14” brake rotar negative gains - Page 2 - LS1TECH - Camaro and Firebird Forum Discussion

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14” brake rotar negative gains

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Old 07-11-2018, 05:58 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by 98_1LE View Post
I dont hate brake upgrades, ive just done enough of them to realize the benefits are nothing to write home about on a street car. With stock calipers & rotors, race pads & tires, a fourthgen will stop with the best of them. At least once.

Like the OP, I discovered long ago there is a penalty for big brakes. Well a compromise.

I'll cite my source. Lou Gigliotti explained to me long ago, in the paddock at Motorsport Ranch, that drilled rotors just reduce weight. Modern pads dont outgas in the duration of a single stop. And slotted rotors give the worn brake pad material a place to go when the car is being driven hard, like on a road course.

I'm not here to argue. This is what I believe. Y'all are free to believe anything you like. But I encourage you to cite your experience and sources so others can make an educate decision.

EDIT: FWIW I was one of the early adopters of big brakes on fourthgens. I had the fifth set or so of the LG G-Stop brakes, and had these by 2004:

They are still on my car.

“At least once”

This isn’t a good argument. Consistency is important with braking. Even street pulls or spirited driving on a curvy road, pedal fade shouldn’t be a factor.

Do a couple 60 and 100-0s and you’ll feel brake fade. My point being is that even if there’s a slight improvement in braking power and/or consistency (not just your big one time) the mod is worth it.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:01 AM
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Fair enough. How many times have you experienced brake fade on the street?
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Old 07-12-2018, 11:06 AM
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If you are doing multiple 60-0 or 100-0 stops on the street and feel brake fade anytime OTHER than during brake pad bed-in process....you are doing something WRONG.

LS1 Fbody front brakes and stock rear brakes with HP+ front pads and Duralast rear pads stop my car JUST fine. Drilled and slotted take mass out of the rotor which is not what you want.
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Old 07-12-2018, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by smitty2919 View Post
Drilled and slotted take mass out of the rotor which is not what you want.
Drilling and slotting rotors would take very little weight from a rotor and you actually do want as little rotating mass as possible. If I could afford Carbon Ceramic rotors I would be all over them. They weigh 50% less and offer better durability and fade resistance and they don't rust!
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Old 07-13-2018, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by smitty2919 View Post
If you are doing multiple 60-0 or 100-0 stops on the street and feel brake fade anytime OTHER than during brake pad bed-in process....you are doing something WRONG.

LS1 Fbody front brakes and stock rear brakes with HP+ front pads and Duralast rear pads stop my car JUST fine. Drilled and slotted take mass out of the rotor which is not what you want.
I haven't had to do 60 or 100 to 0 stops on the street but have done many 100+ slow downs and felt quite a lot of fade in my old setup (EBC redstuff fronts with brembo blank rotors in stock size). They also warped pretty badly IMO (although a few on here have said it was pad buildup on the rotors even though I have never had that issue on any other car I've owned) which in and of itself is enough to make me want to get rid of the stock crap. So far I love my ats/c7 setup and it still isn't 100% dialed in yet but I can tell you its leaps and bounds better than the stock setup even with less aggressive pads and cheaper rotors. I never had very much braking confidence with the stock calipers and rotors even with aggressive street pads and quality rotors but with these I do.
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Old 07-13-2018, 07:56 AM
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Ironically the only car I've ever had fade issues with (not an f-body), also had EBC brake pads on it. When I did a lot of track days, we found AutoZone rotors held up as well or better than the expensive ones.
That said I am sure the big brakes are more reliable.
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:02 AM
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More brake over a LS1 setup is not needed on a street car.
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Old 07-13-2018, 02:46 PM
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I’m not gna argue here. Like I said, I just wanted to post up some numbers for anyone looking into doing this mod.

I’ll post up when I get everything installed but it’ll be a while.

At the least, if no braking improvement. They will compliment my wheels. I hate seeing a set of painted slider calipers behind a nice wheel. Ruins the image.
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Old 07-13-2018, 04:04 PM
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Thank you. Much appreciated.
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Old 07-13-2018, 06:53 PM
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All of the vehicle driving inputs are transferred to the road surface through your tires. Get the best tires you can afford, and get the best dampers you can afford to keep the tires in contact with the road surface. In addition, get your front and rear CoF values near the same value to not upset the factory ABS. For only a street car, I'd stick with the factory replacement blank rotors at both axles and a slightly more aggressive front pad (something like a DS2500 or Bobcat) that meets your noise/dust goals. In the rear, something like an Akebono ASP pad would be on the verge of too much brake force (causing rear axle brake hop under aggressive braking) without a prop valve, but most other rear pads I've tried are too hard.

