aside from being on the street. Anyone can make a video of a car on a track without competition or times to compare to from others and say, see these are better.

I use my SCCA, NASA, and Muscle Car event results to prove the product.

That's my piece.

Chrisingermany

So, OP. What springs you going to go with?

bigbomber5

Watch him say Eibach

JD_AMG

Funny I wasn't specifically talking about you guys, although being one of the worst offenders. Sounds like you have a guilty conscious, I didn't say anything about springs in my post. But we know where you got your "prototype" springs from anyway...

But you sure you wanna go there? I was specifically talking about giving bad/wrong advice.
You can start by replying to this recent thread that you ignored after specifically being called out in:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspensio...ol-thrust.html

Lets not forget about what happened about 8 threads down from here, one of the most unprofessional things Ive seen a vendor openly do on here, but I wasn't the least bit surprised considering the UMI name based web domains you guys still own.

black sky

iTrader: (3)

Irony in its purest form lol. That answer would have been a masterpiece.

handyandy

I've read plenty of what he writes, and I understand his frustration to an extent. If you're a consumer and you have done some research and know full well that you're buying a product elsewhere based on price, then I agree you're out of line to call up Sam for his advice on the product when you have no intentions from the start of buying from him. At the same time though, if potential customers call up with good intentions then it's his job to answer questions if he wants that customer. That's just how it works. No business has a 100% sales rate when they answer the phone. And if you posted a question online about how to go about getting some contracting work done on your house, I'm sure the first advice would be to get multiple quotes to compare based on price, quality of materials, what your confidence level is in that contractor, and then decide from there. Why would buying expensive performance car parts be any different?

The other part of it is that this whole narrative / discussion was steered this way by Sam, but began with him making a post in this thread trying to sell his products, and being upset someone posted a Summit link. How did we end up talking about people wasting his time on the phone and not buying stuff? It's basically because this is the way he steered the conversion to gain sympathy and show his plight. The OPer's question was what springs to buy, and if Sam wants to try and make a sale he's more than welcome to post a response giving the pros of his springs, but I don't get how him trying to solicit an internet sale (without being asked) turns into a debate about people calling him on the phone and wasting his time and playing the victim.

DANSBIRD

iTrader: (2)