For competition, you want the lightest calipers & smallest diameter rotors needed for the amount of heat your application will generate, then fit the smallest diameter wheel that safely fits over the caliper. I know of 2-piece 14" directionally vaned J-hook rotors that weigh ~17lbs with the hat , so larger diameter rotors don't necessarily mean more weight, but you generally get what you pay for. Still, even if the total rotor weight is less, any weight further out form the axle will increase your MOI and reduce your acceleration..., so again you're stuck with comparing how much rotor you need for the amount of heat you'll generate vs acceleration. You may find you don't like the tire compound options in that wheel diameter, in which case you need to go to a larger wheel. You will then need weigh (no pun intended) all the respective variables to see what works for you.

I switched from AFS 17x11 with Nitto 315/35/17 NT05 and Koni DA coilovers up front and rear Koni DA's on weight jackers, to F14, 315/30/18 Rival S, and Penske coilovers earlier this year and I am amazed by how much mechanical grip I was missing merely in daily driving conditions. Absolutely no changes to the brake system at all from the prior setup. I was however slightly disappointed with the Forgestar F14 18x11 weights at ~24lbs. Apparently Forgestar had a couple of failures on race tracks and they added a couple of pounds to make them stronger. Forgeline next time.

Last edited by JimMueller; 07-13-2018 at 06:55 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 07-13-2018, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by smitty2919 View Post
More brake over a LS1 setup is not needed on a street car.
i know this is nowhere near where this thread was intended, but i will argue this. i have grown very fond of my c6 conversion all around. the base c6 calipers are PROVEN to be much stronger than ls1 fbody calipers. stronger calipers mean they flex less. the c5 calipers do this as well i believe, they both have those ridges along the back. not to mention we can all agree that the slightly larger rear rotors on an ls1 fbody arent doing us any favors. so the upgraded 12.8" rotors up front will help a bit. not to mention that c5/c6 rotors are directional, helping with the heat just a little more than ls1 brakes. the larger rotor also offers more leverage for the calipers/pads to slow the car easier. there are absolutely no negative affects from this brake setup that i have seen, heard, or read. i think my calipers were 350 for the pair, you can go to auto zone and get these much much cheaper, but i didn't want the corvette lettering on my camaro, so i had to get new akebono calipers. the brackets can be had for 150 or less if you know where to look. then pick your rotor and pad of choice, with lines i was about 750 shipped i believe. i know the strano kit is a very good value, but the wilwood fronts and stock rear calipers just would drive me nuts not matching. my car stops pretty darn good. i give myself headaches. o and not running wheel spacers is nice with my 10 spokes.

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Old 07-13-2018, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 35thanni View Post
I’m not gna argue here. Like I said, I just wanted to post up some numbers for anyone looking into doing this mod.

I’ll post up when I get everything installed but it’ll be a while.

At the least, if no braking improvement. They will compliment my wheels. I hate seeing a set of painted slider calipers behind a nice wheel. Ruins the image.
they do look good tho. my biggest thing, i know its dumb, but seems like theres too much rigging up to fit the 5/6 gen brembos or c6 Z brakes cts-v etc. too much rigging for comfort. the c5/c6 base conversion is cutting your spindle, and bolting on a big thick bracket. thats it....... i can live with that

just noticed the caliper decals......did you get them from a guy in florida? look just like mine...think his name was brian idk

Last edited by Floorman279; 07-13-2018 at 07:42 PM. Reason: ........
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Old 07-13-2018, 09:36 PM
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In addition to the benefits of durability for racing (greater heat sink in rotor, beefier caliper, etc.), I've always thought the reason so many luxury/performance cars go for big brakes these days has to do with threshold braking. Now, most of us have ABS, so we aren't the ones doing the threshold braking--the ABS system is. It's more of a binary method of on-off-on-off to approach the threshold, but it is threshold braking nonetheless.

Let's say your steering wheel was spinning rapidly and you were attempting to regain control of the vehicle. Imagine how hard that would be to do by grabbing at the wheel hub/airbag in the center. You could do it, but it wouldn't be smooth. By contrast, if you gradually applied pressure to the rim of your steering wheel, where you have more leverage, you could slowly stop the rotation in a controlled manner. I believe the same concept applies to the big brake systems. Not only do you have increased leverage with an extended radius, but you have so much more control of the way the pad itself bites into the rotor in using a fixed caliper with 4 or 6 pistons to make sure that there is even pressure applied and surfaces stay parallel. With a sliding caliper and one or two pistons, the caliper may try to twist under heavy braking forces, one pin may slide easier than the other, the edge of the pad may bite into the rotor without good contact across the surface, one side of the caliper may do more of the braking, etc. If you've ever felt the extreme polarity of on-off under full ABS lockup, of brake-slip-brake-slip, then you know the limitations of the stock configuration.

As ultimate stopping power is limited by the grip of your tires (primarily the fronts), there is some logic in saying that the admittedly great stock LS1 brakes cannot be exceeded without sticky race tires. However, under full ABS lockup, I believe that the big kits are capable of maintaining a closer, sustained braking force up to, but not exceeding that limit of static friction. It isn't going to be much, but at high speeds, that could translate to a car-length or more, which can be huge, especially if there's already a car in that spot.
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Old 07-18-2018, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by 35thanni View Post


Factory horsepower is usually enough too unless you hit the track. Just sayin..
Thats why I mentioned the track....thats where it counts and where its needed.

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Old 07-18-2018, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by eb110americana View Post
In addition to the benefits of durability for racing (greater heat sink in rotor, beefier caliper, etc.), I've always thought the reason so many luxury/performance cars go for big brakes these days has to do with threshold braking. Now, most of us have ABS, so we aren't the ones doing the threshold braking--the ABS system is. It's more of a binary method of on-off-on-off to approach the threshold, but it is threshold braking nonetheless.

Let's say your steering wheel was spinning rapidly and you were attempting to regain control of the vehicle. Imagine how hard that would be to do by grabbing at the wheel hub/airbag in the center. You could do it, but it wouldn't be smooth. By contrast, if you gradually applied pressure to the rim of your steering wheel, where you have more leverage, you could slowly stop the rotation in a controlled manner. I believe the same concept applies to the big brake systems. Not only do you have increased leverage with an extended radius, but you have so much more control of the way the pad itself bites into the rotor in using a fixed caliper with 4 or 6 pistons to make sure that there is even pressure applied and surfaces stay parallel. With a sliding caliper and one or two pistons, the caliper may try to twist under heavy braking forces, one pin may slide easier than the other, the edge of the pad may bite into the rotor without good contact across the surface, one side of the caliper may do more of the braking, etc. If you've ever felt the extreme polarity of on-off under full ABS lockup, of brake-slip-brake-slip, then you know the limitations of the stock configuration.

As ultimate stopping power is limited by the grip of your tires (primarily the fronts), there is some logic in saying that the admittedly great stock LS1 brakes cannot be exceeded without sticky race tires. However, under full ABS lockup, I believe that the big kits are capable of maintaining a closer, sustained braking force up to, but not exceeding that limit of static friction. It isn't going to be much, but at high speeds, that could translate to a car-length or more, which can be huge, especially if there's already a car in that spot.
The difference in radius isn't the same as grabbing the steering wheel in the center.

And while it is true an old unmaintaned cliding caliper can bind on the pin, lets not act like the same isn't true for a piston getting stuck in a multi-piston setup.

Going a little further down the rabbit hole... Think about the effects of more and larger pistons, with the same master cylinder. More pedal travel is needed to displace enough fluid to produce the same pressure on the pads.
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Old 07-18-2018, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 98_1LE View Post
Think about the effects of more and larger pistons, with the same master cylinder. More pedal travel is needed to displace enough fluid to produce the same pressure on the pads.
All else remaining equal, if the total caliper piston area remains nearly the same between different caliper designs, then the travel should also be nearly the same, correct?

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Old 07-18-2018, 04:05 PM
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Correct
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 98_1LE View Post
And while it is true an old unmaintaned cliding caliper can bind on the pin, lets not act like the same isn't true for a piston getting stuck in a multi-piston setup.
Sliding calipers move on a bit of grease that is not sealed except for a couple of dust boots, grease which tends to dry out between pad checks/swaps unless they are very frequent. There also is no mechanism to counteract the tendency for the leading edge of the pad to bite into the rotor much more easily than the trailing edge. In contrast, caliper pistons are lubricated with brake fluid and completely sealed. Moreover, they are staggered in size to facilitate even pressure against the rotor. Even if caliper pistons were anywhere near as prone to binding as caliper pins are (they are not), sliding calipers also use pistons, so you'd just be left with two areas for that type of caliper to jam.

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Old 07-19-2018, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by eb110americana View Post
grease which tends to dry out between pad checks/swaps unless they are very frequent.
LULZ @ frequent.
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